Annealing

I always get accused of overthinking annealing...
So in general terms, I think about things this way.

1. Cleaning.
I wash/steel pin clean. No 'Smoke' rising and no crud getting cooked onto or into my brass.

2. I don't anneal for a particular 'Factory' brass hardness/softness.
I shoot used brass (once or more fired), so as long as the baseline is fairly consistent I'm good with that.
Some 'Factory' brass is really soft, some brass is really hard,
I perfer 'Mostly Soft' so the bullet/brass don't deform each other and I get consistant bullet retention in the neck.

3. Too much heat is more common than too little heat.
Since I normally work with steel, this one took nearly a year to sink into my head...
It wasn't until I worked with a brass engineer/metallurgist I found out about mono-chrystlline condition from overheating.
Couldn't figure out why my case hold on the bullet was all over the place.

4. You CAN heat the brass WAY TOO FAST!
Found that out with higher powered electrical (magnetic) annealing.
You CAN actually blow the neck off the case... Not to mention overheating the brass in the process.

5. Unless you heat VERY SLOW, I've never seen a need for heat sink or water bath. Brass doesn't 'Quench', air cooling is just fine.

Your experience or mileage may vary...
 
I bow to the wisdom and experience of Supercub99 and Jeephammer.

My problem is that I am conflicted with processing brass and annealing and how to get it done in an efficient order. I eliminate a cleaning step by sizing first.

The good cleaning system is the way to go with no question, but its another expense (and not cheap) drying needs, limited bench space ad nausea.

So I will run the experiment the other way and anneal after sizing and not the good cleaning that would be best.

I think I am much further ahead with the anneal if not the best.

I did have some neck slits, which got me to try a torch and I am almost certain I over did it.

No damage as it were other than neck tension was soft and not springy.

As noted before, accuracy after a point is a lot of small stuff adding up, I think I have most of the good stuff done and the improvement is beyond my shooting ability to see.

Of course if things change I may as well.

Its a learning adventure and no end to challenges
 
What I found before going to the wet tumble was with the powder cooked on the inside of the case and neck, the annealing (using an induction "Annie") was varying from case to case. By wet tumbling and getting the inside as clean as the outside, the annealing is the same with no variation in appearance. And, no smoke curling off an occasional case. Does it make a difference?...I don't know, tensions seating bullets are uniform to a T now so I would guess on the side of yea.
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I began annealing AFTER i had already been using a wet tumbler for a while. So by the time i started annealing, my brass was already cleaner than it is when you buy it new. But! when i was seating up my machine, i would use old, un-cleaned brass, to get the timing right before moving onto the actual brass I inteneded to anneal. This actually threw my timing off by 1 second or 2.

As I said in the OP of this thread, I use 750 Tempilaq inside the neck, 700 at the shoulder, and 450 degree Tempilaq about 1/2 way up the case to ensure no heat is migrating to the case-head. Well, with dirty brass it takes a second or two longer to get the 750 Tempilaq to melt than it did when the brass was clean. I assume the soot on the inside and outside of the neck, especially the inside, acted as some kind of heat buffer. I know this because the first few actual clean cartiriges I annealed were painted with Tempilaq too and they stayed in the flame for a 2-count despite the tempilaq being melted AND the tempilaq 450 stripe began to melt at the top with clean brass but not dirty brass meaning the heat migrated down faster. (Still nowhere near unsafe though).

So, then with the next batch, I decapped and wet tumbled 10 spare old worn-out cases and this time, the timing I established with the test cases was the same as the batch I was going to anneal.

Maybe in the end it doesn't matter, but I don't want the neck in the flame too long and I have yet to ruin a case. So if im going to take the time to try and get a consistent anneal, then this is what i think needs to be done.


Jeephammer is the annealing expert, and between him and some books is how i began developing my method...so his advice is worth considering.

RC20
So I will run the experiment the other way and anneal after sizing and not the good cleaning that would be best.
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I considered doing it this way as well. What sold me on annealing before sizing was how easy it is to get a consistent shoulder bump and neck size if you anneal before sizing....But this really only applies if you are annealing after every firing with match ammo. If you are annealing every 3rd firing or later, I think you can anneal at any point in the case prep process prior to priming. I would be a bit concerned with denting the neck though if you annealed after sizing the neck. My annealer drops the case sometimes right on the neck and while i have never checked, I imagine it could dent it a little.

