.45 ACP 1911 still the King

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GSB

You're right about the Berettas. I was basically parroting what I have read. Never shot one. Looked at a few. Did not care for the controls or the general feel of the ones I looked at. To each his own. Variety is the spice of life.

355sigfan

I respect your right to your own opinion, and I apologize for overlooking the details of the post you made that got under my skin. You did indeed say that it was your opinion. I think what got me going is the fact that I have seen you express these beliefs in other posts, in a very flat-out fashion.

You are certainly entitled to believe and post that revolvers and 1911s are relics, but I think you are mistaken.

You and I disagree on many things. The utility of polls and the merits of the 357SIG cartridge come to mind. Thats O.K. with me. I don't pretend to be an expert on anything, and I'm sure you could teach me a few things. In the future I will continue to disagree with you, but I will try to keep an open mind and avoid inferrences of a personal nature.

In return I would like you to go out and buy a new revolver.:)
 
From www.glock.com

In the USA, GLOCK pistols are in use in 65 % of law enforcement agencies
Click to expand...

That said, I wonder what percentage of law enforcement agencies drive Ford Crown Victorias. It doesn't make me want to rush out and buy one. :D

bkm...
 
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what firearm the police issue. It is a moot point. The guns are often choosen on points that are utterly irrelevant for most of us civillian shooters. "Gee whiz chief, if we buy 100 of them we get a %40 discount." Well whoop dee freakin doo.

I will give Glock this, they have the best marketing department that I have ever seen. Next comes HK. They are also very good at marketing.

Issue guns. I always wonder about that. The British military issues the SA 80. One of the biggest hunks of trash ever built. But hey, the British army used to be pretty tough right?

We issue the M-16. I won't even go there for risk of started a much nastier discussion. :) But hey, the Army issues it so it must be best.

Then you look at the professionals who purchase their own guns with their own money. Look what they shoot. Hmm... I see lots of 1911s. Funny most of these hard core shooters own plenty of different guns. But I still see lots of 1911s. They must all be stupid dinosaurs. Don't they know that gun is obsolete? (How old = obsolete in the minds of some people I will never know).

The 1911 is a good gun. It isn't perfect, but nothing on this world is. But in my opinion it is the best handgun for me.

So does that mean the other pistols suck. NO! They are good too. They must be good because other people who I respect a lot shoot them and trust their lives to them.

The pizza analogy is correct. Pick your favorite. Try them all. Find the one that you shoot the best. Make sure that particular gun is reliable, not the brand as a whole, and shoot it a lot.

So you have a 1911 that sucked, or your buddy has a 1911 that sucks, that doesn't mean that mine sucks. My carry gun didn't feed 100% out of the box. I had it fixed. And now it has almost 2000 rounds of assorted ammo through it with out any sort of hitch what-so-ever (except for one round that I forgot to crimp :p ) And I happen to like it and shoot it well.

A friend of mine shoots a Glock 23. He likes it a lot. We tease each other about switching our guns. We have competed against each other, and it was only by the slimmest margin that I won last time, and that was probably more luck than any difference in our skill or weapon. Next time he will probably beat me. I don't shoot a Glock well, and he doesn't shoot a 1911 well. That doesn't mean that either one sucks. We just both have different tastes.

Ok, I'm done ranting.

Darn, I know somebody is going to bring this post up in Art of the Rifle next time we argue about the AR-15. :p
 
"You're right about the Berettas. I was basically parroting what I have read. Never shot one. Looked at a few. Did not care for the controls or the general feel of the ones I looked at." - AR-10

I can understand about the controls. I have an Elite II, which doesn't have a safety, just the decocker, and that's the way I like it with DA/SA's -- I don't see any real reason to have to mess with controls on a DA/SA except to decock.

I don't think the safety on the other 92s is as easy to manipulate without changing grip geometry than it is with the 1911, but since I haven't shot much with one of the traditional 92s, I might be wrong (I have a Kimber Ultra Carry, an HK USP .45, a Sig P232, and an Elite II, so I have a good cross section to go by on ergonomics).

As for the feel, the 92 does require fairly large hands. It's a bigger grip than my USP, and that's just plain uncomfortable for some people. The grip of the 92 either works for you or it doesn't. For me it seems just about right, but I can't imagine it working well for anyone with smaller hands.
 
