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.40 cal on the way out?
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Limnophile
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It's not like the movies. People do not typically bleed out of the entry and exit wounds, so much as they bleed into their own internal cavities. In many cases there is little external bleeding at all, or certainly not enough to account for loss of blood pressure, etc.
I was being facetious. I'm sure a thoroughly penetrating shot doesn't typically leave a body-wide gaping hole one can see through, but an exit wound that is more than three-times as large as the entrance wound and the additional internal damage between where a weaker shot would have stopped and the exit wound have to count for something.
As to blood loss, in terms of stopping the bad guy, it doesn't matter whether the blood is lost externally or internally. Blood sloshing around in one's body cavity does no good. But, the goal of bullet design for self defense is to promote massive tissue destruction that will result in rapid bleeding that will cause a loss of blood pressure that produces the desired (non-psychological in this case) stop.
I have seen quite a few handgun wounds up close and personal and operated on a few dozen.
In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction.
Those handgun exit wounds I have seen were not significantly bigger than the entrance wounds, maybe 50% bigger at most. They do tend to have a bit more jagged contour.
IMO unless one scores a hit on the upper central nervous system there is no physiological way to instantaneously drop an attacker. Yes, a direct hit on the heart or great vessels will likely (not invariably) be fatal, but even then the odds are good that a determined attacker will have time to shoot back at you before they drop.
Lacking a direct hit on the upper CNS, heart, or great vessels, or at least a major pelvic or femoral artery, a determined attacker could probably absorb over a dozen handgun hits before they lost enough blood to drop from hypovolemic shock. During that time they could probably empty a magazine at you.
Shotgun and high velocity rifle wounds are a completely different matter, obviously.
In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction.
Those handgun exit wounds I have seen were not significantly bigger than the entrance wounds, maybe 50% bigger at most. They do tend to have a bit more jagged contour.
IMO unless one scores a hit on the upper central nervous system there is no physiological way to instantaneously drop an attacker. Yes, a direct hit on the heart or great vessels will likely (not invariably) be fatal, but even then the odds are good that a determined attacker will have time to shoot back at you before they drop.
Lacking a direct hit on the upper CNS, heart, or great vessels, or at least a major pelvic or femoral artery, a determined attacker could probably absorb over a dozen handgun hits before they lost enough blood to drop from hypovolemic shock. During that time they could probably empty a magazine at you.
Shotgun and high velocity rifle wounds are a completely different matter, obviously.
zombietactics
New member
pblanc said:In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction.
Bingo ... this is consistent with every M.E. I've talked to, and every published source I've read. At least it's the case in the 9/38/357/40/45/10 range, but I', not going to put words in your mouth.
Limnophile said:As to blood loss, in terms of stopping the bad guy, it doesn't matter whether the blood is lost externally or internally.
True, but the point is/was that entry/exit wounds are not generally the means of a blood loss sufficient to incapacitate.
Verminator said:Yes.....well, exactly what are the chances that the 9mm would have bounced off Brown's skull?
Are there many such cases documented?
Actually, there are documented cases of 9mm rounds bouncing off of someone's head ... and .40S&W ... and .45ACP ... and even 5.56mm rifle rounds.
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Strange...
I don't have a single .40 S&W, but have 5 10mm handguns (4 autoloaders and 1 revolver). I prefer the "flexibility" of the 10mm Auto cartridge over the capacity of the .40 S&W. (BTW, my Glock Model 20 holds plenty of ammunition, and has sufficient power to accomplish the task at hand.
It seems that the .40 S&W was conceived for the sole purpose of adding capacity to the magazines of FBI Field Agents.
Let it be so.
Scott
I don't have a single .40 S&W, but have 5 10mm handguns (4 autoloaders and 1 revolver). I prefer the "flexibility" of the 10mm Auto cartridge over the capacity of the .40 S&W. (BTW, my Glock Model 20 holds plenty of ammunition, and has sufficient power to accomplish the task at hand.
It seems that the .40 S&W was conceived for the sole purpose of adding capacity to the magazines of FBI Field Agents.
