.40 cal on the way out?

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40 really is the mainstay....no way 9mm puts it to rest...it is just that much better in the same guns.

45 auto Is a great round...

"Better" depends on how you look at it. In those "same guns", many people find the recoil dynamics in .40 to be far less pleasant than in 9mm. Some people ascribe it to the fact of them being the "same guns" whereas a .45 might have more to balance the increase in power.

That has certainly been my experience in compact and subcompact polymer guns. I've had a few .40s and they ended up as trade fodder. It wasn't just comfort but accuracy that suffered for me. I suppose I could train it out but it just wasn't worth it to me. I'm perfectly happy with my nines in that size spectrum.

That said, I haven't tried full-size or steel forties. Is there really a niche where I wouldn't just reach for a .45 if I wanted more? Of course, if I want a lot more I just grab a revolver. :p
 
zombietactics said:
Actually, it doesn't punch a bigger hole, or is does not do so to any degree that can be reliably measured

Uh, yes. Yes it does.

For all the valid arguments against the .40, this one is simply denying fact. .40 is bigger than .35 the same way .45 is bigger than .40. Flat out. Simply.

The terminal effectiveness difference is a different discussion (and for what it's worth I mostly carry/use the 9mm), but are we seriously saying that the .40 isn't bigger than the 9mm now? Have we gotten to that 1984 doublespeak point in the caliber wars?
 
Uh, yes. Yes it does.

Bullets are so small compared to the sizes of the important structures within the human body that variation of millimeters and fractions of an inch simply do not equate to "more lethal".

The dynamics of soft tissue reactions to missiles in motion is erratic. It is possible that a major artery/vein can be in the path of an incoming bullet and have it get pushed out of the way due to certain circumstances, ie: angle, what kind of tissue was impeding the bullet, density of tissues involved, etc.

The human body is not a cardboard box with paper inside.
 
That's all fine, Evil Monkey, but the post I was responding to was literally claiming .40 does not punch a measurably bigger hole than 9mm.

That's simply, factually, false. To the point of the absurd. Obviously bigger projectiles punch bigger holes.

What that means is a completely different conversation.
 
Please don't get started on the caliber war again.
You cannot compare cartridges by caliber, mass, momentum or kinetic energy.
They don't represent real world effectivenes, e.g. bullet with twice the energy/frontal area will not be 2x as effective.
You cannot compare them by ballistic gel, expansion diameter, retained weight or anything else people like to measure either. A bullet with 2x the terminal cavity won't be 2x as effective.
What internet commandos need to understand is that terminal ballistics aren't that simple.
We are complicated biological structures, not rectangular pieces of gel or milk jugs.
The truth is, there is very little difference between handgun rounds.
 
The truth is, there is very little difference between handgun rounds.

When you compare them to a rifle, yes they are all wimpy, but when you compare them to each other the percentages of difference in diameter, velocity and overall energy delivery can be as high as 30%, maybe more.
For example, compare the numbers of standard 9mm to those of a 45+p.

Speaking of rifles... the more I've thought about what ammo is best over the years, the more I keep coming back to the effectiveness of small diameter rifle rounds and I've been adopting the "velocity is king" mentality.
Honestly, of all mass-produced semi-auto pistol rounds, I think the 357Sig and 10mm are at the top of the heap.
I just wish they were more popular and the shelves full of it.
 
It doesn't matter how popular something is to me. If I want it, I don't let logic stand in the way. Cost is always a factor. But I'd rather have a .357 Sig anyway.

I didn't know the 9mm was for women and wimps. Keith said the .357 magnum in an S&W Model 19 was just the thing for those with weak hands. He thought the 9mm Model 39 was about as small as you'd want a gun to be.
 
I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm mugged by a bunch of cans.

The 9 and 38 special behave the same.
The 40 and 357 magnum behave the same.

What do you shoot for comparison? Volunteers are hard to come by.
 
This is often misstated. 9mm isn't "just as damaging" as .40 S&W or .45 ACP. When both are loaded with modern ammunition, 9mm produces wounds that are very close to .40 or .45, but it's not the same. For many people, the difference is small enough that it is far outweighed by the advantage produced by lower recoil (faster splits) and higher capacity. .40 S&W also has a little better barrier performance, especially against auto glass and sheet metal than 9mm does.

I really hope the police departments all ditch their .40 pistols. Lots of really cheap G22s and G23s if they do. Except, maybe not so much cheap .40 ammo but I reload. I also reload for 10mm and having the ability to use the same dies, bullets, powder, etc. is really handy.
 
but when you compare them to each other the percentages of difference in diameter, velocity and overall energy delivery can be as high as 30%, maybe more.
For example, compare the numbers of standard 9mm to those of a 45+p

none of that matters. The science behind wounding the human body using projectiles doesn't support what you're trying to say.

That explains why no one is buying 1911s these days.

you can be sarcastic all you want. The 45acp cartridge is be relegated to tier 2 status and its price is sky rocketing.
 
I assume you're referring to the Colt Government Model and it's many imitations. You realize they cost twice as much as many other handguns and so do most Smith & Wesson revolvers in any caliber.
 
There is no measurable difference in "stopping power" between any of the common service calibers. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and the obsolete .38 Special and .357 Magnum all perform essentially identically in human targets. Test after test has shown virtually no increase or decrease in stopping power among these rounds. It's been proven over and over that tests like Marshall and Sanow are bunk and were very poorly done.

