.40 cal on the way out?

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Deer are a hell of alot stronger than a human.
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Which changes the range and scope of the problem. A better effect on a much stronger target does not necessarily equate to a similar difference (of effect) on a much weaker target.

I don't have a problem with the suggestion that an animal a lot tougher and stronger than a human being (and having a pretty different physiology in general) would be better affected by a projectile with greater velocity. It might take that velocity and energy (which will be expressed in penetration) to "do the trick".

It's interesting to note that .357sig projectiles are pretty much the the same diameter as 9mm, and that 10mm projectiles are the same diameter as .40S&W.

.357sig is really just "a faster 9mm". .40S&W is really just "a slower 10mm". This should be something of a clue to people hung up on diameter as the metric of performance.

What you get for your money with the faster rounds is EITHER more penetration OR earlier (or more certain ... it depends) expansion. If you are shooting humans, the penetration isn't much of a factor, as you can already get all the penetration that does any good out of something in the 9/40/45 range. The additional (or earlier) expansion may or may not make a difference ... depends upon a lot of factors which will vary widely from case-to-case ... far too many to account for.
 
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Its not a larger target. Whitetail I kill are normally between 140-200lbs. Two lungs and a heart. These animals are tougher because of environment and conditioning. Physiologically they will succumb to a bullet impact the same way a 140- 200 lbs human will. Shot placement is everything thats why its very important that a broadside shot is made to simulate a chest shot on a man size target. Ballistic testing on goats were also a preferred method before social pressure stopped the practice.

FYI... I appreciate the candid and stimulating talk. Its great to see this. Sometimes caliber threads get hostile and personal. Everyone certainly deserves their own opinion. Kudos to everyone.

Which changes the range and scope of the problem. A better effect on a larger target does not necessarily equate on a similar difference (of effect) on a smaller target.
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There are a lot of factors that people consider when choosing a caliber and a lot of legitimate debate to be had. However, I’m not sure that departments are switching to the 9mm because they see it as “less lethal”.
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I'm just guessing it it would be political more than practical, and am no way implying that either cartridge would be more effective. I'm just thinking of those departments that will not allow hollow points or other types of ammo due to politics. Both cartridges have been proven to be quite effective, and I cannot come up with any practical reason to switch from one to the other.

In the olden days, a lot of police officers would have preferred a .45 over a .38 but were denied the choice for political reasons.
 
Its not a larger target.
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See my edits re "stronger" vs. "larger" ... done before your post, with a note that I edited for technical accuracy. Deer have stronger hide than human skin, which accounts for a greater need for penetration ... among other factors. It's not a question of size, but rather structure.

I have no doubts that 10mm does a better job on deer than 9mm.
 
Well said Sir Mystro,
Here the Wisconsin DNR will also back you up, because at deer hunting time about 700 000 of us are in the woods hunting whitetail deer, we have some experience.
Opsss...correcting , a +i
 
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I wasn't aware we were talking about hunting deer with handguns ... or bear, etc.

I'll bow out of this conversation, if I am mistaken in that regard.

Otherwise, I'd ever-so-humbly suggest we stay on topic. Deer are not a sound analog for wounding effects on human beings, for a whole slew of reasons. It's pretty much a case of "one of these things is not like the other", lol.

We don't really need an "appeal to deer", because we have sufficient "evidence on humans".

But - like I said - if we're now talking about hunting, I'll just STFU ... I know when I am out of my lane, lol. :rolleyes:
 
I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?
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I'll admit to limited experience. I've only fired a small handful of .40S&W handguns, and only own two: Glock22 and Springfield XD40.

Of the striker-fired guns, the XD40 is unusually smooth-shooting, IMHO ... much more so than my Glock or other .40S&W guns I've fired. The Ruger SR40 is also exceptionally easy to control. In both of those cases, I find them no more trouble than a similar 9mm.

Hammer-fired: Sig P229 gets my vote, based upon my limited experience.
 
I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?
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There are ALOT of good striker fire to choose from. Some of the better triggers are the Sig p320 and Walther PPQ. Outstanding out of the box triggers. The Sig p320 is very unique that it will let you exchange calibers and frame sizes all in one handgun.
 
I've heard so many old guys grumbling and blustering about the .40 ("cleverly" referring to it as the .40 short&weak), but that just because they fear change and they're mad the .40 got popular instead of the 10mm. Ammo technology, like most technology, is progressing so yes, they are able to make 9mm ammo which is better suited for LEO than the cartridge in general used to be. However, the same technology can be applied to the .40, making that even MORE superior. The cost of the 2 rounds is negligible anymore so maybe for huge departments who run through tons of the stuff, the difference in price between those two cartridges would be worth going back to 9, but for smaller departments they may prefer a slightly higher cost to the slightly lower performance than the 9. With the ammo options out there these days, I don't think one is much ahead of the other, it is more about what they already have in their arsenal.
 
However, the same technology can be applied to the .40, making that even MORE superior.
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Give an example of where that has happened?

I think you might be ignoring a few important factors:

  • The FBI/IWBA protocols identify what is probably the most ideal range of characteristics for a self-defense round.
  • There are plenty of rounds in 9/10/357/40/45 which meet those standards.
  • What is "more superior" than meeting those standards? (more penetration is a "fail") Please be specific.
  • .40S&W is already designed near the upper limit of pressure the chamber and barrel can handle ... where is that "more superior" going to come from?

.40S&W is an excellent round. What does it lack, that you propose to add? How would that be different than going to 10mm ... which is simply a faster .40S&W?
 
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If you lower the bar more pass the test making it easier to fill the quotas.

Same song different verse but that's the real reason why the pendulum is swinging in the 9s favor.
 
which .40 s&w handgun do you recommend?
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I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?
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XD40 Service

ILCCWqualtarget27oct2013_zps93ff36e0.jpg


(IL CCW qual. 10 shots each at 3, 7 and 10 yards, "keep it in the blue". Not a great challenge, but I like how this one turned out.)
 
Well, I have to agree. The .40 S&W is really "on the way out". Every time I leave my shop or house, my .40 S&W Glock 23 is on the way out with me in a Kirkpatrick holster on my right hip. An extra magazine with 12 rounds is on my left hip. So, I guess we could safely say that, "extra magazines" are also on the way out, at least when I go out. :p

http://saronagunworks.com
 
Same song different verse but that's the real reason why the pendulum is swinging in the 9s favor.
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Agree, even if saying it is politically incorrect.:D

How many times has law enforcement or military looked into replacing .40 or .45? That's all I need to know.
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To the best of my knowledge, only ones. And that was when they replaced the good ol' .45, with Mr. pipsqueak.:D
 
and almost any platform that can be chambered in 9x19mm can also be chambered for the .40 S&W.
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Which 9mm designs were successfully converted to 40SW? I think they all needed significant redesigns after unsuccesful attempts to jam the cartridge into 9mm designs.

It is impossible to predict the future, but the 40SW was made popular on a wave of "The FBI round" fame. Now the FBI says it isn't any better than 9mm. I don't see how it will possibly stay mainsream forever without someone adopting it. As LEO switch away from it price will rise even farther and hasten it's demise.
 
For full size, the Sig P229 was built for the 40 from the ground up. So was the HK USP Compact and full size USP.
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That's true for every 9mm/.40 service pistol platform designed after the introduction of the .40.
 
.45 acp is still here... .45 colt to. .38 special is still here, .380 is still here, even .32 acp is still here.

The .40 S&W and .357 Sig will be around for a while folks.

Don't sweat it.

Deaf
 
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