When are you people going to wake up!!!!! The internal combustion engine is obsolete. The turbine is far more efficient, but fools that we are, we still drive them. Does that make it right? Does that mean there is something really wonderful about the internal combustion engine? That's what the oil companies and auto manufacturers want you to think!! You've been had!!

The .45 cartridge is obsolete. Anybody who has studied the performance data in comparison to the 10mm can easily see that. Or do you believe the FBI? If you do, you've got more problems than your gun choice.

The 1911 is obsolete. That's why gunsmiths and parts houses all over the country have made fortunes fixing and tweeking them.

I can't believe the gun rags have sold millions of copies with the same old worn out .45 photo on the cover. Talk about being stuck in a rut!

Its time to hang them ol' relics up. The industry needs new designs, new ideas, innovative thinking, or it will die a slow death.
 
RGDZORRO, just what do you think is the be all end all pistol that will put the 1911 in it's grave and keep it there? You offer negative comments but do not make a case that brand X is better (something that is lacking in many of these posts).
If you think a differnt DESIGN pistol is better, please point out reason by reason how.
 
"The internal combustion engine is obsolete. The turbine is far more efficient, but fools that we are, we still drive them."

Actually, turbines are better for applications, such as aircraft, where fairly constant RPMs are the norm. They've been evaluated for autos, and found wanting, because of the lag time in spooling up a turbine. It's just not responsive enough for normal driving, although I imagine some clever engineers have come up with ways of compensating for this.

If anything ends up replacing the piston engine, it will probably be some refinement of fuel cell technology, but not anytime soon.
 
Oh yes. I forgot the .45 is hopelessly obsolete. 90 years ago it plugged large holes into people, and it stopped doing that sometime around when the 10mm was invented. :rolleyes:

Believe the FBI? What are you talking about. They are the ones that brought the 10mm to fame with the general shooting public.

I like 10mm also but that doesn't make the .45, or the 1911, or the internal combustion engine obsolete.

They were designed to do X. They still do X. Y may also do X, and Y may be newer but that doesn't make it better.
 
Hmmmmm. I dunno why, but all of my 1911s work 100%. No Glock or SIG is more reliable than my 1911s simply because you can't top 100%.

Maybe it's because I only buy quality examples?

Maybe it's because I don't pay $$$ to have a gunsmith screw them up?

Maybe it's because I understand all mechanical devices have their design limitations, so I don't try running exotic rounds through them?

Face it, no gun design is perfect. But few guns are antiquated either. I'd say the Broomhandle Mauser, Luger, and Nambu are obsolete, but certainly not the 1911, P.38, High-Power, or any other pre-WW2 gun of similar design. And the Glock certainly isn't more advanced! Lighter, yes, cheaper to make, yes, but a big deal? No!
 
Umm... I think RGDZorro was being sarcastic in that post... but I could be wrong.

And I believe a lot of what the FBI says, its just that like anything else, it needs proper filtering. Just because the Attorney General was a jack-booted thug a year ago doesn't mean everyone in the FBI approved of it. If memory serves me correctly, there was an FBI SWAT team that refused to move in on a particular raid.

But I still think he was being sarcastic.

