.45 ACP 1911 still the King

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Rob96-

Thank you for your service to this country.

Anybody who tries to diminish it needs to stop, take a breath and get grateful. The wouldn't be any streets for LEO's to protect if it weren't for you guys.
 
To SigFan:
I am sure we are all very tired of hearing about the high priest of the Glock world , Chuck Taylor. Those of us who have been reading the gunzines for years are well aware of the fact that some gunwriters are merely prostitutes of the gun industry. I am not accusing chuck taylor of anything but some gun writers of the past have been caught receiving large amounts of cash, free trips abroad, free guns and ammunition, free hunting trips and even free services of ladies of the evening.
Chuck Taylor's latest article about the 170,000 round test of his original Glock 17 including an underwater test fire without any special modifications made him the laughing stock of the gunsmithing world. Chuck may be able to seduce the 20 something crowd into worshiping at his alter of Glock but for those of us who have a lifetime of servicing firearms,we are not so easily seduced or lead into a world of fantasy and myth. W.R.
 
Wildromanian,

I'm sure I've probably heard something about who you're talking about. I don't read the gun mags a lot, but I would if I had the time and $$ to spend on them!

Well, I'll tell ya, I'm a 20-something (24 to be exact), and all them new space age nuclear hyper tensile polymer plastic hoo-ha guns just don't appeal to me. I'm a 1911 fan all the way.

I have pretty classic tastes all the way around... the 1911 and PPK/S are some of my favorite designs. I like blackpowder rifle, but prefer Pennsylvania Rifles with flintlocks. I like archery too, but gravitate toward straight limb longbows.

M@
 
Tamara
Moderator

Registered: 03-11-2000
Location: On a mountaintop in Tennessee
Posts: 2125
I'm sorry, but...
...these people who chime in about every 1911 they've ever touched feeding everything right out of the box, even badly assembled "parts guns", while every Glock/SIG/Beretta/HK they've seen has been a breakage-prone jammomatic are either exaggerating for the sake of brand loyalty or living in some antimatter parallel "Bizzaro Universe" that I've never visited

Tamar: I and many of my associates down through the years have had far less problems with 1911 parts guns than with brand new out of the box new wave pistols.
And Seriously , if you disbelieve what I have posted about the Sig .45 I suggest you try the Hensley and Gibbs wadcutter style bullet or the any sharp shouldered lead wadcutter bullet that closely copies the H&G. Lyman along with may other bullet mold makers all make a close copy of this famous target bullet. I am not trying to flame you at all but I am only reporting on my experiences with some of these vastly inferior weapons. Anyone who doubts me can duplicate much of what I say for themselves.
Here is another one. Try taking a Sig 220 or Sig .226 apart. I mean completely down to the bare frame. Do not attempt this at home unless you have went through a Sig armorers course and have a bag full of spare cheap sheet metal roll pins along with a lot of spare little springs (may of which you will probably lose when you strip the frame down.) Then after this nightmare strip down a 1911. After this experience you will immediately see the great engineering difference and superiority of the John Browning 1911. You will then understand for yourself the superiority of the 1911 in ease of maintenance and repair and also the reliablity of the 1911 over all other types of automatic pistols.
Modern pistols came about because of a need to build pistols faster and cheaper for the police and military. They did not come about because of a desire to surpass the engineering or reliabilty of the 1911. Many also came about because of a desire to issue pistols to police that would be politcally correct.
This response is not a flame on anyone or on you Tamara. As we go through life we gain a lot of experience with various makes and models of firarms we buy and use. I believe that many of the well intensioned people who love the other brands of pistols just have not yet had the time or opportunity to gain enough experience with the 1911 to really appreciate or even see the vast difference in the engineering that went into this pistol as compared to the vastly inferior modern pistols that have been invented after it. All of my gunsmithing associates to a man consider the 1911 so far advanced over the other brands that they will not even discuss the subject of which is better. From years of experience all of them have seen the difference between the 1911 and the other so called modern weapons. In my experience with them all I have found very few advantages with them except perhaps in terms of weight or size, certainly never in reliabilty. I have fired thousands of loads through most of the modern pistols and through the 1911. I have carried all of the modern pisols. I have even on occastion beause of my work had to carry pistols without proper holsters and even sleep with them. I have found that nothing but nothing compares to the 1911 especially in terms of safety and first round hit probablilty. These are two areas where most of the modern pistols fail miserably. The history of the 1911 and its reliabilty are legendary. ----------------------When Sig Fan claims that the 1911's are unreliable I suggest to anyone who would like to see for himself if this statement is accurate then they should come to Camp Perry and see thousands of them working quite well indeed.-------------------- These guns are closely fitted guns that should be very jam prone because of the tight tolerances and the light target ammo that is fired in them. But guess what, most all of them work very well indeed. The competitiors who use them would have switched long ago to a different brand if they were not super accurate and highly reliable. Ever wonder why there are so few modern new wave guns on the firing line at Camp Perry. Surely there must be a reason for this. People who compete use the best weapons available to them and that is why they practically all use the 1911. History and reality are on their side. Anyone who disbelieves this can come to Camp Perry or any other range that has such competitors and gain a lot of knowledge from talking to these people, many who have been competitors for over half a century. I think all that experiece counts for something. It is certainly more valid that reading of Chuch Taylor and his fantasy adventures in the wonderful world of Glock. W.R.
 
