Advice for a HS teacher who can now carry in class
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Nope. Public school in NY state. I live in PA about 30 minutes from work. And the fights I have seen are usually 2 kids who are trying to act tough and over in 1 or 2 punches. And the crowd of kids usually breaks it up.
My job and my family's well being outweighs some kid who probably deserved getting smacked. Sorry to say, but it's the truth. There's ALWAYS a reason for why the first punch is thrown.
But if a school fully backed me up, I'd wade into the fray. But they don't. They say they will but once a lawyergets involved at the BEST case sceanrio, the teachers gets a letter in his file and some sensitivity training. The kid will be the victim with an IEP, a father who didn't love him, a mommy who can't relate to him, and ME, the retired cop who should have some ninja skills will be the bad guy who should have been able to subdue the 230 pound super duper senior without breaking his arm.
All I know is that I made it through 4 years of high school and only one fight in 9th grade. Trouble finds those looking for it.
And all the law requires is to call security. Go ahead and sue the school if you want, but I'm not touching a kid unless he's about to literally beat another kid to death.
I personally can't wrap my head around that idea that one willingly chooses to go armed out in normal, every day life but somehow thinks it is a bad idea or unacceptable to go armed at work.
Furthermore, while it is true that you WILL be judged in the court of public opinion on what you choose to do if you find yourself armed AND in the middle of an active, cold-blooded and grisly slaughter of humans, maybe we can save you the trouble of worrying... If you think your career and personal reputation tops the list of priorities, you should also consider growing a spine.
Furthermore, while it is true that you WILL be judged in the court of public opinion on what you choose to do if you find yourself armed AND in the middle of an active, cold-blooded and grisly slaughter of humans, maybe we can save you the trouble of worrying... If you think your career and personal reputation tops the list of priorities, you should also consider growing a spine.
Andy Blozinski
New member
FITASC: What you said is a general statement on ANY form of concealed carry.
The issue isn't the public opinion on my actions in the middle of a school shooting. I am sure the public would back up any teacher who engaged a gunman, regardless of the outcome.
My issue is how the public would judge me in the much more likely scenario of a gun grab by a kid, or an allegation by a student or a parent. And also how the school would throw me under the bus. My immediate supervisor wouldn't, but go up the chain to the superintendent and the board, and that's a whole different story. And it's one that never ends in favor of the teacher.
Think about it: 7 hours a day, personally dealing with HUNDREDS of kids. This isn't about a guy with a permit slipping a gun into his waistband and going about his day. I can't imagine a WORSE place to be armed. Again, if I had an IRON CLAD agreement with the school protecting me from criminal or civil prosecution (unless there was IRON CLAD proof I did something reckless like point a gun at a kid), I'd probably carry. But they'll never give me that. They want to be able to pass the buck.
And truth be told, schools that allow it are just saving money by not hiring professional security. They're getting "two for the price of one". How many here actually went through a accredited training to get their CCW? One guy fired one shot from a 22 at 8 feet and got his. You think somebody with that level of training should be a protector of children? Judging by what I see at my local ranges, a large percentage of those carrying are incompetent.
Grow a spine? Please! Retired cop who worked in the worst ghettos in NYC. Little Johnnie doesn't scare me. Getting sued for trying to do something right and not being backed up by my employer and losing my house? That's a different story.
And Sevens, how many shootings have you been involved in? How do you even know you have a spine if you haven't been in that situation?
My issue is how the public would judge me in the much more likely scenario of a gun grab by a kid, or an allegation by a student or a parent. And also how the school would throw me under the bus. My immediate supervisor wouldn't, but go up the chain to the superintendent and the board, and that's a whole different story. And it's one that never ends in favor of the teacher.
Think about it: 7 hours a day, personally dealing with HUNDREDS of kids. This isn't about a guy with a permit slipping a gun into his waistband and going about his day. I can't imagine a WORSE place to be armed. Again, if I had an IRON CLAD agreement with the school protecting me from criminal or civil prosecution (unless there was IRON CLAD proof I did something reckless like point a gun at a kid), I'd probably carry. But they'll never give me that. They want to be able to pass the buck.
