Advice for a HS teacher who can now carry in class

[Homerboy]

Yes. I'm saying she shouldn't have been fired. She wasn't playing with the gun. She was sitting on the toilet. If you want teachers to double as security guards then you gotta back them up. She didn't shoot herself. The bullet hit the floor and fragmented and she got a few nicks. 16 years of service wasted. She wasn't being reckless. She made a mistake in an area that nobody could have gotten hurt.

You're saying you are gonna be breaking up fights on a daily basis? What if you feel a hand near your weapon and you try to prevent it, and the gun goes off? Should you be fired? The kid is never gonna admit to trying to take the gun. And maybe he wasn't. But you don't know that.

And if I went to my range on a weekend( I don't anymore due to the unsafe idiots I see there) there would be about 60% of the shooters being in incompetent with their weapons. Should we take their guns too? I'm all for that by the way. I doubt many here are.

And somebody else said something that I hadn't even thought of. You gotta have a retention holster in a school setting with hundreds of kids. And you can't conceal a gun with a retention holster.

 

[DanTSX]

Yes. I'm saying she shouldn't have been fired. She wasn't playing with the gun. She was sitting on the toilet. If you want teachers to double as security guards then you gotta back them up. She didn't shoot herself. The bullet hit the floor and fragmented and she got a few nicks. 16 years of service wasted. She wasn't being reckless. She made a mistake in an area that nobody could have gotten hurt.

You're saying you are gonna be breaking up fights on a daily basis? What if you feel a hand near your weapon and you try to prevent it, and the gun goes off? Should you be fired? The kid is never gonna admit to trying to take the gun. And maybe he wasn't. But you don't know that.

And if I went to my range on a weekend( I don't anymore due to the unsafe idiots I see there) there would be about 60% of the shooters being in incompetent with their weapons. Should we take their guns too? I'm all for that by the way. I doubt many here are.

And somebody else said something that I hadn't even thought of. You gotta have a retention holster in a school setting with hundreds of kids. And you can't conceal a gun with a retention holster.

Guns don't "just go off".

It's called responsibility for her actions, or lack of actions. She didn't get thrown under the bus. She walked right out in front of it.


If you cannot safely carry a firearm in a school environment, you don't belong armed in the school environment.



If some idiot ND's on the range, they lose their privilege too. it sounds like your gun club is welcoming of unsafe gun handlers, no wonder they seem to congregate there......

 

[DanTSX]

OP, have you ever taken the selections for police service,mas opposed to teaching?

 

[stubbicatt]

Undershirt "shoulder holster."

A couple of issues that spring to mind.

1) You don't want anybody to know you are carrying. Unless every teacher is carrying, a school shooter will seek you out first, as you are the only threat. Unless I am mistaken, most school shootings are the work of students or perhaps other faculty members who have gone off the reservation. You don't want them to seek you out first because they know you are armed.

2) It seems to me that the quick presentation and firing training most of us have had might not necessarily be applicable to an active gunman scenario in a school shooting. By this I mean, unless they are looking for you in particular, you will likely hear shots fired elsewhere in the building, and depending on your plan of action, you will either hunker down with the students in your classroom, or go seeking the gunmen elsewhere in the building. This gives you adequate time to remove your piece from deep concealment, get your spare magazine ready, and do what you have planned to do.

3) I don't know who made it, but I have this undershirt which has two pockets, one under each arm pit, which are large enough to easily conceal a Glock 19. Each pocket is sort of sealed up by a strip of velcro. One would have to unbutton his outer garment to remove his pistol, and this would take time of course. But one could readily stash a couple of magazines in one of the pockets, and the pistol in the other.

The major benefit as I see it, to the use of this undershirt holster, is that nobody would bump you and discover the hidden piece, nor would it be revealed in the ordinary course of your work day, unless for some reason your arms were over your head, your outer shirt were particularly tight, or someone were able to touch you under your arm pit. There is no retention issue when you break up school fights, as the pocket is sealed pretty well, and the over garment adds a certain additional security.

