Advice for a HS teacher who can now carry in class
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Doc Holliday 1950
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High School kids are not totally stupid. If they get a whiff that you're carrying it will go like wild fire through out the school. As I understand this, Teachers in your state can carry. You can carry a 3" 357 or a 2" 357 (make sure that this is SS and not steel /poly).very comfortably and hidden if you have the right holster and attitude. I would consider, brand new (can't believe I'm saying this) a Taurus, or Rossi 357 mag 2" or used S&W or Ruger 2 or 3 " The only time I screwed up was when I was an Aux LEO going to a dance and got too close to my dance partner. Before I could say Jack Daniels, everyone knew I was carrying.
That being said, Your students eventually will know that you are carrying and this is the real crux of your problem. Perhaps you can suggest to your Principal
that he/she spreads the rumor that all teachers are carrying. That might take the heat off you. I'm a 357 mag nut. this is my choice. there are 327's and (9mm resolvers out there that will do the trick. I strongly suggest that you don't get a semi auto. unless you feel great about having a gun with no safety on it locked and loaded vs. a wheel gun that only goes bang when you fire it.
best of luck.
Doc
That being said, Your students eventually will know that you are carrying and this is the real crux of your problem. Perhaps you can suggest to your Principal
that he/she spreads the rumor that all teachers are carrying. That might take the heat off you. I'm a 357 mag nut. this is my choice. there are 327's and (9mm resolvers out there that will do the trick. I strongly suggest that you don't get a semi auto. unless you feel great about having a gun with no safety on it locked and loaded vs. a wheel gun that only goes bang when you fire it.
best of luck.
Doc
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I disagree that it is impossible to keep them from knowing you are carrying as long as you aren't breaking up fights. I only worked as a substitute for a short period between jobs in a HS, but I certainly wasn't getting in the middle of any fights. Some of the students were almost 20 years old. I also wasn't carrying.
You really shouldn't be making much physical contact with students. You shouldn't be unholstering on school property. Like others said, your response time needs are probably going to be quite slow. I would go as far as considering a trigger lock and I don't use a trigger lock on any firearms. Or, if you have your own classroom with a closet, a bolted down safe that is covered with folders and never opened. Even just in my vehicle. I would never carry with my normal crossbreed super-tuck as a teacher. It would be asking for trouble.
You really shouldn't be making much physical contact with students. You shouldn't be unholstering on school property. Like others said, your response time needs are probably going to be quite slow. I would go as far as considering a trigger lock and I don't use a trigger lock on any firearms. Or, if you have your own classroom with a closet, a bolted down safe that is covered with folders and never opened. Even just in my vehicle. I would never carry with my normal crossbreed super-tuck as a teacher. It would be asking for trouble.
Andy Blozinski
New member
You should not be concerned about quickly drawing at all. The incident would most likely not start 10 feet away from you. You'll likely have plenty of time to get your weapon deployed and ready to deal with what you assess needs to be done.
You should take advantage of this to do your utmost to make your weapon not just concealable, but not suspected to be present in common physical contact situations.
So far ankle carry or pocket carry seems the best to me. You can get pocket carry holsters that really blur out or even square out your weapon. If it gets contacted in a rowdy disciplinary scuffle, you could pass it off as an electronic device in your pocket. Get a pocket holster that enhances this illusion. Sealing off the pocket so it can't fall out or be easily taken is a good idea too. Don't be afraid to get something modified to seal it off with velcro or a zipper.
Here's a big one that no one has even hinted at.....
***You should consider a magazine fed auto-loader and NOT have a round in the chamber*****
If you're worried about negligent discharge or a student grabbing it...you just lowered the danger factor hugely by doing this. Again, you are hardly likely to be in a quick draw McGraw wild west fast draw shoot-out. If you can pull your weapon in single digit seconds, rack the slide and be ready to assess, you're good to go.