And truth be told, schools that allow it are just saving money by not hiring professional security. They're getting "two for the price of one". How many here actually went through a accredited training to get their CCW? One guy fired one shot from a 22 at 8 feet and got his. You think somebody with that level of training should be a protector of children? Judging by what I see at my local ranges, a large percentage of those carrying are incompetent.
Grow a spine? Please! Retired cop who worked in the worst ghettos in NYC. Little Johnnie doesn't scare me. Getting sued for trying to do something right and not being backed up by my employer and losing my house? That's a different story.
And Sevens, how many shootings have you been involved in? How do you even know you have a spine if you haven't been in that situation?
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No, no, no!
I am saying...
IF one is armed
AND there is an active shooter slaying people
AND you run flailing and crying in the other direction
I don't want to know you.
That's my point.
I'm not suggesting anyone is spineless for electing to not go armed, I'm saying that if you are armed and someone is slaughtering people, you need to interject.
I am saying...
IF one is armed
AND there is an active shooter slaying people
AND you run flailing and crying in the other direction
I don't want to know you.
That's my point.
I'm not suggesting anyone is spineless for electing to not go armed, I'm saying that if you are armed and someone is slaughtering people, you need to interject.
Most here would agree with you, but unless you have been in that situation, then you really can't judge. Like most cops, I have never been involved in an actual shooting. I have responded to hundreds (probably thousands) of shots fired calls, and heard many a shot go off nearby and ran towards them, but never pulled the trigger on a person.
But that's a cop whose JOB it is to do that, and one who is wearing a bullet resistant vest, a radio, and usually backed up by at least one partner if not many more.
I'm retired now, and if I am sitting in a movie theater with my wife and children, my FIRST responsibility is to get them out safely. And that doesn't mean shoo them towards the door (and maybe another shooter) while I go play John Wayne.
If the schools wanted to minimize school shootings, rather than arm hopelessly unprepared teachers and create an open season for lawsuits and other problems, they need to fortify the schools. Bullet resistant glass on ground floors. Steel doors that are going to stop bullets. ESPECIALLY on classroom doors. I am convinced that the teacher killed at Colombine (maybe Virginia Tech?) was killed because he had his body against the door trying to keep the killers out. Door required a key to lock and it's pretty hard to fumble for a key when shots are going off. he was shot through the door and the killers came in Cameras on all entrances. Alarms on all doors so they go off if they are opened.
But truth be told, even if they did all that, a kid could just pull a fire alarm and pick people off as they exited the building. There's no panacea for crazies. They'll always find a way. And most of these school shooters are pretty stupid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to pull an alarm and wait outside. or just shoot the place up at dismissal. Hard to miss when you have several hundred kids all congregating in one spot.
And what is the OP going to do then? What is his pistol going to do against the kid 200 yards away with an AR and a scope?
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Homerboy, you and a few others here are COMPLETELY missing the point of concealed carry in the classroom. It is about self defense. If an armed assailant comes into the classroom, an armed teacher has a chance. An unarmed teacher has no chance whatsoever. The idea of being a sitting duck does not appeal to some of us. Wrap your head around it.
Not really. Concealed carry is not illegal in MOST places; and the risk/liability in the general public is not as great as it is in a school.
Yes I have from page one - you? Ever been a teacher in a public school? I have; also in the at-risk school where they send the real bad ones after "count day" - kids with murder charges, grand theft, assault with a weapon - and those were the elementary age kids I taught.
Did we have an armed Sheriff deputy or two to handle the middle and high school kids? Yep, THEY were armed and sanctioned by the school to be armed.
Homerboy gets it......