My $.02

 

[Cosmodragoon]

Two quick responses:

Accidental discharge? How many "accidental discharges" are "accidental" versus "negligent"? When it comes down to it, most are probably the former. No harm is intended but either due attention is not given or proper safety protocols are not observed. It takes less than a second for a lapse to seriously and irreversibly change lives. If a person doesn't understand the reality of that responsibility, then they should refrain from exercising the right.

Body Armor? First, let's all understand that defense scenarios in which we need a firearm are relatively rare. If such a scenario does occur, the odds that it will be terrorism are relatively small. If you do end up facing terrorism, the odds that the terrorist will be wearing armor are relatively small. If the terrorist is wearing armor, what are the odds on armor type and coverage? As you can see, we are really focusing down on an extremely minute probability for a very special specific case. The right tools for this specific case are not necessarily the right tools for the general and much more likely case.

 

[Homerboy]

Guns don't "just go off".

It's called responsibility for her actions, or lack of actions. She didn't get thrown under the bus. She walked right out in front of it.


If you cannot safely carry a firearm in a school environment, you don't belong armed in the school environment.



If some idiot ND's on the range, they lose their privilege too. it sounds like your gun club is welcoming of unsafe gun handlers, no wonder they seem to congregate there......

My gun club is a private club. Members get the combo to the gate and can shoot between 9 AM and dusk. There is no range officer assigned to monitor, other than on Sundays when it is trap shooting day. And I have seen goofballs at pretty much every range I have been to. And don't get me started on gun stores!

And I agree if you can't safely carry a weapon in a school, that you shouldn't be armed in a school. No need to take her job. Take away her carry privledges. Reprimand her in some other way. By her principal's account, she was a fine teacher. So why should the kids lose one like that? She wasn't waving it around class or the faculty room. Lose her livelihood? Nope.

I'd go a step further and say if you can't safely handle a weapon, that you shouldn't carry one at all. But nobody here would support that. How many people here have had negligent discharges? or not even an ND. Just did something stupid. handled a weapon during a ceasefire at a range? Swept the clerk at the gun shop counter? Been armed in a bar?


I never followed the story other than the initial article, but I hope for this woman's sake that the school allowed the carry in response to Newtown, like others did, and I highly doubt they did any sort of training for the teachers. Carrying armed to protect yourself is NOT the same as carrying armed to be a protector of children. Does Utah even have a required course to show proper gun handling before getting a permit? I know here in PA, you don't need a thing. I saw a mentally challenged person walking around with a cocked and locked 1911. This woman might literally have had NO experience with a firearm.

The OP would know more about the qualifications the school mandates.

As for negligence in gun handling, go to your local range and tell me how many bullet marks you see on the walls, floors, and ceilings. You're telling me they were AIMING at the ceiling? Just because nobody got hurt, does that make it any less negligent? They obviously pulled the trigger when they didn't intent to. How many people here have been hit by bullet fragments at a range? it was either here or on another forum a couple of days ago that a poster talked about it. Lots of people commented it happened to them, too. Were they shooting at steel plates too close? What kind of ammo was being used? Sounds negligent to me!

Police locker rooms have bullet holes in wall too. Ask me how I know that.

Bill Jordan, Marine Colonel, Border Patrolman, and survivor of many shootouts, not to mention a world class shooter, shot and killed a colleague while sitting at his desk. Did he lose his job? Nope.

I have kids in school, too. Their school doesn't allow teachers to carry. I'm a retired cop and a teacher now and I wouldn't carry at work if they allowed me. Too much can go wrong.

And frankly, this thread is kind of loopey. Carrying armor piercing bullets? Briefcases that turn into body armor? Taking head shots? How's he gonna do that while 300 screaming kids are in his line of fire, and he is scared out of his mind? What if he tries to shoot a bad guy and hits a kid (likely, almost guarenteed)? Is he negligent that he didn't check his background? What's one of the cardinal rules of safe gun handling again? Know your backstop? Sounds negligent to me!