Ho Hum...

I guess the debate on what pistol is best will never die... I always go by the addage.... "Use what works for you and don't knock someone else's choice...."

Rob96.. When were you in the PI??? We may have crossed paths.. I was there 85-88

Rick
 
Rob96

I too am glad you served our counrty. I was pointing out that being a MP is far different than being a civilian leo. Most MP's I know that are now cops freely admit this and state being an MP was for the most part serurity work except for the special groups like CID. So when you said been there done that it was not accurate. That would be like me saying I was in the special forces because I have trained with a few of their members once. As for being sick of my opinion oh well thats life. We are all free to express our opinion on this board and if we disagree and I think 1911's are antiquated and you don't thats life we can argue till were both blue in the face.

To the other poster that said sigs were difficult to strip to the bone thats is not true. I have done it several times and I am not a sig armorer. Also Camp perry is a range not the field. Guns normally work better on the range when no ones life is in danger and they are clean and weather is good. Try that with a camp perry 1911 at -40 below with frozen blood and snow on your gun. Also who cares if that sig would not feed a target bullet. It will feed jhp's and thats what we use for real work. I could care less if my gun will feed empty cases or special target lead bullets because it simply does not matter. Empty cases are not effective loads.
PAT
 
355sigfan...


Does it take much effort on your part to act like that......or does it just come naturally?

It is rather silly to state that the 1911 is an obslete gun.

It is also silly to argue about "this" gun being better than "that" gun. As long as an individual likes his/her gun.....thats all that matters.
 
DoubleBogey

I caution you sir not to take this discussion from a friendly disagreement to one of petty name calling. Lets keep this professional. Name calling is very silly.
PAT
 
I wouldn't say that the 1911 is obsolete. A glock or sig or beretta work in about the same way. The operating principles of firearms just haven't changed that much in the past 90 years. The only major recent development has been caseless ammunition, and I don't think that glock makes a caseless pistol.
 
WildRomanian:

Thank you for your post! :) Having been in the gun biz for about a decade myself, my experience has been somewhat different. Yes, a tuned 1911 racegun will feed target wadcutters. Several semiauto target pistols of German and Italian extraction will feed rimmed .32 cal full wadcutters. Does this make them the ultimate in pistols? My ParaOrdnance P12.45 is the only NIB 1911-pattern pistol I've personally owned that was 100% reliable with all JHP ammo available right from the box with factory mags. I've seen many others that would "feed it all", but it's always been a hit or miss thing in my experience, with some round (either hot +P ammo, or lightweight bullet loads, or feed-unfriendly JHP ogives such as the CCI "Flying Ashtray" or MagTech's 185gr +P JHP) needing mag tweaks or replacement or recoil spring replacement or maybe a "ramp and throat" to solve the issue.

