.45 ACP 1911 still the King

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I started with the 1911. Then went Glock. I still think Glocks are great guns.
But with the quality production 1911's coming out now I tried the 1911 again. I find that not only is it very accurate from the holster, the new ones are very good quality and reliable, and most shocking of all, the 1911 is very easy to conceal. When I go for ultra concealment, I grab my Kimber full size with slim grips on it. No other gun I own, even my mini-Glocks, conceal as well as this gun, and none of them are so comfortable IWB.
Why is the 1911 so comfortable IWB, and easy to conceal? Because it is so slim!
Nowadays I see little reason to carry anything other than a full size 5" 1911.
 
And while you are at it, please enlighten me on how a "modern" auto is better than a 1911, I would really like to know.

THey are better in that they are more reliable under a larger range of conditions with a greater selection of ammo than are 1911's. I have seen more 1911's fail in cold weather than I can count. Thats a big deal where I live. I have seen more 1911's malfunction at the range and in matches and in training than any other type of auto save maybe the smith series of auto's.

Are you talking about any 1911 brand in particular? Which ones do you have experience with?

I have owned the following 1911's Colt, springfield, norinco, kimber. Some were preaty good in the reliability department some sucked. The colt sucked the sprinfield was marginal. The kimber was preaty good but not up to the reliability standards of a glock or a sig.

I like 1911's are fun guns. Some chose to carry them thats fine but its not up to my standards for that role. I plan on buying a Para soon as a plinker. There is a lot of history with this gun but thats what they are not is historical firearms no more.

Also yes the Beretta is thicker than the 1911 this hardly matters in a pistol that was designed to be worn in the open for the military and police. The Beretta is lighter than a 1911 and holds more ammo and has very light recoil.
PAT
 
Sport shooting my @ss. :mad:

Did the 1911 serve us through two world wars, serveral 'police actions' and a Desert Storm or not?? (btw an ex. cavalry scout i know was ISSUED a 1911 for desert storm.. god knows how old it was and yeah, he used it. He also claimed it was 'the loosest 45 ever, but it shot everytime".)

A glock, however good it may be.. has NOT done that, nor has a sig, an HK,a Kahr, or ANY other make of pistol. The US Army went through 4 rifles, 5 if you count the m1 carbine before they replaced the 1911. (1903, Garand, M-14, M-16, not to mention numerous changes in smg, lmg and Mg's)

THAT is why the 1911 remains popular. A 1911 (or a1) was designed to shoot hardball fmj ammo. The 'tightening' of the 1911's tolerances into 'target guns" that shoot wadcutters has a LOT to do with the conception of of it as a "jammomatic". There are newer guns out there, there are guns that hold more bullets, there are guns that are more corrosion resistant, there are guns that are more accurate. There ARE NONE with a better battle record.

Love it or leave it a milspec 1911 is the king of actual experience.
Sure we LIKE the fact that the '45' was the most "powerful handgun" issued to troops, we also like the fact that Dillenger and Clyde barrow carried them, not to mention a slew of 'movie heros' so what? The 45 acp is still an american cartridge, it is an homage to the AMERICAN shooter that ANY other country produces this caliber. What choices did american shooters have in semi autos prior to 1960? VERY FEW. At the start of 'competition shooting" (based on military matches) what other choices were there? This is the leagcy of the 1911 'competition gun'. The 1911 is a combat gun, period.

The ONLY other pistol with even a remote claim to fame is the 1935 Hi-power, and that may be the best 9mm ever.

Rant mode off.
 
There ARE NONE with a better battle record.

So freaking what. I never said it was not a great pistol in history. But thats what it is now a piece of history. They were saying the same thing about the colt saa when the 1911 came out. Also the Beretta has proven it self in combat so has the sigs and the glock. Over 70% of cops use the glock in urban combat on the streets and their holding up. We must never let the past cloud our minds on the present and the futer. The 1911 is an obsolete design. Does it still work yes. A cap and ball revolver could still be used for ccw if you wanted too but would that make it a good choice I hardly think so.
PAT
 
AR10

This is a cut from my first post for your information. (ccw or police holster in my oppinion. Many disagree however)

I qualified that it was my oppinion. Do you want me to state everything I say with IMHO then I will.
PAT
 
Yadda, Yadda, Yadda!!!!:rolleyes: I will admit that the .45ACP as a cartridge has merit, but the 1911 as a launching platform??? Give me a break!!!:barf: I wanted a gun that I could shoot, not one I had to tinker with all the time, or sink money into. That's why I bought the Glock 30.:p
 
Well, I guess that makes you right and the FBI HRT wrong in the use of a 1911 and a great many other PD's and special units. My own belief is this guy purposely gets people all worked up. If you don't agree with him, you are wrong.
 