Just get a good pocket holster and call it a day. There is no perfect solution to his problem, although he is hoping to find one.

And if he wants a gun choice, I say Ruger LC9-S. Light and thin. 9 MM (better than .380). manual safety AND a magazine disconnect. Personally, I would carry one round chambered, and 7 round magazine out of gun in another pocket. Gun grabs will not be an issue since the gun is deactivated. I can pocket carry mine easily. I think the velcro sewn into the top is a great idea to keep the pocket closed.

 

[jonnyc]

I've been a HS teacher for 23 years now. I work in a red-necky district in a red-necky part of PA, and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that we would allow CC, if the state would allow it (probably not too likely). With that in mind, I have given this issue a bit of thought.

-I am known as a gun-friendly teacher and it would probably be assumed that if carry was allowed I would.
-Kids can be pretty "bumpy" and touchy/feely, and would soon know who carried in a conventional manner.
-The chances of needing a "quick-draw" are much lower than the possibility of a good amount of time to get the gun in hand.
-A powerful, knock-down, penetrating round is unlikely to be needed, considering the environment and the psychology of most potential school shooters.

With all that in-mind, I'm thinking that I would seriously consider my P32 or a Beretta 71 in deep concealment or a closed pocket.........leaning towards the Beretta.

 

[GEARHEAD_ENG]

JonnyC has some good points there.

I own a Kahr CM9 and would argue that its hard to find a smaller/lighter 9mm in such shootable package. Using a Ramora Sticky Holster, it won't turn or move around.

If you have access to a sewing machine, its very easy to add a 1/4" stip of white velcro to the top of the pocket lining as mentioned earlier. While you're at it, sew an internal divider in the opposite pocket for a 7 round mag.

 

[AK103K]

I don't know who made it, but I have this undershirt which has two pockets, one under each arm pit, which are large enough to easily conceal a Glock 19. Each pocket is sort of sealed up by a strip of velcro. One would have to unbutton his outer garment to remove his pistol, and this would take time of course. But one could readily stash a couple of magazines in one of the pockets, and the pistol in the other.

I have one of these as well, mine is made by Kramer, its called the "Confidant". They work very well, and you can easily carry a full sized gun under a tucked in full cut dress shirt. I find them to be more comfortable than your typical shoulder type holster too, as they distribute the weight better, and the gun doesnt really move like they do in the shoulder holsters.

I also have a 5.11 undershirt holster, and dont recommend them. With the Kramer, you can wear your normal tee shirts under it, and the Confidant is not seen, so it gives a more natural/normal appearance. With the 5.11, the holster is the tee shirt (its also polyester, and makes me sweat like a pig), and it limits you to either white (super bright white) or blue. I have the white, and it looks like I just got out of Paris Island when you wear it with an open collar. As for carrying the gun, they just have a pocket, with no straps, and the gun moves around a lot in the pocket, which is annoying.

I had and used the Confidant before I got my Smart Carry's. Given the choice today, the Smart Carry's get the nod. I havet used the Confidant since I got my first Smart Carry. With traditional carry positions, while people may inadvertently or intentionally bump frisk you (if youre not paying attention and allow it), it would be very unlikely with the Smart Carry, unless youre accustomed to people grabbing or patting your crotch. Its also not some place most would look for a gun if they were looking. At least here in the US, people are conditioned not to look at peoples groin area (not that they are likely to see it anyway, even if they were to stare), so it really is a great spot.

It holds the gun very securely, even if youre very active. Im a lot more active than most at work, and its never once given me the feeling it was not secure. Its also the cleanest holster Ive ever used, hands down. Every other method Ive ever used needs constant attention to keep both the gun and holster free from dirt and dust bunnies. Guns carried in the Smart Carry always seem to be as clean as they went in, when you take them out.

 

[longlane]

Desantis or Sticky Pocket Holster w/ a Glock 42

See what I did there? Holster first, gun second? Yeah. Cause that's the only way I'd ever carry in a high traffic, high intensity, high likelihood of being studied in various positions environment. Ever carried around a child? They will find it nearly regardless of where or how---but not pocket carry in the right holster. "That's my phone" or "that's my wallet" can go a long way if someone does say something.