It is for those reasons plus the consistent case sizing that I anneal before sizing...plus it is what ol' jeephammer recommended.
 
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Mississippi, just as aside, what do you think of the Annealeez? I've been thinking of adding it to my equipment.
 
4. You CAN heat the brass WAY TOO FAST!
Found that out with higher powered electrical (magnetic) annealing.
You CAN actually blow the neck off the case... Not to mention overheating the brass in the process.
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I remember, I said I had a carbon torch; and then I said the carbon torch would turn metal into puddles in a hurry. Back to "WAY TOO FAST!", I tried to cover that also while I was (trying to) discussing rules and factors; that was about the time I decided I am the only one that uses rules and factors.

F. Guffey
 
I considered doing it this way as well. What sold me on annealing before sizing
was how easy it is to get a consistent shoulder bump and neck size if you anneal before sizing....But this really only applies if you are annealing after every firing with match ammo. If you are annealing every 3rd firing or later, I think you can anneal at any point in the case prep process prior to priming. I would be a bit concerned with denting the neck though if you annealed after sizing the neck. My annealer drops the case sometimes right on the neck and while i have never checked, I imagine it could dent it a little.
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Not an issue with the Annie, its hand held not an automated machine (time yes) though I think Gerard as a setup they sell that works with an Annie.

Don't get me wrong, I think the clean first approach is better, but not workable for me right now due to cost and bench space and some time aspects.

I did find clean brass did not size as well as non cleared, that may be a procedure thing. Others have mentioned it as well.

But that is also vibratory cleared and may change with the tumbling and pins method. I do note the brass is not as shiny brassy with that (both my brother and once fired but pin cleaned I got ) . Not a tech issue but I love shiny brassy brass. I can adjust.

Not so sure that I would change where it falls in the process. My attempt at small holes are just for my satisfaction, entertainment or annoyance as it were than any competitive desire.

Its definitely rumbling around in the brain box.

If and when I go that route I will not change where as likely will use the vibratory until the anneal cycle.

All good discussion.
 
Mississippi, just as aside, what do you think of the Annealeez? I've been thinking of adding it to my equipment
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It is my first automatic annealer. So obviously I haven't tried all of the available ones on the market.

But I have found it adequate for my needs. It will quickly anneal more brass than I need it too. I am not a big volume shooter. I competed twice a month, F-CLASS so if I was doing 3 gun or steel's it may be a bit too slow for those folks.

Also, it uses a single torch so I'm not sure if that's too slow for say .40 s&w before getting heat to the case head.

But it does a very consistent job, is easy to set up, and very well made. I would absolutely buy it again.

Oh and it doesn't take up much bench space.

You have to get different wheel sets for small vs large cartridges. And if you screw up getting the flame too close during setup you could melt a wheel.
 
My wife bought me a Guiard & Annie combo after hearing me blabber on endlessly about annealing, and the two work pretty good together.
My biggest gripe is I can't use a case feeder, you have to hand stack brass in the bin.
Good wife! Just didn't know I had built several annealers already...

The biggest issue I have with electrical (magnetic) induction annealing is, if the unit is high powered enough you can blow the neck right off the brass!
At around 15kV you can remove most of the case in a millisecond, simply vaporizes the brass.
At around 2,000 watts you can melt the neck off the brass in less than 10 seconds.

So, with 600 to 1,000 watts, you can effectively anneal in about 1.5 to 3 seconds.
Any more power than that will SERIOUSLY overheat the neck/shoulder and go mono-chrystlline.

I don't have the graph in front of me, but TIME/Temprature (Time over Temperature),
Exposure time MUST go way down as temp of the brass increases.

The single most important guideline,
*IF* you see ANY 'Glow' of the brass, any hint of light radiation from the brass, it's ruined... PERIOD.

I did this wrong for YEARS, and when I started to study annealing of brass, still did it wrong for about a year since every single article I ever read said to get the brass to 'Glow', even to the point of being 'Cherry Red'.

The fact is, you WILL see a TEXTURE change on the surface, and the case might discolor, but if you see a 'Glow', the brass is seriously overheated and has gone mono-chrystlline.
You think you had stress line problems before, wait till you try and RE-load that brass a couple times...

