.45 ACP 1911 still the King

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"As an aside if you will a DA auto is in no way more difficult to make a hit with the first shot. " -- shiroikuma

Agreed. The challenge people have with double action is that they either try to "stage" the trigger or they try to anticipate the break (of which there is none in the SA sense of the term). Once I broke myself of those habits, I saw absolutely no accuracy difference between DA or SA. Of course, you must have a good DA trigger.
 
Every time I see someone post that you have to spend $1500.00 on a 1911 to get one that works I wonder why mine work. I've got less than that tied up in two, and I don't have any function problems.

Just lucky I guess.:rolleyes:

Me, David, and thousands of other guys.
 
does NOT have an overpenetration problem like the smaller faster rounds

This is a false statement. A 230 grain .45 acp moving 850 like say a Hydra shock penitrates more at 14 inches of gelatin than does my Winchester ranger .357 sig load with a 125 grain bullet at 1430. My load penitrates 11.5 inches and expands to .70 caliber. Speed makes jhp bullets penitrate less because the bullets expand more. Your statement is a common misconception however and your not the first to be mistaken in this area. Taken to the extreem a .223 softpoint poses less of an overpenitration risk than do most all jhp pistol bullets here is a article. The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.

The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2








Here is another article
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].

Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.

A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.

Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.

Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.

Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.

Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.

Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.

Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.







PAT
 
Sorry ran out of memory on that last post. Next point I was going to make is that I believe the difference in my personal experence with the 1911 reliability is partly due to where I live. Alaska is hard on guns. Many guns don't want to work when its 60 below zero. Heck I don't want to work at that temp. But it seems that glocks and HK still work at that temp. Sigs and Berettas seem to work to about 20 or 30 below if they are allowed to cold soak. I have seen 1911's start to have problems at around the 10 below mark unless they are realy loose. ALso in the area I am currently in there is alot of fine sand every where. I have to clean my mags daily to keep all my guns going. It has been my expierence that 1911's jam up more on the range than other guns in these conditions. This does not mean all 1911's. I have a friend who's para p14 has never failed rain or shine. I also believe 1911's are easy to shoot well. I will say that I can shoot my glock as good as my 1911's however. Double action auto's like sigs, HK's and Berettas do slow my first shot and my qual scores with these autos is slightly lower. In the end if the 1911 is what you like then by all means carry one just make sure its reliable in all the conditions your likely to find your self in.
PAT
 
Most mobern guns far exceed the reliability of the 1911. My Sig 220 and my Glock 21 were both in a dead heat with my kimber for the accuracy game. I have beat many

I still own a sig p220 and I used to own a Glock .45. Guess what, neither gun worked and they were both brand new. Time nor space do not enalbe me to give you a run down on all the problems I have had with these two guns but the Sig 220 will not even feed the famous Hensely and Gibbs wad cutter bullet made so famous down through the years at camp perry. The sig's short feed ram does not allow this bullet to be used because empty cases that are being ejected plow a trough through the loaded round in the magazine that is waiting to be loaded next into the chamber. So much for the superiority of modern designs. The Sigs take down lever has a mind of its own and often jams up and refuses to rotate down to allow disassmebly of the pistol. I could go on but you get the picture. I have owned perhaps 20 1911's pistols and have had no problems with any of them. A few of them were even crudely put together parts guns with a dozen different manufactures parts all thrown in together to assemble the gun. All of the 1911's worked with no problems.
Your statement that the sig and glock are more reliable is not born out by my experience and the experience of many people that have shot on our range. When a person needs my help on the range because of a jammed up or inoperative pistol i find it is seldom a 1911. I will not even go into how many times I have had to help people shooting the inferior copy cat designs or the plastic and aluminum frame new wave guns. They do not even come close when it comes to reliabilty. W.R.
 
Of Course it's KING

Hello, this is my inaugural post! I'm a newbie here, but I'm gonna jump right in!

I recently got a 1911 (after having one a few years ago that was total crap {Llama}... but I didn't let it ruin my opinion of the 1911). I have always liked the 1911 because of the slender profile, the classic yet beautiful style and look of it, and the power inherent in the available chamberings.

I have owned several handguns, and none have fit my hand so well as the 1911. My hands are big enough to handle the Beretta 92, and shoot it well. In fact, I sold my 92 to get my 1911! I have nothing against the Beretta, and know someday, I'll get another one.

The 1911 is an excellent platform. It's easy to tinker with and it's very customizeable, kinda like a pickup truck. There are SO many things you can do with one! :D I like plain jane stainless with wood grips, but I've seen some BEAUTIFUL ones, and some pimped out ugly ones, too!

As for the .45 round... I like it because of the high fecalation factor. (a criminal looking down the bore is gonna crap his pants more if it's a .45 than if it's a .32 or something smaller!)

M@ /1911Fencer
 
"I intend to go into harms way."

Mr. SIGFAN'S arguments make about as much sense as his signature line. Most of us do everything possible to stay out of harm's way . . . :rolleyes:
 
Obsolete?