Let it be so.
Scott
Glenn E. Meyer
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Has every one forgotten the post Sandy Hook ammo situation?
.40 was all there was to be had for a good while. That alone is reason enough to have one.
But is that a free market indicator that people don't like the round? There was also 327 on the shelves of Cabelas.
As far as the FBI and capacity. The 10mm was a tad much for folks and the FBI desired SW didn't run well. Thus, the 40 was developed.
The TX DPS is ditching the 357 Sig for the 9 mm and the officers I've met aren't screaming about STOPPING POWER.
Well, the 10 mm auto cartridge was developed by the FBI's request for a more powerful cartridge than the 9 mm Parabellum after the notorious 1986 Miami shootout. I guess you could say that the 10 mm cartridge was developed to allow greater magazine capacity than the .45 cal ACP would have offered. The .45 ACP had, of course long been available and might have seemed a logical choice instead of developing a whole new cartridge and purchasing all new pistols to accommodate it.
The .40 caliber S&W offers no advantage in magazine capacity over the 10 mm since they both use the same diameter case. The 10 mm case is longer than the .40 S&W so the magazine receiver of the frame must be larger in the front to back dimension. The 10 mm cartridge proved to be unsuitable for general use by FBI agents and that was the impetus for development of the .40 S&W.
Some agents had difficulty managing the recoil of the 10 mm and some with smaller hands couldn't adapt well to the grip dimensions necessitated by the cartridge. I believe there were also issues with premature wear on the FBI's 10 mm auto-loaders.
The .40 caliber S&W offers no advantage in magazine capacity over the 10 mm since they both use the same diameter case. The 10 mm case is longer than the .40 S&W so the magazine receiver of the frame must be larger in the front to back dimension. The 10 mm cartridge proved to be unsuitable for general use by FBI agents and that was the impetus for development of the .40 S&W.
Some agents had difficulty managing the recoil of the 10 mm and some with smaller hands couldn't adapt well to the grip dimensions necessitated by the cartridge. I believe there were also issues with premature wear on the FBI's 10 mm auto-loaders.
You realize there is no industry devoted to the .40 auto that is separate and apart from the industry that produces all the other calibers and the guns chambered in those calibers. It is as if these various calibers assume a life of their own and have to fight it out in the marketplace over competing calibers. It isn't like that.
What is true, however, is that there are various overlapping markets for each and every cartridge being manufactured, which these days is a huge number when you take into consideration each bullet style from every manufacturer. There are in fact relatively few handgun calibers compared with the number of rifle calibers. But there's someone out there in radio land that wants each and every one. This is not to say that any given cartridge might one day be essentially obsolete and no one makes the cartridge or guns for it. Even so, I suspect someone still cherishes their .38 rimfire.
What is true, however, is that there are various overlapping markets for each and every cartridge being manufactured, which these days is a huge number when you take into consideration each bullet style from every manufacturer. There are in fact relatively few handgun calibers compared with the number of rifle calibers. But there's someone out there in radio land that wants each and every one. This is not to say that any given cartridge might one day be essentially obsolete and no one makes the cartridge or guns for it. Even so, I suspect someone still cherishes their .38 rimfire.
Limnophile
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In my experience, unless one knows the caliber going in, unless and until you find the projectile there is no way to accurately judge the caliber just judging by the injury pattern or degree of tissue destruction.
Seems to confirm the IWBA's conclusion that depth of penetration is far more important than cross-sectional area.
Those handgun exit wounds I have seen were not significantly bigger than the entrance wounds, maybe 50% bigger at most. They do tend to have a bit more jagged contour.
My "three-times as large" exit wound is based on the cross-sectional area of a fully expanded 9mm JHP being that much larger than it's unexpanded cross-sectional area. If you're "50% bigger" is a diameter, we're not too far apart.
I've only seen one gunshot wound, but there was no exit. I've seen one arrow wound that thoroughly penetrated, but the entrance and exit wounds were the same size -- an expanding arrowhead wasn't used.
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It seems that the .40 S&W was conceived for the sole purpose of adding capacity to the magazines of FBI Field Agents.