This used to be the norm with autopistols; having a certain round or two that the gun "just didn't like", but I've had too many modern autopistols (Glocks, P-series SIGs, full-size Berettas, HK P7's and USP's) that feed everything straight from the box, no tweaking required, at least as far as jacketed factory ammo goes, to accept the old "well, it's just fussy" from a factory gun any more.

If feeding lead wadcutter ammo loaded over mild target loads is your priority, yes the 1911 is the gun for you (after suitable mods). If feeding aggressive JHP's right out of the box in a CCW handgun that has a good chance of being ready to go with no 'smithing needed is your need, you and I know there are better choices than the 1911.

However, I sure don't think the 1911 is "obsolete"; if I did, why would I have had a Springfield on my hip all day? ;)
 
"agressive hollow points right out of the box... I think there are better choices than the 1911."

I'm not so sure that that is the case anymore, Tamara.

Manufacturers of 1911-style pistols have, more and more, been changing the ramp angle and throating of their 1911 designs specifically so they WILL feed the defensive HPs without too many problems, just like their double-action counterparts.

I think you're being overly general.

But, to give this a whirl, I'm going to a pin shoot this weekend. I'm taking my Springfield Mil Spec, and I'll see if I can get a box or two of the HPs you're talking about to see at least where my 1911 stands on this issue.

And, as soon as I can get my friend Mr. James out to the range without his wife figuring out he's purchased a new gun, a Springfield Loaded .45, we'll see how it deals with defensive HPs.
 
I wouldn't say that the 1911 is obsolete. A glock or sig or beretta work in about the same way. The operating principles of firearms just haven't changed that much in the past 90 years.

You could say the same thing about cars like the model t and a ford Taurus they both have a internal combustion engine, a transmission 4 tires and a steering wheel. But most of us would say the model t is obsolete.
PAT
 
.45's ..King of the Hill .. et al

Ladies and Gentleman,

I have read with interest all of the comments posted to this thread and have decided to toss my two cents worth in. I apologize if the post is awkwardly formatted but my second post will be better.
All of the opinions are (aside from the snide and sarcastic) well received and given the due consideration as each merits. In so far as the .45 being king of the hill, that is a debate which will go on forever .. similar to the Chevy vs. Ford vs. Plymouth vs *name your favorite car here* discussion. Speaking to the discussion (sometimes heated . sometimes not) concerning which is better as a pistol/round . I would submit the following thought:
.. everyone has a .. "is the best/ greatest/ close to perfect/ 'save the world' , apple pie and mom" pistol :D .. I have one .. as does everyone else on this thread ...
In my humble opinion, seeking to change the mind of someone to your way of thinking when he/she is as set in their own way .. is a task that at best .. is darn close to impossible.
I would offer the sugestion that posting a reply stating the outstanding qualities of your choice of weapon is a better tactic than to attempt to electronically 'shout down' those who do not subscribe to your belief.

Cegarman

Addendum: I do not own a .45 of any make ..although I did carry one while helping Uncle Sam save and preseve the many gasthaus's in the former FRG. I have an Beretta Cougar 8040 at present ... which will stop T-80's and crazed politicians :D
 
I like it...

...It's still GREAT to have so many strong folks around. No matter what you bring, as long as you COME, and bring SOMETHIN' for OUR SIDE, I'm proud of all of ya'...
cheers.gif
 
Bandit,

I was in the P.I. form Dec. 88 until Dec. 90. Missed the great volcano eruption by 2 months I think. All I know is the my fav bar , Murphy's Rock Bar, was leveled by the weight of the ash on the roof. Had some great times there, but we worked are arses off though.