Forget about penetrating body armor with a pistol. What you should consider is that, unless they're wearing hard plate armor, most pistol rounds will temporarily incapacitate a person if you dump into their kevlar vest. If you can plough half a mag of 9mm rounds into their chest, they're going to be SO screwed up they're taken down anyways.
You should take advantage of this to do your utmost to make your weapon not just concealable, but not suspected to be present in common physical contact situations.
So far ankle carry or pocket carry seems the best to me. You can get pocket carry holsters that really blur out or even square out your weapon. If it gets contacted in a rowdy disciplinary scuffle, you could pass it off as an electronic device in your pocket. Get a pocket holster that enhances this illusion. Sealing off the pocket so it can't fall out or be easily taken is a good idea too. Don't be afraid to get something modified to seal it off with velcro or a zipper.
Here's a big one that no one has even hinted at.....
***You should consider a magazine fed auto-loader and NOT have a round in the chamber*****
If you're worried about negligent discharge or a student grabbing it...you just lowered the danger factor hugely by doing this. Again, you are hardly likely to be in a quick draw McGraw wild west fast draw shoot-out. If you can pull your weapon in single digit seconds, rack the slide and be ready to assess, you're good to go.
Forget about penetrating body armor with a pistol. What you should consider is that, unless they're wearing hard plate armor, most pistol rounds will temporarily incapacitate a person if you dump into their kevlar vest. If you can plough half a mag of 9mm rounds into their chest, they're going to be SO screwed up they're taken down anyways.
She was indeed negligent on two counts.
1. She violated Granite School District policy that requires the concealed carrier to keep the weapon on their person at all times while on school property. Due in part to this first act of negligence,
2. She unintentionally discharged the weapon.
She accepted a plea deal on a misdemeanor charge of unlawfully discharging a firearm in the city. This was a clear admission of negligence on her part. She also had to buy the school a new toilet and pay a fine.
Only question remaining: Did she get to keep the toilet?
Someone suggested that it is not a good carry gun. I don't know why it wouldn't be, if you have strong hands. It's reliable and there's NO CHANCE that you will accidentally make it go off even if you grab the gun with your finger on the trigger. It will take a lot more than that to pull the trigger back!
gbclarkson
New member
I am an educator and I would not carry while teaching. My first and most important task is to develop relationships with children and I don't think that I could also perform the dual role of armed school security. My relationships with students depend on physical proximity and a concealed gun would definitely influence the area of my comfort zone. School shootings are horrible events to be certain but significantly less likely to occur than an armed teacher losing credibility before his or her students because he or she has been exposed as an armed guard. If forced to arm myself at school I would consider keeping a revolver locked in my desk. Never on my person, though.
Oddly, I carry as often as allowable when travelling with my 8-year old.
Oddly, I carry as often as allowable when travelling with my 8-year old.
Once your reason for concealed carry goes from self defense to protection of your classroom, I can't help but think a whole lot more professional training is in order, and from that training, you will come up with answers to your own questions. That you gave more priority to penetrating body armor than unintentionally pentetrating doors and barriers with innocents behind them leads me to believe that this hasn't been discussed with a professional trainer. To assume the responsibily that goes beyond protecting yourself is to assume the responsibility to take the additional training that goes with it.
zincwarrior
New member
Again, have you considered boot carry? That would be difficult to get loose, and at the same time be quite concealed vs. random close contact (because it would feel like, a boot.
You would not be able to draw fast. But like everything it is a compromise and you're likely to have warning (or its too late anyway).
OT: but I wouldn't do a thing physically to break up a fight in high school. That sounds like an opportunity to be sued and fired.
You would not be able to draw fast. But like everything it is a compromise and you're likely to have warning (or its too late anyway).
OT: but I wouldn't do a thing physically to break up a fight in high school. That sounds like an opportunity to be sued and fired.
Cosmodragoon
New member
I think a running question in this thread is the purpose of carrying as a teacher. Is it to be a guardian for the school or for the self and those who happen to be in the inescapably immediate proximity? Generally, concealed carry is a matter of the latter. The recent national debate over teachers carrying has been complicated from the start by the injection of the former.