No, increased capacity was a secondary consequence.
The primary purpose of the .40S&W cartridge was to put a level of low-end 10mm "energy" (i.e., recoil-impulse), which the average non-shooter agents (i.e., "Mulders & Scullys," hair & fiber techicians, attorneys & accountants) could still handle and qualify with, into 9mm-size guns.
Hence, the FBI-Lite 10mm ammo that Federal produced for the Bureau - a 180gn JHP @ 990fps - became the same load in .40S&W ammo which the Bureau issued to its new classes of field agents through the '90s.
If you work in big city trauma centers it is not uncommon for someone to come in with a bullet hole on both sides. For handgun bullet wounds, it is usually possible to tell which is the entrance wound and which is the exit, even if the victim can't tell you because they are unconscious or dead. But it might require some fairly careful examination to do so.
As for human entry and exit wounds one has to remember that the skin is very elastic. Thank goodness it is or else many of us would look even more hideous than we already do. The high elastin content of skin means that it will usually stretch around a penetrating projectile and then retract some as the projectile passes through. Muscle and other soft human tissues are also somewhat elastic but to a lesser degree than skin.
According to Dr Gary Roberts, who knows a thing or two about about ballistics, the typical quality 9mm hollowpoint defensive handgun round will typically expand to around .60 caliber (.60" diameter), a .40 cal S&W round will expand to around .65 caliber, and a .45 cal ACP to around .70 caliber. Full expansion usually occurs within the first few inches of penetration.
If one simplifies and assumes immediate and full expansion on impact, then the volume of the permanent wound channel is estimated by the volume of a cylinder which is Pi x radius squared x length where length is the depth of penetration. So after full expansion a 9mm JHP round will damage .28 cubic inch (ci) of tissue per inch of penetration, a .40 caliber .33 ci per inch, and a .45 caliber ACP .38 ci per inch.
Assuming a 9mm round that penetrates 14", a .40 caliber that penetrates 12" and a .45 caliber that penetrates 10.5" they will all damage or destroy around 4 cubic inches of tissue. Another way of looking at this is that assuming all good hits with full expansion and 12 inches of penetration for all, 6 hits with 9mm is roughly equal to 5 hits with .40 caliber, which is roughly equal to 4 hits with .45 cal ACP. So in terms of volume of tissue destroyed and assuming equal depth of penetration, if you can achieve 6 solid hits with 9mm in the same time you can achieve 4 with .45 cal ACP, or 5 with .40 caliber, you will be roughly equal in terms of tissue damage.
But there is another factor that comes into play since the human body is not homogenous like ballistic gel. Some human tissue is vastly more important for survival than others, brain as opposed to skeletal muscle, for example. Also, even though a 9 mm round that penetrates 12" might destroy no more tissue than the .45 caliber that penetrates 10.5", that extra 1.5" of penetration significantly increases the likelihood that the bullet path will traverse an important structure, like a major blood vessel.
Also, if you are able to achieve an extra hit or two with a smaller caliber in the same time as you can achieve fewer hits with a larger one, you greatly increase your chances of scoring an immediately incapacitating shot to the upper CNS, heart, or a great vessel.
As for human entry and exit wounds one has to remember that the skin is very elastic. Thank goodness it is or else many of us would look even more hideous than we already do. The high elastin content of skin means that it will usually stretch around a penetrating projectile and then retract some as the projectile passes through. Muscle and other soft human tissues are also somewhat elastic but to a lesser degree than skin.
According to Dr Gary Roberts, who knows a thing or two about about ballistics, the typical quality 9mm hollowpoint defensive handgun round will typically expand to around .60 caliber (.60" diameter), a .40 cal S&W round will expand to around .65 caliber, and a .45 cal ACP to around .70 caliber. Full expansion usually occurs within the first few inches of penetration.
If one simplifies and assumes immediate and full expansion on impact, then the volume of the permanent wound channel is estimated by the volume of a cylinder which is Pi x radius squared x length where length is the depth of penetration. So after full expansion a 9mm JHP round will damage .28 cubic inch (ci) of tissue per inch of penetration, a .40 caliber .33 ci per inch, and a .45 caliber ACP .38 ci per inch.