Lots of new designs have come about since the 1911 showed up-most of them contain actions that copy or nearly copy the 1911, so some of the complaints here are must be directed at the manufacturer rather than the design itself. Arguing the merits of the 45ACP as against the 9mmP, 357 SIG, shorty 40, 10mm and the rest are beating a pretty dead horse. With hollowpoints being much more reliable these days, there's probably not a whole lot of difference for the civilian shooter. I do have a huge problem with the military being saddled with FMJ's, regardless of the caliber. I think a lot of fellow veterans would agree with me that it makes no sense to be able to use claymore mines, mortars, artillery, bombs, rockets and nukes on troops, but Lord help you if hollowpoint ammo is issued to the troops! The newer designs might shuck ammo differently, but I fail to see where they do it better, provided the samples are set up the way they should be. :p
 
How is a design that is:

the easiest of large pistols to conceal,
has one of the best triggers out of the box,
is one of the fastest pistols to use from the holster
is often of of the most accurate pistols out of the box
is every bit as reliable as any other pistol out there

an obsolete design? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
The problem with 1911 pistols isn't so much the design (although there are some ways it could be improved on) as the quality control of the people making the pistols. It's inconsistent as all get-out... Colt, Kimber or SA all make alarming numbers of lemons and borderline-lemons. I've had great 1911 pistols (my Delta Elite, which is alarmingly close to perfect), good ones (Kimber was pretty good but ammo-finicky) and out-and-out trash (Para Ordinance P14 that jammed on 230gr FMJ). I'd put my Delta Elite up against virtually any handgun under the sun for quality, reliability and accuracy. Contrary to popular myth, it doesn't sound like a baby rattle when you shake it, either. :p

OTOH, I've owned a bunch of Glocks and all were ridiculously reliable, though accuracy varied from crappy to just OK to super-duper. Had a Sig that really was the mythical 100% reliable with everything gun, too. If I had to buy a gun, open the box and bet my life on it I'd pick a Glock or Sig.
 
All I know is that Last Thursday night, after a long stressful frustrating day at work I ended up at the range. I only had enough ammo to enjoy one handgun opened my trunk saw two case, My USP and my 1911, the 1911 won. And we had a wonderful time.
 
Denfoote,

You compare the Glock to the 1911? How interesting. It's to bad that Glocks are nowhere near as accurate as, say a Kimber 1911 out of the box. I've had to tinker with more Glocks than I want to remember, and there's a certain point where they don't get any more accurate. Not to mention the plastic triggers suck and they are far bulkier than the slim profile of a 1911. Sorry :p
 
Yeah Blarney, they might have a Hundreth of an inch edge over a Glock and be more tempermental to boot. The BG's really can tell in the distance of accuracy when shot in the chest:D
 
357Sigfan, do you actually have a source for these statistics, or are they literally being summoned from the ether?

"Over 99.9 percent of the worlds militarys [sic] and leo's are not wrong."

"Over 70% of cops use the glock in urban combat on the streets and their [sic] holding up."

I would guess that about 1/3 of the guns that I see among LEO's in my area (D/FW, TX) are Glocks. But I'm guessing, and my observations are anecdotal, just as it's anecdotal to note that my department is fairly typical for my area, with 43% of our full-time officers carrying 1911's, 29% Glocks, and the rest carry Sigs and Smiths.

I'm fine with Glocks as service pistols. They seem go "bang" every time their triggers are pulled, and that's a good thing in a service pistol. I shoot them well, and appreciate their simplicity of operation. But I carry a 1911. I shoot it well. It's well-made. It has a superb trigger. I trust it implicitly. I shoot it better (score-wise, group-wise, speed-wise) than anyone else in my department shoots their own choice of pistol. This means little, as I'm a shooter, and they are not. But I would shoot as much more than they, whatever model pistol I chose to carry; I like to shoot. So long as the firearm is reliable, it is the shooter, more than the pistol, that matters. But why are so many "shooters," who are better-trained and take a greater interest in pistols, choosing to carry 1911's?

I attended a Range Safety Officer class last month in which over half the class's participants were carrying 1911s of one kind or another. This class was made up of police officers who were the "shooters" in their respective departments. Why did they choose 1911s? These guys were experienced enough, one would think, to be beyond the "mystique" of the 1911-- they all had several guns in their personal collections, yet over half chose to carry the 1911. (of the others, at least one was carrying his department-mandated sidearm, which was a Beretta.) What's going on, there? Is it that 1911's are "experts'" guns? ;) I think it's more likely just that these guys liked the feel of 1911's and the way they shot with them. All of these guys shot pretty well.

On the other hand, I got my clock cleaned at an IDPA match this weekend by a guy with a Glock. First place shot a Glock, second place (NOT me) shot a 1911. (typically, these non-LEO's blew those of us who are LEO's away.) Next month it will as likely be the other way around.