Frankly,
I'm not missing the point. The OP is talking about head shots with armor piercing ammo. Others are talking about seeking out the shooter and engaging him. This thread isn't about self defense. It's about playing John McClane in a high school. That was a movie. A shooter entering your classroom is a very unlikely scenario. Your weapon being discovered is almost guaranteed. Allegations and lawsuits will follow. Administrators won't back you up.
Give me an iron clad assurance that I won't be thrown under the bus and I will carry. I won't hold my breath.
I'm not missing the point. The OP is talking about head shots with armor piercing ammo. Others are talking about seeking out the shooter and engaging him. This thread isn't about self defense. It's about playing John McClane in a high school. That was a movie. A shooter entering your classroom is a very unlikely scenario. Your weapon being discovered is almost guaranteed. Allegations and lawsuits will follow. Administrators won't back you up.
Give me an iron clad assurance that I won't be thrown under the bus and I will carry. I won't hold my breath.
Homerboy, the OP said he was a teacher moving to Utah (a shall issue state that allows conceal carry on public school property). He was asking for some advice on a CCW given his dress code. Somehow this thread evolved into a debate over whether a teacher should conceal carry in the classroom to begin with, dominated by folks who don't live in the state he is moving to and thus know nothing about the laws or the culture. I am taken back by the attitudes I have been reading here on the subject.
Edit: Yes, a shooter entering my classroom is an unlikely scenario. In large part because the would-be shooter is wondering whether he is going to face someone with a concealed carry permit who will shoot back. You certainly understand that states where common citizens are armed have less gun violence than places like Chicago where only the bad guys are armed. Secondly, if the shooter does enter my classroom, I am not a sitting duck if I am armed. That matters to some of us.
Edit: Yes, a shooter entering my classroom is an unlikely scenario. In large part because the would-be shooter is wondering whether he is going to face someone with a concealed carry permit who will shoot back. You certainly understand that states where common citizens are armed have less gun violence than places like Chicago where only the bad guys are armed. Secondly, if the shooter does enter my classroom, I am not a sitting duck if I am armed. That matters to some of us.
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
We have moved away from the OP as noted. If you don't have anything to say about the original question, please don't contribute anymore.
If you want a thread about whether you would carry or not in a school environment, please start another one focused on that.
If you want a thread about whether you would carry or not in a school environment, please start another one focused on that.
Why don't you get meteor insurance? 500 bucks a month. Very little chance of getting hit with one, but IF YOU DO, you'll be covered.
Same argument for a gun in school. Very high chance of getting jammed up. Very low chance of needing it.
And the thread moved away from his question about appropriate weapon to carry because his requirements were unrealistic. He's insistent on not changing his usual attire to facilitate concealing a weapon. He can't pocket carry a .380 Mustang. He's stating part of his daily routine will be to break up fist fights. But he wants armor piercing ammo to defeat the body armor that he is sure the shooter is going to be wearing, even though there hasn't been ONE mass shooting at a school (or anywhere else that I'm aware of), that had body armor used. There is NO weapon that will meet his criteria.
And I find it hard to believe that somebody who claims to have taught for 6 years doesn't get the "keep your hands off my kids" mantra.
Same argument for a gun in school. Very high chance of getting jammed up. Very low chance of needing it.
And the thread moved away from his question about appropriate weapon to carry because his requirements were unrealistic. He's insistent on not changing his usual attire to facilitate concealing a weapon. He can't pocket carry a .380 Mustang. He's stating part of his daily routine will be to break up fist fights. But he wants armor piercing ammo to defeat the body armor that he is sure the shooter is going to be wearing, even though there hasn't been ONE mass shooting at a school (or anywhere else that I'm aware of), that had body armor used. There is NO weapon that will meet his criteria.
And I find it hard to believe that somebody who claims to have taught for 6 years doesn't get the "keep your hands off my kids" mantra.