Assuming a 9mm round that penetrates 14", a .40 caliber that penetrates 12" and a .45 caliber that penetrates 10.5" they will all damage or destroy around 4 cubic inches of tissue. Another way of looking at this is that assuming all good hits with full expansion and 12 inches of penetration for all, 6 hits with 9mm is roughly equal to 5 hits with .40 caliber, which is roughly equal to 4 hits with .45 cal ACP. So in terms of volume of tissue destroyed and assuming equal depth of penetration, if you can achieve 6 solid hits with 9mm in the same time you can achieve 4 with .45 cal ACP, or 5 with .40 caliber, you will be roughly equal in terms of tissue damage.
But there is another factor that comes into play since the human body is not homogenous like ballistic gel. Some human tissue is vastly more important for survival than others, brain as opposed to skeletal muscle, for example. Also, even though a 9 mm round that penetrates 12" might destroy no more tissue than the .45 caliber that penetrates 10.5", that extra 1.5" of penetration significantly increases the likelihood that the bullet path will traverse an important structure, like a major blood vessel.
Also, if you are able to achieve an extra hit or two with a smaller caliber in the same time as you can achieve fewer hits with a larger one, you greatly increase your chances of scoring an immediately incapacitating shot to the upper CNS, heart, or a great vessel.
Limnophile
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^Isn't it true that the FBI's move to 10 Auto rather than .45 Auto was motivated by a desire for a greater capacity than offered by the 1911?
I've read that one reason for the waning popularity of .40 S&W among law enforcement is that qualification scores with 9 Luger are higher. In other words, the 10 Auto is a failed LE cartridge in large part due to recoil, which contributed to the impetus for development of the .40 S&W, and now with advances in JHP bullet technology -- driven by the advances in terminal ballistics science and performance standards that occurred in the wake of the Miami shootout -- LE is realizing that the milder recoiling 9 Luger can adequately meet its needs.
Where LE goes civilian shooters will undoubtedly follow.
I must assume that combat gaming experience has shown participating LEOs that there are substantial benefits to a milder recoil and increased magazine capacity in a gunfight, and, given JHPs that expand reliably while penetrating adequately, such benefits outweigh a reduction in entrance wound diameter from 10 mm to 9 mm.
The upcoming and long-awaited US Army modular handgun competition should be intetesting. Soldiers are generally limited to ball ammo, and most with combat experience would appreciate a larger-than-9-mm bullet. Solid bullets in .45 caliber have long been the gold standard of fight stopping on the battlefield. But, soldiers like firepower (magazine capacity), too, and logistics planners like inter-service and inter-ally compatibility -- both factors which argue strongly for sticking with 9 NATO.
Whatever the US Army decides to do will certainly influence subsequent LE and civilian decisionmaking.
I've read that one reason for the waning popularity of .40 S&W among law enforcement is that qualification scores with 9 Luger are higher. In other words, the 10 Auto is a failed LE cartridge in large part due to recoil, which contributed to the impetus for development of the .40 S&W, and now with advances in JHP bullet technology -- driven by the advances in terminal ballistics science and performance standards that occurred in the wake of the Miami shootout -- LE is realizing that the milder recoiling 9 Luger can adequately meet its needs.
Where LE goes civilian shooters will undoubtedly follow.
I must assume that combat gaming experience has shown participating LEOs that there are substantial benefits to a milder recoil and increased magazine capacity in a gunfight, and, given JHPs that expand reliably while penetrating adequately, such benefits outweigh a reduction in entrance wound diameter from 10 mm to 9 mm.
The upcoming and long-awaited US Army modular handgun competition should be intetesting. Soldiers are generally limited to ball ammo, and most with combat experience would appreciate a larger-than-9-mm bullet. Solid bullets in .45 caliber have long been the gold standard of fight stopping on the battlefield. But, soldiers like firepower (magazine capacity), too, and logistics planners like inter-service and inter-ally compatibility -- both factors which argue strongly for sticking with 9 NATO.