Case neck tension, the 'Hold' the case keeps on the bullet, will be all over the place, and I've even had case necks crack AFTER they were loaded, just sitting on the bench, loaded cartridges that made a 'Tink' sound and the case neck split sitting there doing nothing...
THAT'S a seriously overheated case neck! (Yup! I was that bad at annealing!)

I can't stress enough, 800*F Templiq in the case neck!
Don't exceed 800*F. The point where most all cartridge brass goes Mono-chrystlline...

For the guys saying 750*F, you are right on the edge,
At 750*F you MUST get that case out of the flame FAST or you will exceed 800*F in a heartbeat!

Virtually all cartridge brass will anneal FULLY at about 700*F,
And I've not run into ANY brass that won't fully anneal at 730*F.
(With the exception of some WW II German brass, which I suspect wasn't actual cartridge brass in the first place, but I wasn't going to pay for chemical analysis for about 800 brass that wasn't going to be around long)

I haven't actually seen any American made brass, and the better European brass that wouldn't anneal pretty well at upwards of 650*F, not dead soft, but well below Rockwell B scale of 85, usually in the mid to upper 70s.
 
"I began annealing AFTER i had already been using a wet tumbler for a while. So by the time i started annealing, my brass was already cleaner than it is when you buy it new. But! when i was seating up my machine, i would use old, un-cleaned brass, to get the timing right before moving onto the actual brass I inteneded to anneal. This actually threw my timing off by 1 second or 2."

That was my experience. I saw a big change in time with the wet cleaned brass. My timing was around 1.9-2.0 sec with the annie. Now it's a solid 2.1 across the board.

My problem with sizing before cleaning is there is powder residue around the necks and that gets mixed with whatever lube you use. If you then anneal it, the mixed residue changes the heat process, often times the whiff of smoke off the neck and the variation in appearance. Nice clean brass, inside and out anneals nicely and then sizes very uniformly. I believe there is a surface friction component in there someplace. I may be anal though...lol
 
I do cleaning before anything other than occasionally decapping (universal decapping die doesn't require cleaning since the die body doesn't contact the brass so it doesn't scratch or grind the crud)

Clean, Anneal, Resize, Trim, Clean lube off & Polish when everything is 'Right' and I'm not going to wind up with die scratches/smears again.

I get better resizing when I anneal first, more consistant sizing if annealed first.

Some guys that anneal INSIST on the annealing showing, and that's fine by me,
I perfer a bright, fairly polished brass, don't care about annealing showing or not, I'm not annealing as a status symbol.

Level of polish completely depends on what I'm doing with the brass,
Practice/Range ammo I just want slick & clean,
Customer cases (I don't load for customers, too much liability), I usually put a pretty good polish on, I like them to look as good as Remington or Winchester brass when they go out, and since it's just time in the tumbler (in bulk) it doesn't bother me much.

I've seen reloaded rounds dirty as range brass left out in the weather, and I have to wonder if the guy knows that crud on the cases is going to get pressed into the chamber REALLY HARD when it's fired? Maybe not...

There are advantages to using poly drum cement mixers,
Fairly cheap, long lived motors, excellent weight carrying capicity, and I normally have them outside, spills, noise & dust aren't an issue.
Just set the timer & walk off, I'm lazy, I like that part!
 
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I have never done any annealing and have been reloading off and on since the early 90's.
The searching I have done on the subject says there's no wrong way to do it, so confusing.
Everyone does it different with success it seems.
 
I have never done any annealing and have been reloading off and on since the early 90's.
The searching I have done on the subject says there's no wrong way to do it, so confusing.
Everyone does it different with success it seems.
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I haven't been reloading that long, But I thought the same thing. However, everyone has seen how inconsistent bullet seating, sizing, and velocities become with older brass having had multiple reloads.

There are all kinds of opinions, and self-righteous / pretentious internet experts out there who will critique the way you wipe your @#$. The only thing you NEED TO remember is not to anneal the casehead, because that is a safety issue. The other important advice is do not over anneal the neck/shoulder because while it isn't the safety issue if annealing the case head, it will ruin the case.

Beyond that just read some books/manuals, listen to some suggestions from helpful annealers, and try it.

The simple socket/torch/drill method works. It isn't as consistent as a machine. But get some Tempilaq, and give it a shot.
 