All that said--what happens when students with nefarious intent create a list of adults carrying in the school and shares that info widely? What happens when you get pushed, trip, and fall against a wall and are knocked out? Just created availability, access, and we won't get into liability. What happens when some doofus who never had any common sense to begin with but becames a teacher through whatever parallel entry mechanism dreamed up in the latest teacher shortage talks about his/her carry gun with students to gain "cred", "trust", or "cool points" with their "hard to reach students"?

I still don't buy the guns in schools idea as being a good one. A student crazed enough to carry out the tragedies that have already happened isn't going to be slowed by the idea or possibility of being shot by a ccw. A nutso ideologue with a mission isn't going to be slowed either.

 

[Dragline45]

I still don't buy the guns in schools idea as being a good one. A student crazed enough to carry out the tragedies that have already happened isn't going to be slowed by the idea or possibility of being shot by a ccw. A nutso ideologue with a mission isn't going to be slowed either.

I guess we should all just sell our guns then and wave the white flag, because a criminal hell bent on doing crime isn't going to be slowed down by the possibility of being shot. See how ridiculous that sounds? These aren't trained killers we are talking about, they are teenage punks who got a hold of daddies gun. Most of these shooters end up turning the gun on themselves the minute a police presence is in the school, because they are too cowardly to engage anyone other than innocent unarmed kids.

 

[FITASC]

f you want some advice, I'm a retired cop and I have been teaching high school for 10 years. I know you have the new teacher "I'm gonna change the world" feeling, but that will wear off by Christmas. And I can tell you that unless a kid is literally being beaten to death, that I am not putting my hands on one of them. The schools will not back you, especially if you are not tenured. I've seen way too many teachers get jammed up even though the bad the best intentions. "Did you have to push him back so hard?" " You're a grown man and he's a child". Then they sue the school and the school always settles.

As for me, if they allowed me to carry I doubt I would. First they'd have to pay me more to take on the responsibility and liability. But also, I doubt I could keep it a secret. Somebody would find out. And the first kid I threw out would pull the "I was afraid he was going to shoot me".

As another who taught for a while, I agree. No way I would carry in a school; NOTHING remains a secret and they WILL throw you under the bus if an incident happens. If you are that concerned about fights in the high school, perhaps elementary or middle might be a better choice - personally a LOVED teaching first graders - they actually wanted to be in school.........

 

[Theohazard]

Yes. I'm saying she shouldn't have been fired. She wasn't playing with the gun. She was sitting on the toilet.

How do you know that? Are you claiming that the gun just decided to fire on its own? No, either she was handling the gun or it wasn't in a proper holster to begin with. Either way, she was completely negligent.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A student crazed enough to carry out the tragedies that have already happened isn't going to be slowed by the idea or possibility of being shot by a ccw. A nutso ideologue with a mission isn't going to be slowed either.

That's an empirical question as we will never know all that were deterred. We do know that Holmes in Aurora scoped out gun free zones and responses times. In California a shooter at a Jewish school avoided one because of the armed guards. On the other hand, I agreed that many if not most are not worried about armed responses.

As far as the issue - I don't see that the OP is known as a gun nut yet. Unlike me if carry was allowed at my job. There are outfits that sell specially designed pocket carry pants. Look at the 5.11s for instance. When the OP says some item of dress in non-negotiable, to be blunt, that is an immature attitude unless mandated by work. You are talking about the use of lethal force to save lives so dress is trivial.

As far as guns, not to be repetitious - how much training do you have in using handguns in dynamic situations? That is crucially important than your cowboy boots. A Tok or a hot 327? The choices for the latter are limited and while nice guns (I love my SW 327 SS comp'ed J), it's not the gun I'm chosing for a fight where you might face more than one assailant. Say Greensboro or Columbine. Have you considered how to carry reloads.

There are active shooter classes out there nowadays (check to see if the instructor is reputable). That's a starting point.

