Advice for a HS teacher who can now carry in class

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Quite a flurry of opinions centered around the Utah teacher whose gun went off in the toilet.

First of all, you need to consider the culture. Utah is probably the most gun-friendly state in the nation. Texas might be second. Utah certainly issues far more CC permits per capita than any other state--- by a huge margin. You have to sit through a half-day class, and, depending on the instructor, you may go to a range and prove that you can hit paper with a few rounds. You pay your fees, await your background check, and a few weeks later your CC card comes in the mail. Nobody gives you an IQ test before issuing the card, and nobody requires you to train regularly. Maybe the rules for CC permits in Utah should be more stringent. But they are what they are. And Utah's concealed carry permit is honored by something like 38 states, last time I checked, which must mean something. With such a large percentage of Utahns packing, this one incident with the grade school teacher is a statistically insignificant outlier and should not be the basis of a call to disarm teachers.
 
Homerboy said:
She wasn't negligent. She responded in a completely human and automatic way and the gun fired. It was an accident.
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She wasn't negligent? She was inexperienced enough that she decided to carry a gun even though she couldn't even keep it in her holster. And then when she dropped it she grabbed for it and pulled the trigger. Sure, it was an accident; an accident caused by complete negligence.

Anyone with experience knows how to carry a gun in a manner that keeps it from falling out of the holster, and anyone with experience knows that dropping a gun is like dropping a knife; just let it fall.

I have no experience driving a school bus, so I wouldn't just jump in one and drive a bunch of kids to school. I also have a minimum level of practice with CPR, so I wouldn't just decide to be a lifeguard at a children's pool. This woman was dangerously inexperienced with concealed carry, and yet she decided to carry a gun at her school. That's a classic example of negligence right there.
 
Some of the most skilled and professional shooters in the world have had ND's. I am as super careful around a weapon as is possible. But I know I'm not above making a mistake.

And neither are you. Arrogance has brought many a person back down to earth.
 
Frankly said:
With such a large percentage of Utahns packing, this one incident with the grade school teacher is a statistically insignificant outlier and should not be the basis of a call to disarm teachers.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that incident should be used as a basis to disarm teachers. I simply think that people should be held responsible for their actions, especially when those actions put children at risk. I have no problem with teachers carrying concealed, but when a teacher is so negligent that she allows her gun to fall out of her holster and then pulls the trigger by accident, that teacher should be severely punished.
 
I have rethought my position on this - no, I wouldn't carry my Boberg. In fact, I would not carry a gun in a school as a teacher for the following reasons:

1. School teachers and administrators tend to be "gun-unfriendly" and some of them would be "gunning' for my resignation if they knew I carried.

2. Any sloppiness with handling a gun will not be forgiven and will likely get you fired. I admit, I have made minor mistakes in handling and securing a firearm. Is there anyone here who can say they have never made a mistake handling or securing their firearm? Ever dropped a gun? Inadvertently caught yourself "touching" that trigger when handling a gun? Left your gun unlocked somewhere when not on your person? Printed while carrying, or exposing your gun while carrying?

3. I'm not a cop and do not have 1/100th the training an ordinary cop has. I have always maintained that my gun is for my PERSONAL PROTECTION. As noble as it might be for me to try to protect others who are being threatened with a knife, gun or whatever, I don't feel that I'm qualified to do so without a good likelihood of making critical mistakes.

4. What if I fail to act? What if someone gets stabbed in a hallway, 20 feet in front of me and I DON'T pull my gun and try to stop it? How is that going to be reported. How am I going to be perceived? Are people going to say "Skans, what a great man he is for using such self control in a crowded hallway not to try and shoot a murderer." No, it will be reported: "Teacher licensed to carry firearm at school for children's safety fails to take action when boy within arms-length of teacher stabs and murders innocent girl".

The bottom line - I stay away from places like schools that are stuffed full of radical anti-gun types. I choose not to work in them; choose not to carry a gun if I ever have to go to one - heck, I just stay away! Until the day comes that the majority of people running schools, colleges and universities are gun-friendly and the laws provide me with sovereign immunity for injuring/killing someone when addressing an active threat, I'm not putting my life, reputation, career, right to own firearms, or life's savings on the line for anyone in a school.
 
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Homerboy said:
Some of the most skilled and professional shooters in the world have had ND's. I am as super careful around a weapon as is possible. But I know I'm not above making a mistake.

And neither are you. Arrogance has brought many a person back down to earth.
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I agree with this 100%. I carry a gun almost everywhere I go, and I'm aware of the potential consequences if I have an ND. If I have an ND at home, my wife will re-think having guns in the house. If I have an ND at work, I'll be fired. And if I have an ND in public, I fully expect to face charges.