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There are all kinds of opinions, and self-righteous / pretentious internet experts out there who will critique the way you wipe your @#$. The only thing you NEED TO remember is not to anneal the case head, because that is a safety issue. The other important advice is do not over anneal the neck/shoulder because while it isn't the fire safety issue if annealing the case head, it will ruin the case.
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After all of the space used on this forum and all the other forums it seems it is too late to discuss factors and rules. Factors, that was the first thing I did before I started annealing and then I established a few rules. That was 'back then' and now reloaders take off in a dead run.

F. Guffey
 
"...heat it to just cherry..." That'd be too hot. Just until the brass changes colour then tip. You tip 'em so you can handle 'em sooner.
Annealing isn't something you do on a schedule. It's only done when you get one cracked case neck. Rarely done, if ever, with pistol cases at all.
Anyway, this is one of the best articles on the net about annealing. Scientific and everything. http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
 
Factors, that was the first thing I did before I started annealing and then I established a few rules. That was 'back then' and now reloaders take off in a dead run.
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Reminds me of something I use in my work, or in math programming: Necessary and Sufficient conditions (Think proofs).
 
Swampy,
There were SO MANY articles written by people that had ZERO idea of what they were doing, and it became 'Folk Lore'...
'Old Wives Tales'...

I started with the old articles, found out pretty quickly that they simply didn't work.
It got MUCH worse when I started to manufacture brass from roll stock, lots of ruined EXPENSIVE brass.

Steel hardening/annealing rules don't apply with non-ferrous metals, and brass/bronze has its own quirks.

Most candles will NOT fully anneal, they don't get the case hot enough,
Alcohol burners won't either. Tried both and neither worked with any consistancy.
They will *Partially* anneal, but not fully anneal, and they won't give consistancy from case to case.

Open flame gas (Natural Gas, Propane, Butaine) WITHOUT a oxygen inducing 'Jet' nozzle is a little slower, but gives REMARKABLE consistancy.
This is probably why the big brass manufacturers used (and still use) this process for annealing necks during the forming process.

'Jet Nozzle' gas annealing is almost always done wrong, virtually always overheating the case necks at the very least.
Gas has to heat from the outside in, this is a 'Slow' process when done correctly.
The gas jet MUST be aimed at the shoulder/taper of the case and allow heat to 'Creep' into the neck.
If you heat the neck first, being thinner, WILL overheat before the taper/shoulder comes close to reaching proper target temperature.

Low/small flame with a jet torch aimed at the shoulder will get you reasonably consistant annealing.

'Hot Die' annealing (Electrical Resistance) is basically an electric stove burner coil heating a neck size die,
The case neck/shoulder is dropped into the die that has VERY precise temperature control, transfers heat into the case.

As for production volume annealing, this is the slowest way to do things,
But it's the most precise way since your heat can be precisely controlled.
Remember, even at 'Proper' annealing temperature, you CAN leave the case exposed to heat too long and have the case go mono-chrystlline.

Mono-Chrystlline happens when the case is BOTH overheated, or its exposed to heat high enough for too long a period of time...
The idea is to reach maximum annealing temperature and STOP,
NOT to heat the case longer that is MINIMALLY required.

The last way I know about is Electrical Induction (Magnetic Induction) annealing.
Since the very fast 'Flipping' magnetic fields move the brass alloy MOLICULES very quickly, the friction of those molicules rubbing on each other produce heat INTERNALLY.

This produces heat all the way through the brass at the same time, saturation is almost instantaneous.
It's also very energy efficient...

Since the TIME the brass is heated, it's very hard to have the case go mono-chrystlline... *IF* you DO NOT seriously overheat the brass in the first place.

Remember, mono-chrystlline comes from both seriously overheating,
AND from too long of exposure to heat source...
Time at temperature is the cause of mono-chrystlline condition,
The higher the temp, the faster the brass will go mono-chrystlline.

Now, electrical induction (magnetic) keeps 'Grains' moving so the grains space back out where they belong with electrical annealing to a point where they are hard to distinguish from new brass.
That is a big plus to electrical annealing.

It most certainly IS possible to overheat brass with high power electrical induction (magnetic) annealing!
Even with molicules vibrating and moving, you most certainly can have cases go mono-chrystlline, so a little bit smaller unit taking a little longer to anneal gives you MUCH more consistant, better annealed brass.