355Sigfan,

Before you start making comments about people ie; calling them gate guards and such, you should maybe contact them one day and ask them about the experiences they had. While guys I was stationed with downgraded every Filipino I use to take the time and talk the old timers that were vets from WWII and talk to them for hours about what it was like fighting the Japanese and such. You are a cop in Alaska, I never made any comments to the fact of what in Alaska could be so harmful, compared to where I live. Slow down and read what you write.
 
Just as a little side note. Thru reading over at Evan Marshalls board, it seems he has gone back to the antiquated 1911 chambered in 45acp using 230gr HydraShoks. I wonder what happened, he was really advocating the 357Sig there for a while. Still won't change my mind as to what I carry, I'll always use what works best for me.
 
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To 357 Sig:
To the other poster that said sigs were difficult to strip to the bone thats is not true

The reality of the situation is that it is 110 per cent true. I really do not believe that you have ever stripped down either a 1911 or a sig 220 style pistol. No one who has could fail to see the tremendous difference between the two.

I will give you just one glaring example. A few weeks ago I had to take the mag release button out of a Sig 220 .45 acp. The damn thing is not encapsulated like in a 1911. When you remove this abortion there are two tiny springs that immedietely rocket off into the stratosphere. When you resassemple this nightmare you literaly have to locate a large plastic bag to put over the gun to capture the springs if all does not go as planed and one or both of them escape your grasp as you are reinstalling them.

Contrast this to the 1911. You simply insert the encapsulated assembly and turn a screw and you are done. It takes less time to do than to talk about it. I could go on but everyone by now has gotten the picture I am sure. The Sig series of pistols sure was not part of the evolution of better automatic pistols. In fact it was a great leap backward in terms of engineering.

The Sig Line of pistols came about as a means to produce a hangun as cheaply and as quickly as possible and this statement did not originally come from me, it came right from Sig Neuhausen, the oringal inventors of this pistol.W.R.
 
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Thank you for your post! Having been in the gun biz for about a decade myself, my experience has been somewhat different. Yes, a tuned 1911 racegun will feed target wadcutters.

To Tamara:
Currently none of the .45 1911's I have are tuned race guns. All will feed the H & G style wadcutter bullets. Also I have not experienced the problems that you speak of in regards to 1911's feeding hollow point bullets. As far as the exotically shaped bullets that you speak of like the flying ashtray. I have seen a lot of the recently manufactured 1911's coming through with very well made and throated feed ramps and the people at our range use some very exotic ammo in them with no complaints about 1911's not feeding modern style exotic bullets.

For the record the first .45 Glock I owned would not even feed full metal jacketed bullets even though it had very well throated barrel. The problem with that gun was with the magazine. At the time Glock had no reliable magazines for this gun and admitted this fact to me when I attempted to have them repair the weapon.

The point I have been trying to make for those of you that do not own or those of you that have little experience with the 1911 is that there is no handgun on earth that is superior to it. The real facts are that all are a good deal inferior to it in many, many areas. Looking at the overall picture of all the handguns being made today none can even be put in the 1911's class. It simply has no close rivals. The other brands of modern handguns all have just too many shortcommings and disadvantages when compared to the classic John Browning Colt 1911. W.R.
 
. Also Camp perry is a range not the field. Guns normally work better on the range when no ones life is in danger and they are clean and weather is good. Try that with a camp perry 1911 at -40 below with frozen blood and snow on your gun. Also who cares if that sig would not

To Sig. Again you prove that you know very little about the history of the 1911. The 1911 was not only tested in extreme cold in the orignal U.S.Army test trials but in the 1970's it was used as a standard of measure against all the new guns that were vying for the new contract service pistol. Once again the 1911 was tested in cold, water, mud etc. Any pistol that could not do as well as it did was immedietly rejected.

If you really did have problems with cold weather functioning of a 1911 it certainly was not due to the pistols long proven and tested design. Many things may have caused the pistol to malfucntion. Worn or damaged magazines, bad ammo,improper lube, dirty weapon,,worn parts or a poorly made clone of the 1911.

None of us familiar with the 1911 can buy your story that the 1911 does not work in cold weather, history has already proven that your statement is not even worth arguing about. W.R.
 
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