-Morgan
 
Ever wonder why the dominate gun in target shooting is the 1911. Simple. People who compete find out quickly what equipment is best to enable them to win. On our range the dominate gun is the 1911. When people enter competition they often change many of their ingrained ideas about equipment and firearms very fast if they are serious about wining. Few guns can match the balance, feel, reliability and most important the super accuracy of the custom built 1911. I have seen few other guns even come close.
As far as combat is concerned. The people who hit with their first shot usally win in a deadly gun fight. This in all cases rules out the double action- single action pistols. No one wants to or needs to be handicaped by such an abortion of a pistol. The farther your target is away from you the odds are that you will miss with a double action automatic. Yes I know you could thumb cock it on the draw but this is again a deadly disadvantage time wise and time is not what you have much of in a gunfight.
The competition hand guns with aluminum frames or plastic frames are more top heavy and often change their balance drastically as they are emptied. I have found the plastic guns have a hell of a lot of virbration to them and being lighter in weight they kick more and are much more difficult to control because of their inferior balance of being top heavy. There is nothing you can do about this because it is just part of the design.
The 1911 can handle jacketed as well as lead bullets for economical practice. With various new age designs all warning about shooting lead bullets, one wonders if perhaps it is the newly designed pistols that are the ones that are actually obsolete. Is it not strange that the 1911's do not suffer from all of these problems that the new wave pistols suffer from?
Has anyone ever bothered to take a look at how some of the new wave pistols lock up. In order to cut corners and make these guns a fast and as cheap as possible the manufactures did away with the locking lugs on top of the barrel. John Browning was well aware of the fact that you could head space a gun on the barrel hood. As a matter of fact he did it in the orignal 1911 but also added locking barrel lugs. He believed in making a gun a safe as possible because he said he knew that anything could and would happend to a firearm when it was put into use or abuse. Ever wonder why so many of the new wave guns keep blowing up. Maybe it has something to do with their manufactures cutting corners in the design of the pistols lock up. John Browning chose not to do it that way and that is more than a good enough recomendation to me. I would rather take my chances with the design of a genius like Browning than take a chance on the designs of the near do well copy cats that came years later.
Although the 1911 is not my favorite gun I will boldly admit it is the top handgun design being produced in the world today. Every expert worth his salt, every experienced combat veteren and every wining target shooter that has tested and used a variety of hanguns extensively would rather be caught walking naked down the street than attempt to make a foolish statement praising another design of handgun as being better than the 1911. There simply is nothing in the world today that even comes close to it.
My favorite target gun is the Sig Neuhausen P210 9mm but I am not foolish enough to walk naked down the street or claim that my favorite gun is better than the 1911. It just is't. W.R.
 
Wild Romanian

Most mobern guns far exceed the reliability of the 1911. My Sig 220 and my Glock 21 were both in a dead heat with my kimber for the accuracy game. I have beat many a person using 1911's with both glocks and sigs in competition. The 1911 was the best design it no longer is. Even Chuck Taylor understands that the Glock is a better combat weapon.
PAT
 
Well... if you want to throw names around like Mr. Chuck Rogers (:rolleyes:), how about Clint Smith? Tom Givens? US Special Forces? FBI? Rob Leatham? etc etc. These professionals have their choice of any firearm on earth. Yet, they choose the 1911. Trust me, they're not affected by some article in a gun rag that favors the 1911 or a gunsmith that has lots of 'spare parts'. Explain that.

355sigfan

If you have some factual data, please provide the sources. Otherwise, your personal experiences isn't the tell all. Nothing you have posted has any merit in the shooting industry other than personal experience.
 
OK, Time to weigh in. The 1911a1 design is NOT obsolete. It is, in fact, a reliable and well-thought-out design that, unfortunately, gets 'tinkered with' by wannabe 'smiths.

Sigfan, there are several reasons the 1911a1 style pistol is not issued by LE, to wit:

1) Psychology. The 'cocked-and-locked' carry of the design is supposedly disturbing to the public, and I was told by a senior officer that it couldn't be considered by the department because 'it makes us look like we want to shoot someone'. Go figure.....

2) Price. A good-quality 1911a1 style pistol will COST MORE than the average plastic pistol (departmental prices).

3) Weight. The all-steel 1911a1 weighs a little more than the plastic and aluminum guns. Many cops today are too weak to carry and shoot a gun that weighs 4-8 ounces more. Waaaaaa....

4) Calibre. Many people believe the 45acp to be intimidating. It is. That's a good thing. A local PD switched from a 38spl wheelgun to a 45acp auto, and assaults on officers went down soon after. Quote from an arrestee "Have you seen da BULLETS dem things SHOOT???!!!" (armed suspect asked after arrest why he didn't shoot at the cops. He indicated the officer's weapon and stated the above.) The 45acp is not a magic bullet by any means, but it has a useful psychological impact, and it does NOT have an overpenetration problem like the smaller faster rounds.

The military was happy with the 45acp. In fact, the 9mm was adopted only to match our allies' calibre of choice (NATO standardization). The Beretta was NOT chosen because it was actually superior to the 1911a1 in 45acp.

:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
The main thing that matters to me is how well I can shoot the gun I carry or compete with. I have glock berretta ruger S&W. In my OWN personal tests the winner is the 1911, colt or kimber.

100 rounds without a misfeed before cleaning is about 96 rounds more than I will need in an actual self defense situation.