The basics of the old time, constantly repeated articles are flawed, and there is never a mention of mono-chrystlline or a specific target hardness you are trying to reach.

Keep this in mind,
When the brass reaches you NEW, it's never been fired,
Brass that has never been exposed to heat AND pressure at the same time can anneal back down to 'Dead Soft' (Very close to Rockwell B scale of about 65).

Once that brass is exposed to heat AND pressure of firing, and case bob has been introduced to the brass alloy from the firing cycle,
It's virtually impossible to get back down to 'Dead Soft',
The brass will more than likely go mono-chrystlline before it annealer to 'Dead Soft'...

With a 'Good' system of annealing, your once (or more) fired brass will anneal down to '1/4 Hard' (Rockwell B scale of 73-75)
In comparison, a LOT of brand new military brass shows up around Rockwell B 80-85 depending on manufacturer,
Even though the base brass alloy is chemically the same as civilian brass.
The military likes their brass a little harder, so they simply don't soften it as much before they load it...

Since 'New' brass is only 'New' once, I shoot 'Once' (or more) fired brass,
And it's pretty easy to get brass back down to Rockwell B of 75-80, even with home made equipment.

The target *Should* be CONSISTANT instead of 'Dead Soft'.
1/4 Hard shoots just as well as Dead Soft, and is a LOT more practical.
Consistancy is MUCH more important that some specific, almost unattainable Rockwell number.

I don't send a lot of brass out for chemical & grain analysis.
I wish I had the facilities or could afford it, but I don't have an 'Friendin a metallurgical lab anymore...
I'd very much like to know at what particular point each type/caliber brass goes mono-chrystlline.
 
Most candles will NOT fully anneal, they don't get the case hot enough,
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There are simple rules to follow when annealing, if you were familiar with a few of the rules you would know the above statement should be listed under 'Old Wives tales' and then there are factory to consider, or not?

F. Guffey
 
After 45 years of heat treating metals-both ferrous and non-ferrous, as a jeweler, cutler, gunsmith- I have never heard the term "micro crystalline" (the correct spelling) used.
I'm not a reloader, but have been around guns all my life. When annealing brass, I assume you want it dead soft-otherwise you are "tempering" rather than annealing. This is done quite simply by heating the brass to red.
If you heat the brass much past red, you will have a melted blob of brass, and I don't see how it could possibly be "micro crystalline," as that blob of brass can be worked just like any other brass. Brass cases start out as a blob of melted brass which is then worked, punched/formed. Why isn't it micro crystalline then? And what, exactly, does brass do when this happens, if it happens at all?
Some people put way too much thought into annealing brass-a very simple process- not mystical magic.
 
I have never done any annealing and have been reloading off and on since the early 90's.
The searching I have done on the subject says there's no wrong way to do it, so confusing.
Everyone does it different with success it seems.
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Jeephammer had the long version.

I have the short one. There are many ways to screw it up, some unsafe (bases getting annealed) and others don't hurt.

There are few ways to do it right and it takes serious attention to detail to do so.

There are a lot of people who will tell you cherry red is perfect, with a straight face. They believe it. They are wrong.

The only good news is that cherry red neck in water is not dangerous and they just have brass that will get 1" for accuracy at best, but its not a safety issue.

I suppose the really over the edge unsafe and daring ones blow themselves up and we do not hear from them.
 
JeepHammer said:
The last way I know about is Electrical Induction (Magnetic Induction) annealing.
Since the very fast 'Flipping' magnetic fields move the brass alloy MOLICULES very quickly, the friction of those molicules rubbing on each other produce heat INTERNALLY.

This produces heat all the way through the brass at the same time, saturation is almost instantaneous.
It's also very energy efficient...
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I'm afraid that is not how induction heating works.

The changing magnetic field going through the brass induces electric current (called eddy currents) in the brass. Heat is generated because of the current (electron flow) interacts with resistance in the metal. Metal molecules (not MOLICULES) are excited as electrons collide with them. They are not excited directly by the magnetic field, as food gets hot in microwave oven. So basically the mechanism is similar to conventional electric resistive heating. The difference is distribution of electric current in the metal.

Induction heating has a lot of advantages for annealing brass. It is a neat method that allows precise control, no doubt. But I'm not convinced it is the best, or even the only, method. The definition of "good", "better", and "the best" depends on a lot of things.

-TL
 
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