I also wanted to point out that that the 1911 is NOT obsolete. Sure, it's not made out of some space age nuclear hyper tensile polymer plastic hoo-ha, but it does what it is intended to do.

What does a handgun do? It fires a projectile from a metallic cartridge. Old and new handguns do the same thing. When metallic cartridges become obsolete, then the 1911 (and all other handguns) will be obsolete too!

:rolleyes:

M@/1911Fencer
 
I'm sorry, but...

...these people who chime in about every 1911 they've ever touched feeding everything right out of the box, even badly assembled "parts guns", while every Glock/SIG/Beretta/HK they've seen has been a breakage-prone jammomatic are either exaggerating for the sake of brand loyalty or living in some antimatter parallel "Bizzaro Universe" that I've never visited.:rolleyes:
 
ralphtt

My by line is a famous quote I borrowed from a British Naval captain. In my line of work as a police officer I have to go into harms way I have to plan on it and accept it. As a non leo you do not have this duty.

As for more sigs, glocks and Beretta's having more reliability problems than the 1911 thats laughable. The Beretta 92 made it through 18000 rounds with out a malfunction in the pistol trails in 85. The 1911 only made it through 6000 in 1911. Chuck Taylors glock made it through 140000 rounds with only 2 stoppedges that were fixed with new mag springs. The FBI HRT team was realistic and only wanted its new 1911's to make it through 2500 rounds without a malfunction. I guess my expierence with 1911's being less reliable is backed up by those doing these torture tests.

In fact if I see a pistol jam on the range and if I closed my eyes and guessed it was a 1911 I would be right 90% of the time.
PAT
 
I also wanted to point out that that the 1911 is NOT obsolete. Sure, it's not made out
of some space age nuclear hyper tensile polymer plastic hoo-ha, but it does what it is
intended to do.

What about the 1911s that ARE made out of the space-age hoo-ha?

ArmySon has one by Les Baer, I believe, with a polymer base frame...

Are they obsolete?
 
Oh Brother!

I can shoot the 1911 faster and more accurately than any gun I own. I started with the HKs, Sigs, and Glocks, and then tried a Kimber. That Kimber is long since gone, but I have replaced it with Baers, Wilsons, STI's and even a Vickers which never have failed me. People who shoot competitively and train seriously always seem to end up with the 1911 design. It's because it's the best design to shoot quickly and accurately if you spend a lot of time shooting. And it can be just as reliable as any Glock out there, you just may have to work to get it there. Sometimes, they are perfect from the factory, sometimes they are not. If you are a serious shooter, it's worth the effort. Don't take my word for it, ask Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, or similar ilk what they trust their life to. I guarantee they wouldn't trust a gun that wasn't reliable and didn't maximize their effectiveness.

Glock, Sigs, HKs and similar ilk are fine guns. I prefer the 1911.:D
 
yeah?

"yeah well my gun (whatever it might be) is still better than your gun (whatever it might be) "


Well, MY daddy could beat up YOUR daddy!

hehehe

:D
 
I will cheerfully trade my state of the art, oh so modedrn Vektor for any old pre war 1911 you folks have kicking around. Gary
 
Poor 355Sigfan!

The 1911 is certainly not dead, nor is it obsolete, nor will it be anytime soon. Sure, a lot of guns these days are just as good for many situations, but if I had to get into a fight and choose only a handgun it would be a 1911. That isn't just nostalgia, as my life is worth more than that.

355Sigfan, if your life is best trusted to a different piece then go for it. Heck, I know at least one person who will only trust his life to a .357 revolver and who still distrusts automatics of any kind.

Just don't tell me I'm using an "obsolete" weapon, because that's bull.
 
It seems that Sigfan is trying to validate his opinion by throwing it around that he is in L.E., and that he voluntarily puts himself in harms way so we don't have to. Well I put myself in harms way every time I step out that front door. With the numerous street gangs, drug dealers and common hard core criminals , it just ain't safe for nobody. As far as constantly bringing it up about your career, been there done that. Only did my time as a Air Force MP. Served overseas in the Phillippines where the Marxists and Muslims had a hard on for trying to get us. You don't exactly get that warm and fuzzy feeling when you find the road to the off base firing range laden with coffee cans filled with C-4 just waiting for that busload of cops. For the sake of everyones sanity stop trying to antagonize everybody, you do not need to ram your belief that your Glock 357Sig is the end all, be all carry weapon. I am just fine with my G19, CZ75, 38 snubby and the ever so obsolete 1911. Have a good day everyone. :)
 
Rob96


A poster asked about my by line I explained it. Also being a gate guard (ie MP) at a military instalation and checking doors is far different from being a cop.
PAT
 
Only did the gate guard thing occasionally, most time was spent on patrol. Duty in the Phillippines was nothing like duty at bases here in the U.S. or most overseas bases. Been in some situations that cops will never be in, but who cares. Instead of trying to ram your opinionated beliefs down someones throat try just to offer some constructive advice. Remember most members here have some unique experiences that benefit one another, you are not the only one who has steps in harms way.
 
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