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Falcon,
I recently bought a Smart Carry holster to try with my Ruger LCP, specifically when wearing dress pants. I found that when carrying in front pocket ( with 2 different brands of good pocket holsters ) the pistol would flop around too much ( dress pants = flimsy material ). The Smart Carry is worn around your hips just below the belt line, between your shirt and pants. It's worked well the few times I've tried it and you cannot tell I'm carrying......
I've also used the Kangaroo carry holster. Kind of a band of material that goes around lower chest and has holster under your offside arm. This worked well with LCP, J frame snub, and I've even used it with a Glock 26. You'd probably want to wear a T shirt, then holster, then your shirt with this set up.
Just a couple of suggestions
Good luck finding the right combo
Mike
I recently bought a Smart Carry holster to try with my Ruger LCP, specifically when wearing dress pants. I found that when carrying in front pocket ( with 2 different brands of good pocket holsters ) the pistol would flop around too much ( dress pants = flimsy material ). The Smart Carry is worn around your hips just below the belt line, between your shirt and pants. It's worked well the few times I've tried it and you cannot tell I'm carrying......
I've also used the Kangaroo carry holster. Kind of a band of material that goes around lower chest and has holster under your offside arm. This worked well with LCP, J frame snub, and I've even used it with a Glock 26. You'd probably want to wear a T shirt, then holster, then your shirt with this set up.
Just a couple of suggestions
Good luck finding the right combo
Mike
Things sure seemed to go off topic lol.
I would agree there isn't any need for an armor penetrating round. Aside from the issue that you are in a school with children and you don't want bullets with insane penetration flying around, you need to keep in mind that even if some school shooter lunatic gets his hands on a bulletproof vest he still has to contend with the violent impact upon his chest from several rounds hitting center mass. That should stun him or knock him down long enough to move in for a head shot.
I guess if he has a ceramic plate or something you are screwed unless you shoot for the legs, the crotch, or the head but that is pretty unlikely based on previous shootings.
Although you seem to be legally able to carry in school you personally want something very concealable. I would suggest a single stack Glock 9mm or a Ruger Lc9s loaded with +P gold dots or something along those lines. A quality ankle holster will probably be your best bet for the situation with a backup mag strapped to your other ankle.
Choosing a small firearm will obviously put you at a disadvantage against an attacker armed with a rifle or a full size handgun as far as accuracy at any distance and magazine capacity but you will at least be able to defend yourself and your classroom against an attacker and it is certainly better than defending yourself with your desk chair.
Whatever firearm you go with, practice with it often and evaluate your surroundings at school. Figure out the best place for you to dig in, know where those bullets will fly when they leave your firearm, and have a well thought out plan for defending yourself and those kids.
I would agree there isn't any need for an armor penetrating round. Aside from the issue that you are in a school with children and you don't want bullets with insane penetration flying around, you need to keep in mind that even if some school shooter lunatic gets his hands on a bulletproof vest he still has to contend with the violent impact upon his chest from several rounds hitting center mass. That should stun him or knock him down long enough to move in for a head shot.
I guess if he has a ceramic plate or something you are screwed unless you shoot for the legs, the crotch, or the head but that is pretty unlikely based on previous shootings.
Although you seem to be legally able to carry in school you personally want something very concealable. I would suggest a single stack Glock 9mm or a Ruger Lc9s loaded with +P gold dots or something along those lines. A quality ankle holster will probably be your best bet for the situation with a backup mag strapped to your other ankle.
Choosing a small firearm will obviously put you at a disadvantage against an attacker armed with a rifle or a full size handgun as far as accuracy at any distance and magazine capacity but you will at least be able to defend yourself and your classroom against an attacker and it is certainly better than defending yourself with your desk chair.
Whatever firearm you go with, practice with it often and evaluate your surroundings at school. Figure out the best place for you to dig in, know where those bullets will fly when they leave your firearm, and have a well thought out plan for defending yourself and those kids.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
For God's sake - I say to stay on topic and folks continue the same old crap and add new racial crap. Penalties given and posts deleted.
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