Whatever the US Army decides to do will certainly influence subsequent LE and civilian decisionmaking.
TheTurtle101
Inactive
I carry 9mm 90% of the time, however I prefer .40 to .45. My favorite woods load is a 200gr swc at near standard 10mm velocities. I do honestly believe .40 is better at keeping energy after punching through auto glass. 155gr .40 loads can really shred flesh similar to 125gr 9mm. I'm no expert, but the .40 is going to be around for a while. Too many people love their .40 glocks these days.
zombietactics
New member
pblanc said:... But there is another factor that comes into play since the human body is not homogenous like ballistic gel. Some human tissue is vastly more important for survival than others, brain as opposed to skeletal muscle, for example. Also, even though a 9 mm round that penetrates 12" might destroy no more tissue than the .45 caliber that penetrates 10.5", that extra 1.5" of penetration significantly increases the likelihood that the bullet path will traverse an important structure, like a major blood vessel. ...
Don't let me put words in your mouth, but I take this to mean agreement with the following notion:
The total volume of the wound channel is not of primary importance, but rather/only the part of that total wound channel which affects a vital structure, insofar as rapid incapacitation is concerned.
The total volume of the wound channel is not of primary importance, but rather/only the part of that total wound channel which affects a vital structure, insofar as rapid incapacitation is concerned.
I think we all have to agree with this. Well said.
Cosmodragoon
New member
^ Agreed to a point. There are other factors involved in threat subsidence. This is just a very good one.
Just a thought, but do we have really good contrast data on these rounds' abilities to break various bone structures?
Just a thought, but do we have really good contrast data on these rounds' abilities to break various bone structures?
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Isn't it true that the FBI's move to 10 Auto rather than .45 Auto was motivated by a desire for a greater capacity than offered by the 1911?
No, not primarily. The internecine debate at the Bureau following the 1985 Miami massacre, in which several agents had been killed and/or severely wounded, was over "stopping power" in an autoloading cartridge, as between 9mm and .45 advocates. The .40 didn't even exist then.
The 10mm AUTO, which SA John Hall introduced into the debate in 1987 using his personally-owned Delta Elite, became a third option in the later field-testing of all 3 cartridges under the Bureau's revised ballistics protocols. Those post-Miami protocols placed emphasis on the criteria of "penetration," which the 10mm's superior sectional density and velocity offered in spades. Plus, of the 3 cartridges the FBI FTU tested, the 10mm was deemed to be the most accurate. Sadly, that was not a virtue inherited by its later offspring, the .40S&W.
Hall's fellow FTU agent, Urey Patrick, wrote the Bureau's "Wounding Factors" monograph in which he lays out the various factors the FBI was looking at in selecting handgun ammunition for LE duty use.
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Only not all policemen carried .357 magnum revolvers. Before the local county police department adopted their first automatics, which I think currently are Sigs, they carried Smith & Wesson .38 specials loaded with round nose lead ammunition.
A few highly knowledgeable gun writers about, oh, 30 years ago thought a .41 magnum was the ultimate law enforcement handgun. Not bad and a few departments adopted it but it didn't really catch on. I think one writer believed that a 200-grain bullet at about 1200 fps was just about right.
I suspect that the basic problem is that, with certain notable exceptions, policemen are neither "gunfighters" nor gun enthusiasts. But it should be said that many well known gun writers like Skeeter Skelton and Charles Askins had a long career in law enforcement and were accomplished competitive shooters as well.
A few highly knowledgeable gun writers about, oh, 30 years ago thought a .41 magnum was the ultimate law enforcement handgun. Not bad and a few departments adopted it but it didn't really catch on. I think one writer believed that a 200-grain bullet at about 1200 fps was just about right.
I suspect that the basic problem is that, with certain notable exceptions, policemen are neither "gunfighters" nor gun enthusiasts. But it should be said that many well known gun writers like Skeeter Skelton and Charles Askins had a long career in law enforcement and were accomplished competitive shooters as well.
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