I can draw and fire 10 rounds from my glock and one will be in the black at 50 feet. It wont be the first shot. I can draw and fire 7 rounds from my 1911 and the first 7 will be in the black.

End of my relevent personal comparison.

The opinion of 355sigfan is completely irrelevant to my OWN experience.
 
the 1911

First off, I don't own nor do I shoot any .45ACP pistols, let alone a 1911. However, it has to be worth something, considering its former and present users. Our own military has used it for 80+ years, and in some units, still do. Militaries in other nations still continue to use it. Various police agencies use it. Most of the people I shoot with swear by it and are reluctant at best to use anything else and at worst will forsake anything else. Its true that modern pistols can do a lot of the same things that the 1911 can and some things they can't and vice versa. Is it still the King? That depends on what critieria that exists to make it the "King." If one is talking about stopping power, the only defensive round that can top the .45ACP would be the .357 Magnum. So, on that criteria, no, its not. If one is talking about being user friendly, easy to maintain, simple to repair if out of action, then the 1911 would be here, because, its one of the simplest pistols to maintain and anyone with a reasonably sized shop will have some parts, and at the very least, magazines for the 1911. If one is talking being tough , hard to put out of action, and tolerant of harsh conditions, the 1911 would generally tie with serveral pistols,

Glocks, The Browning P35, the Makarov, the Ruger P series, the Beretta 92F and SIGs. Since all have been proven to work in all such enviroments through the various tests.

In terms of popularity, the 1911 would tie with the Glock, The SIG and Beretta, as most range shooters by my observations usually have one or two of the four mentioned.


Is the 1911 .45ACP the "King"? There is no short answer to this question, since it depends on one's own point of view.
 
As an aside if you will a DA auto is in no way more difficult to make a hit with the first shot. At least not a good one. I shoot a CZ75 and my first shot is in the same place as the rest of the magazine despite the "horrible" DA first shot. Now if you don't practice by at least dryfiring you are going to suck no matter what you shoot but if you do and the DA is not attrociously heavy it goes the same place as every other shot... just ask the DA revolver shooters.

That DA/SA transition myth is pure garbage with a decent gun of which there are many.. UNLESS your fingers are to short to span the trigger.

And comparing apples to apples. a $1500 custom smithed 1911 is not a reasonable comparison to a $500 glock a $400 CZ a $600 any thing else. Spend an extra $1000 on anything to make it better and DUH it will be better ;) Spend that on a better base gun and you'd really be rocking. Out of the box other guns do better.
 
And comparing apples to apples. a $1500 custom smithed 1911 is not a reasonable compa

For what its worth, I own 3 of these 1911's that some people think you have to spend $1500 on-in fact, I don't have that much tied into ALL of them. All 3 are series 80's, 1 an early 80, the second a 1991A1 Compact, and the latest is a standard 1991A1. I put a kings bushing on the compact model because I didn't like the spring plug set up, but NO ftf's, NO fte's, NO nothing but bang every time I pull the trigger. The only problem I have had was not watching the taper crimp on a few rounds and they would not chamber correctly. Would have happened to any wunder pistol from any place you want to name. And I know I'm not alone in this. It would be nice if a lot of these rumors started by heresay and gunwriters (see heresay) could go the way of the do-do bird. Are their lemons out there? Name me a massed produced that doesn't have problems in some of its products?
 
It looks like DSK figured me out pretty quickly. Of course I was just pulling you 1911/.45 guys' chain. I enjoy stirring the pot, and that's what my comments were designed to do. You get people to respond who otherwise would not respond.

My comment that the 1911/.45 is obsolete is rediculous. In order to be obsolete something must be: not used, useless, or not current, etc., which obviously doesn't apply to the 1911/.45. Some of you guys should have called me on that. Many of you had very interesting responses, I actually learned something. Thank you.

Heck, I don't even own a .45! Never even shot one, yet. But I sure do like the looks of that new Sig .45.

We all have our personal tastes. I have a co-worker who has been shooting and reloading for years. He has nothing but .44 mag. guns and says there is no point in shooting anything else. Who am I to tell him different? If somebody wants to spend all their range time shooting a water pistol, more power to him, as long as I'm not down range when he opens fire.

I'm extremely greatful we all have plenty of choices to shot with. That says a lot about our country.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers too much, shoot safely.
 
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