As per relationships, there is nothing odd about that difference. Your child is yours. That type of relationship is very different than that of lots of other people's children in an institutional environment.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Yeah, then you get in the middle of one of these scuffles and kid grabs your leg. Feels the gun. How the hell are you going to retain the firearm on your ankle? No way I would go ankle. Somewhere on my torso where I have retention methods that apply as long as I am conscious.
Stay out of high school scuffles. The adults always lose, and if one of these kids hits me, even accidentally, I am quite sure the cop side of me would appear and he would be put down.
The law requires calling security. That's what I do. If the kid is literally being beaten to death, I'd step in. But in my 10 years, I've never seen that serious. High school fight.
The law requires calling security. That's what I do. If the kid is literally being beaten to death, I'd step in. But in my 10 years, I've never seen that serious. High school fight.
zincwarrior
New member
As a Texan, someone grabs my boot in a scuffle they are getting the boot to the head as a reminder that one shouldn't grab your boot.
No, seriously though, that argument can be made for any location. Why on earth would you be in a high school scuffle? teachers don't do that anymore, at least not in the district my kids went through. They call security and stay out of it. They don't want to be hurt, or sued, or disciplined for getting physically involved. I can't blame them, I wouldn't either.
EDIT: Just as Homerboy said, and sounds like he has experience.
Reasons and responsibilities are comingled. The teacher’s reason for carrying is self defense. But teachers are responsible for the safety of their students as well.
Should additional training be required to carry in schools? Nobody is supposed to know you are carrying in the first place, so any additional training beyond what it takes to get your concealed carry permit must be voluntary.
We do have “guardians” in our schools. Local cops regularly visit our K-12 schools and state police are assigned full-time to our public college campuses. While it may be comforting, it’s not enough. LE does not prevent crime so much as it deals with the aftermath of it. That’s why we insist on the right to defend ourselves in the first place.
The OP is moving to Utah, a shall issue state. In the interest of self defense, every citizen of Utah who can legally own a firearm has the right to a concealed carry permit upon completion of required paperwork, training, and payment of related fees. Holding a permit and carrying a weapon does not mean you go looking for trouble, but if an armed assailant comes into your classroom there is no avoiding it.
Complicate this by talking higher ed. Now you have several students in any given classroom who are legally armed as well. If a shootout should ever happen, it may become difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Chew on that one…
"2 hours and 1 shot fired from a .22 revolver (single action) at a target 8 feet away - that was my training to get a permit."
That's exactly 2 hours and 1 round more than we need in PA! Kinda bothers me a bit.
Back to teachers.........Never seen a serious fight in 10 years of teaching. Hmmm....must be an Amish elementary school. In 23 years I have seen and broken up some serious fights. As the person directly responsible for your students' safety, you could be sued just as readily if you let a fight continue and someone gets hurt.
That's exactly 2 hours and 1 round more than we need in PA! Kinda bothers me a bit.
Back to teachers.........Never seen a serious fight in 10 years of teaching. Hmmm....must be an Amish elementary school. In 23 years I have seen and broken up some serious fights. As the person directly responsible for your students' safety, you could be sued just as readily if you let a fight continue and someone gets hurt.
The answer should be gun is for "self defense only and nothing else". You can't act like a cop and safely defend large numbers of unrelated people without specialized training exceeding that of an ordinary patrolman AND a guaranty of sovereign immunity.
But, if you are caught carrying a gun and only using it to defend yourself against some kind of armed attack where others were killed (but you saved yourself), WATCH OUT - because you will be destroyed in the media. And, these days, being destroyed in the media means that you will automatically lose your job, lose your career, be brought up on criminal charges and also sued by anyone who died or was injured in the incident.
Until we have something like the "castle doctrine" protections for those who choose to carry guns to protect themselves and others, I see nothing good that can come out of it for the individual teacher.
Yes, you probably are better off with some sort of body armor hidden under your desk.
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