There's reason to be impressed with a pistol design that still wins matches, still performs well on the street, still is arguably no worse than any other pistol design on the street, after 90 years of service. My Kimber is stainless, it's true. The stocks are not walnut (but will soon be ebony). But it's a 1911 that is almost identical in form to the design JMB originally set forth. That's impressive.

I may someday carry another pistol design that is extant today. But not because my 1911 is no longer competitive.

L.P.
 
It's to bad that Glocks are nowhere near as accurate as, say a Kimber 1911 out of the box

This is not true at least not in my case. For me the Glock 21 was just as accurate as my kimber. The 21 would group about 2. to 2.5 inches at 25 yards from a bench the kimber was about the same.

As for the stats on glocks bing in 70% of leo holsters that is based on police holsters sales and the study is a few years old. I am sure someone on this board can give me the actual study. I just read it I did not save it. If you want I will did it up. As for the 99.9 % of the worlds leo's and militarys not using revolvers just look around that is based on pure observation.
PAT
 
Your average large city has far more private security personnel than LEO's. In Dallas, it runs more than 3 to one (source, LEAPS news bulletin, put out by Dallas P.D.). A great many of those private security outfits require their personnel to wear Sam Browne belts with retention holsters (read: cop rigs). I wonder what the percentage is of security guards in large cities tha are issued or are required to carry Glocks? Probably fairly high. They're common, they're relatively inexpensive, and the order of arms is simple enough that your average security guard with the minimum of training can be expected to operate it.

Also, I've got a duty holster for my Colt Officer Model Match .38 Spl 6" revolver, but I've never carried it on the street (yet-- I may do it for a lark, some time...).

Holster sales would be a poor indicator of use of a duty weapon by LEO's on the street, IMHO.
 
A Poem -- by a confirmed revolver lover.... :D


Run in circles, scream and shout,

Which handgun, should you pull out?

The ancient Colt, or newly Glock,

The one by Browning, or the one for Spock?

All this crap, about which one's best,

Gives my head, a pressure test.

The simple fact, they're all still made,

Means that each, has its parade.

Boisterous followers, who swear to die,

With their choice, by their side.

It's all so tired, it's all so trite,

It's a good day, to fly a kite.

To get away, from the same old song,

When in truth, you're ALL JUST WRONG!

Smith & Wesson, the older makes,

Revolvers rule, the rest are fakes!

So now I'll run, and will hide,

My Model 19, by my side.

So keep your Colts, keep your Glocks,

On the antique side, I will walk.

So what's my point, for all this yap?

I just want to see, some of you snap.


Thank you, thank you, Elvis has fled the building! :D
 
Here's some more fuel for the fire ....

I recently posted on the Bullseye List and asked why the .22, .38 and .45 for competition? (Further) Are these bullets just inherently more accurate? Why isn't the 9mm used more?
The reply was, "the .32 and .38 are the most inherently accurate cartridges, although no one knows exactly why." Then, (I paraphrase) ... As to the overwhelming popularity of the three cartridges, originally the competitive shooting regimen was decreed as .22 (representing civilian caliber), .38 (representing police caliber) and the .45 (representing military caliber). Due to decades of experimentation, pistolsmithing and "tweaking", the 1911A1 .45 has come to represent the epitome in .45 accuracy. and the S&W Model 52 the epitome of .38 accuracy. When the 9mm, 10mm, .357 sig .44 calibers, and some of their favorite platforms have had as much time and attention spent on them, they may overtake the .38 and .45 in accuracy, and then, popularity. :)
'til then, keep working on tweaking those other calibers. And you might even consider petitioning the NRA to replace the military designation .45 with the 9mm.:D
45Colt - the handle says it all.
 
"Respectfully, I think the main reason people buy Berettas is because they are reliable and inexpensive. " AR-10

Well, maybe, although even the basic 92s are over 400 bucks. I don't think that's terribly inexpensive, but certainly good value for the reliability. But you start getting into the Elite series, and you're edging into H&K turf on prices.

It has been mentioned that 1911s dominate competition. I would suggest that one of the reasons for this is that they are, in essence, the 350 cubic inch Chevy small block of guns -- they have such a large user base and such a huge aftermarket of parts and of smiths who can work on them that they have become by default the customizer's choice for competition. The fact that they are ergonomically very good and can be made to be very accurate just means there is little cause to switch to somethig harder to customize due to lack of equipment options and qualified smiths.

I don't think that it means they are inherently better than other guns can be -- people win competitions with HK, Beretta and Glocks too.

As far as the .45 ACP caliber itself, yeah, I really do like the caliber. I don't know if it's the be-all and end-all of cartidges, but it's a darn fine one, with great versatility for defense, reloading or competion.
 
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