I do like the idea of a G43 in concealed carry pants.

Last, don't expect the school to protect you. Get some legal assistance plans, appropriate umbrella insurance, etc. If you shoot an innocent, you will be crucified and your life changed.

There's more to this than cowboy boots. Have you tried to run around on them in a fast moving critical incident. I'd look for some nice sturdy shoes with a good sole. See many cops in such if they aren't on Silver or Trigger?

 

[Homerboy]

How do you know that? Are you claiming that the gun just decided to fire on its own? No, either she was handling the gun or it wasn't in a proper holster to begin with. Either way, she was completely negligent.

I don't know that and neither do you. She said it slipped out of her waist band when she sat down and when she grabbed for it, it went off. I'm sure she grabbed the trigger as it fell. I highly doubt she was playing with the gun. All the evidence backs her up. Extremely close shot to the floor, and bullet and tile fragments in her legs.

I choose to give the benefit of the doubt to a 16 year veteran teacher described by her administrators as very dedicated.

I was in wood class in 9th grade when the kid in front of me cut off three of his fingers with the radial arm saw. Should the teacher have lost his job? 25 kids in a class. Was he negligent? What do you think would happen to that teacher today?

But her firing just proves my point. Unless I have an iron clad contract with insurance paid for by the school and an assurance that I will be indemnified for any accusations or altercations, I wouldn't carry a gun in school if they doubled my salary.

And in MY opinion, the OP should worry more about his career and family financial security than taking head shots with armor piercing ammo in a gun that he can conceal wearing cowboy boots and a dress shirt.

 

[Theohazard]

She said it slipped out of her waist band when she sat down and when she grabbed for it, it went off. I'm sure she grabbed the trigger as it fell.

OK, there you go. Assuming she's telling the truth, this shows she was completely negligent and deserves to be fired. First, she couldn't even manage to carry in a manner that kept her gun in the holster. Second, she made the classic mistake of grabbing for the gun when it dropped, and she ended up pulling the trigger as a result.

This woman was obviously inexperienced with concealed carry, and there's nothing wrong with that. But she showed a tremendous lack of judgment by deciding to carry a gun around children when she was so inexperienced that she couldn't even manage to keep her gun in the holster and she couldn't keep herself from pulling the trigger accidentally.

 

[Carmady]

I have to side with the guys who advise against taking a gun to school.

As the old saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

 

[Frankly]

some Utah teacher was fired because her gun went off in the bathroom

She was not fired. According to the news reports, she resigned.

 

[dyl]

Lots of debate going on above.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It's you're choice. You said you "could" carry. If it's legal you can, being prepared the best you can beforehand, and willing to deal with permanent changes in the aftermath. But that goes for anyone who carries a concealed firearm. The grey areas happen more - students brawling, pulling a knife, bringing a gun to school, bomb threats etc... If there is any training for that too (above what is par), that may be part of being prepared to take responsibility for your students.

I don't think lightning fast access is as important - but i'm no expert. You may not even decide to carry extra ammo, and just have a small pistol only. Since the country is coming from the angle of ZERO firearms in school, any in the hands of a careful responsible teacher is a step in my book.

Deciding your role/priority might determine what you choose. Would you be using the pistol to help your students evacuate first? Would you be following the school's standard procedure? (do they have one?) Are you going to leave your students to look for the active shooter, or is it to help them flee?

Maybe active shooter training is a good idea, if there is a course developed for teachers. Because while I'm sure your actual shooting skills could be up to the task, the harder part to practice (or find training) would be the crucial decision making skills.

 

[Homerboy]

She wasn't negligent. She responded in a completely human and automatic way and the gun fired. It was an accident.

And I mentioned before about Bill Jordan. Couldn't get any more experienced than he was. Yet he pulled a gun from a drawer and pointed it at a wall because he thought it was empty. It wasn't and he killed an agent on the other side of the wall. I don't know this woman's level of experience, but it is incorrect to label her actions as inexperienced.

And trust me, she resigned because the school gave her that option rather than be fired and never getting another job