9MM Hollowpoints: Not impressive

My mistake the 9mm ammo in the Gelatin comparison pic is actually in the +p velocity range (after thinking about it ..though not near some of the hottest..e.g. DT 9mm 124gr +p @ 1310fps / 473ft-lbs, etc..) ..but anyway here's the Ranger T true standard velocity 147gr added.
..just weren't enough slots in Winchester's comparison tool originally :)
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Mike Irwin said:
Oberfeld said:
"I heard and read stories from Iraq veterans that they had to empty a full magazine from their Beretta to stop an insurgent. I bet the 45ACP would have done a better job."
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And I have heard and read stores that .45s have caused nuclear mushroom clouds upon hitting insurgents, and that all of the insurgents around Mr. Nuked, upon seeing that, instantly convert to Christianity.
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So....the reports that the USAF are giving up the MOAB and instead shooting Thompsons at the drop zones are just rumor?.... :D

The important part of shooting is accurately putting holes in the important stuff....and either 9mm or .45ACP will do that just fine.....

...though I prefer the 9mm....smaller & lighter guns than the .45ACP...and cheaper ammo, too.... :cool:
 
Also keep in mind that barrel length is a very strong deciding factor in how any, but especially 9mm perform in media like, oh people as well as wall board and gel. The full size 4" barrel is the min used for evals like the ones above, most often they use 5" service guns. When looking at any like the above photo's of fired slugs it is very important to know what it was fired from!
Drop down to sub compacts like the PM9 and you get LOTS more penetration and lots less expansion...zing like through and through, the only way to know for sure would be for everybody to test the chosen load in the gun they are going to carry per the FBI protocols...Also in the short barrel guns the fast +P's show bullet drop in as little as 15 yards that vary between 1 to 5 inches depending. The "heavy" (and slow) 147 grain slugs drop a lot less. Kind of like the 158 gr vs. 125 gr. out of a 2" snub. All factors to consider, but hitting the target is #1 IMHO.
 
I'd stick with light and fast in most subcompact length barrels(115-124gr) and leave others to thinking they need the 147's to get any pen out of a SB 9mm.
I've seen enough short bbl subcompact tests where 115's got well over 14"

A 4" bbl usually does pretty good performance wise(e.g. G19).
 
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I'm of the general opinion that all handgun cartridges are ballistically deficient, but we ignore those shortcomings because the platform is far more portable than the ones typically used for more - uhm - potent cartridges. So I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread.

But allow me to nitpick for a moment.

Also in the short barrel guns the fast +P's show bullet drop in as little as 15 yards that vary between 1 to 5 inches depending. The "heavy" (and slow) 147 grain slugs drop a lot less.
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This doesn't make sense. Bullets are ballistic projectiles. Bullet drop should be dependent only upon time in flight - the amount of time they are affected by the force of gravity. If you lined up ten different guns with ten different loads on a range and fired them at the same time and angle over a long, flat surface, every one of those bullets should drop the same amount from a linear path at the same rate.

If those ten bullets are fired exactly parallel to the ground, then all of the bullets should hit the ground at the same time. They'll just be different distances from their starting point.

So if you fire a fast load from your handgun, it should show a flatter trajectory than a slower load, regardless of its mass. I can maybe see it being an issue if you had a high-mounted scope on the handgun, or something, so that the barrel is pionted at an upward angle relative to the line of sight of the scope. Then inertia might come into play, but even then it's only going to have a noticable effect once one projectile hits the top of its trajectory arc, and 15 yards seems a little close for that. Am I missing something?

Or, you know, someone can just tell me to shut my yap and stay on topic. :)
 
If you are looking for an impressive wound channel like me you'd use a 357 magnum.
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Suddenly, there seems to be an absence of all the people who have contended, vociferously, for decades, that only the permanent wound channel created by the bullet itself means anything. Now, some of the temporary (stretch) cavities seem to impress a lot of folks.

Just an observation.:cool:
 
Haz, has less to do with bullet after it leaves the barrel. Bullet drop is determined by time in barrel and recoil, fire some light vs heavy slugs next time you are at the range and you will see it first hand. As I understand it the slower slugs leave the barrel at a higher point in the recoil arc then a faster slug and as the lighter slug has less recoil it skips out the barrel at a lower point. See it most in the 2" .,38's but in the 9's as well, heck even the .45's at any distance...Its real though, my Colt Agent hates anything less than 158 grains.
 
This is silly. To pass on a caliber because of the way it looks? why not carry a desert eagle or S&W 500, everything else just looks like a sissy gun.

:rolleyes:
 
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OK, now if you want to see how these rounds really perform, you need some independent, disinterested, testing. An ammo company wants to sell its 9mm as much as it wants to sell its .45, so I don't trust "data" offered by the company itself.
 
Also keep in mind that barrel length is a very strong deciding factor in how any, but especially 9mm perform in media like, oh people as well as wall board and gel. The full size 4" barrel is the min used for evals like the ones above, most often they use 5" service guns. When looking at any like the above photo's of fired slugs it is very important to know what it was fired from!
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Very true, but the 4" is the standard 9mm barrel length in every catalogue I've ever seen. The standard .45 barrel is 5" (a la the 1911). If you look, most of your popular 9mm service pistols have 4-4.5" barrels; Glock 17, 19, Walther P-99, H&K USP, Browning HP, CZ-75, etc.

Also, the 9mm loses less speed going from a 4.5" barrel to a 3.5" barrel than most people might think. My G-17 runs about 1200-fps with generic WWB 115gr FMJ (4.5" bbl); my Kel-Tec PF-9 (3.1" bbl) runs about 1100-fps. Either one can push a 115-124gr JHP hard enough to make it expand reliably.

Still, my money is always on bullet placement and multiple hits. It's a handgun, not a nuclear weapon; 1-hit probably isn't going to solve the problem, be it a hit from a .45, a 9mm, a .380 or a .40.

I might change my mind if we start talking MAGNUM revolver rounds. My .44 at least feels like a nuke when it goes off... ;)
 
Haz, has less to do with bullet after it leaves the barrel. Bullet drop is determined by time in barrel and recoil, fire some light vs heavy slugs next time you are at the range and you will see it first hand. As I understand it the slower slugs leave the barrel at a higher point in the recoil arc then a faster slug and as the lighter slug has less recoil it skips out the barrel at a lower point. See it most in the 2" .,38's but in the 9's as well, heck even the .45's at any distance...Its real though, my Colt Agent hates anything less than 158 grains.
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Ok! That makes sense. A difference in angle as they exit the barrel would definitely explain the behavior. Thanks!
 
.45 ACP and 9 MM Luger are both small and unimpressive

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Now if I could only figure out how to carry a .50 BMG IWB. :)
 
so....if you got some BG breaking into your house and is aimning his POS mishandled handgun at you and you pop 3 rounds in his chest from a .380/9mm/.40S&W/.45/.50AE arent they gonna die? id think so....
 
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