And back when I was in the Marine Corps, we were aware of the concequences if we were to have a negligent discharge. We had one guy have a negligent discharge during a security mission in Albania, and our CO NJPed him on the spot. And that was in a potential combat zone. Yet you think a teacher shouldn't be punished for having an ND in a school full of children?

But the situation with the Utah teacher isn't just about an ND, it's about her severe lack of judgment in deciding to carry concealed when she lacked the experience or skills to do so safely.
 
when a teacher is so negligent that she allows her gun to fall out of her holster and then pulls the trigger by accident, that teacher should be severely punished.
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I can't argue with that. Should it mean the end of her career? How about just taking away her conceal carry permit?

As an interesting aside, this teacher's negligent discharge is the only school shooting Utah has ever had. Fortunately it ended with no fatalities.
 
And trust me, she resigned because the school gave her that option rather than be fired and never getting another job
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According to the Granite School District spokesman, she was going to be disciplined for violating District policy, but not fired. Granite School District policy is that the concealed gun must remain on the person at all times while on school grounds. She violated it by taking it off her person to go potty.
 
How many school shootings occur where the shooter is wearing body armor?
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Problem is this faulty logic. PAST shootings are largely irrelevant and using that logic and failing to apply the learning curve is part of the problem with our vulnerabilities.

There has been a huge spike in "gun free" zone shootings, particularly schools. The OPs school is not "gun free" apparently. However it's still a soft target as a school.

The bad guys and terrorists are adept at learning and applying new principles. It's very foreseeable that future attacks are dynamic, have multiple armed assailants, and wear body armor. While unlikely, it's not foreseeable.

Now, for me personally, I would chose my handgun based on factors with higher priority than the ability to penetrate body armor (which would be low on the list - as evidenced that I don't carry my Tokarev).
 
I would definitely carry in school. Your requirements for concealment may be more stringent but the need to be armed is even more crucial than an everyday schmuck. Schools are nearly as much a target for a bad guy with a knife or gun as a convenience store. and the potential loss of life is greater. Get a Kel-Tec P-32 and a wallet type holster. Keep it in your back pocket and keep your back pocket buttoned and don't ever touch or fuss with it unless you need it.

This is the kind of holster I'm talking about. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hunter-Pocket-Wallet-Holsters/1222317.uts?productVariantId=4042312&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=37-64664239-2&WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=04057061&rid=20

No one will ever know if you don't need it.
 
She said it slipped out of her waist band when she sat down and when she grabbed for it, it went off.
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It's possible that she was never taught or told but again, part of the responsibility is doing your homework before choosing to carry. Just in case anyone here doesn't know:

If your gun is falling, let it fall!

Trying to catch a falling gun is an important source of negligent discharges. Just let it go. The chances of a modern handgun discharging upon hitting the floor are pretty slim. Your gun may be damaged but no matter how premium or custom it is, life and limb are worth infinitely more.
 
DA/SA Fan said:
Schools are nearly as much a target for a bad guy with a knife or gun as a convenience store.
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It's actually not even close, the media just likes to sensationalize school shootings for ratings and to fit into their anti gun agenda. You don't hear about every convenience store robbery on the news, which happen daily, even if it's in your own state let alone other states. Though when there is a school shooting, regardless of the state, you hear about it for the next year.
 
While I taught in the higher ed environment, I would carry if able.

I would not act as a pseudo-leo but defend where I was located. I am not physically intervening if Joe and Johnny are beating each other up - esp. with the size of high school kids. I would carry for some horrendous critical incident.

Yes, the risk is less than other places.

As far as the COP - please give us a break. That is a gun but not a good one. One loses credibility for suggesting that - being blunt.

Maybe some folks should have the right to carry but should consider whether they should.

When I see exotic gun choices, fashion based clothes concerns not based on job requirements or lack of training for such - I suggest that you think about carry behavior.
 
I would only carry deep concealment in a school environment for retention reasons as much as anything else.

Dark undershirt. Belly band OR Shoulder holster. Button down shirt over gun. Maybe sweater or jacket over that when possible. There are magnetic buttons available to allow easy access under the shirt.

If you are going to ankle carry it better be high on your ankle.

If you are getting in the middle of student altercations there is nowhere you can carry that is not likely to be discovered.
 
You're never gonna take off a sport coat? No school never worked in had AC. Are you gonna keep it buttoned? A coat is not gonna keep the weapon's presence hidden from kids.

If you must be armed, a pocket gun with a Velcro tab on top to keep it closed is your best bet.

But they're still gonna know
 
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