Shot placement is all that matters. Capacity, reliability, and controllability also all make a difference.

Groups like the FBI and various police departments around the country are finally realizing these facts, and many are switching to 9mm for good reason, but I predict the .40 S&W will be around for years still.
 
... Uh, yes. Yes it does.

I'm genuinely not trying to be obstinate or insulting, but ...

No, it doesn't, and this has been validated by dozens of clinical examinations, in cases where the rounds are recovered. You are mistaking the difference between a potential effect (based upon the diameter of the projectile) vs. the actual effect on living tissue (which stretches quite a bit)

In many cases the the diameter of the wound channel is actually smaller than the diameter of the round ... because living tissue stretches. It's very much the case that two projectiles with different diameters create holes the same size ... as the tissue stretches out, deforms, and then returns to the same sized "hole" or wound. In order to produce different-sized wound channels the tissue needs to be stretched to a significantly larger size - to the point of causing a larger failure (tearing, etc.) of connective tissue.

This can be demonstrated in about 10 minutes in a lab on living things, as gruesome as that may sound.

Alternately, you can do an experiment yourself which makes the point by analogy, assuming you aren't squeamish. Get a 14g needle and a 18g needle and poke yourself in the arm with both. The diameter of the needles are different, but not enough for one to cause a bigger wound than the other. You'll even get identically-sized blood droplets on your arms. If you do the same test with a 18g and a 10g needle ... you'll see a difference, as the "delta" in diameter is great enough to cause more failure of tissue and ergo a larger hole.

It works the same way with handgun bullets. There isn't enough difference in diameter to cause the tissue to stretch and fail outside of a given range.

You'd get different results with paper, cardboard, wood, etc. ... any medium which does not stretch when penetrated. You can clearly see a difference between 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP ... as they make neat (non stretching) holes in those media.

For all the valid arguments against the .40, this one is simply denying fact. .40 is bigger than .35 the same way .45 is bigger than .40. Flat out. Simply.

It's not denying any demonstrable fact regarding the effects on living tissue. You're simply confusing the potential with the actual.

You cannot simply take note of the "thing doing the wounding" without reference to the mechanism by which the wound is created, and the effects on "the thing being wounded".

Don't be stubborn. This is well-known science.

It's more of a difference than that number indicates. The amount of tissue damage is a function of the area of the leading edge of the bullet, which is Pi * R(squared). Since it's squared, the effect is larger than the simple diameter difference implies.

Also, unless you're only going to use FMJ, you'd need to compare the differences between properly expanded hollow points to be meaningful.

Measurements (and equations) of the projectile are simply expressions of a potential effect. The actual effect depends as much (or more) upon the thing being hit, as the thing doing the hitting. This is a basic metrological principle.

The proper point of comparison is not the projectiles, but the wounds created.

A comparison of actual wounds (decades of data by now) indicates that there is either no difference, or that any slight difference noted is insignificant given effects on physical incapacitation.
 
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Anyone actually kill anything these these two rounds??? I am talking real first hand knowledge?????? I kinda have pretty much made my mind up with my own empirical data from what I have seen with shooting large deer with handgun hunting. Deer are a hell of alot stronger than a human. I have killed deer with the 357mag and 10mm and the shot placements were all about the same being broadside double lung shots. Now before anyone looses their mind and say that these are different calibers, let me explain. I reload both calibers and have taken a few deer with both. The 10mm loaded down producing 500 ftlbs of energy with a 155gr. About what a 40S&W Hornady produces. My 357mag rounds were producing about the same 500 ftlbs of energy with a 158gr bullet. That is a bit more than what a 9mm will produce but still close enough for this comparison. Without a doubt the 10mm had more of a impact on the deer than the 357mag did. I noticed this on all occasions up to the point that I stopped using the 357mag and will only use a 40cal and up handgun for hunting. All deer were recovered with both 10mm and 357 bullets at full expansion. Deer shot with the 10mm fell quicker and had noticeably a quicker death. One was even a bang/flop.
There is no way anyone is gonna tell me a 9mm with less ftlbs and smaller diameter wound channel has equaled the much more powerful and larger 40. This is especially true that my loaded 357mags are even hotter than the the hottest 9mm. If I can tell a difference with a 357/10mm then there is sure as heck a bigger difference with the even less powerful 9mm and 40 comparison. Physics is physics and they have always proven to be true when actually killing a large mammals. The largest bullet with the most energy always wins. New high tech bullets and studies sell magazines and have some validity being ONE test or source of info. They sure as heck are not the final word or even untainted by outside influences that have other agendas proving a end result. All I can tell you is what I have first handily seen and experience being a handgun hunter for over 20 years with many game under my handgun belt.

I like and carry the 9mm all the time and know it has a proven track record (with high performance ammo) but I also carry the 40S&W ,10mm, 45acp in my larger combat size guns and it always is the preferred choice because of its increased power.
In other words,... the 9mm is great if the size of the handgun has to be small and compact or recoil is a issue for the shooter. You cant beat some of the small 9mm pocket pistols for firepower and portability. Larger calibers like the 40 and 45acp will always trump the 9mm in larger combat size handguns for their increased power.
It still boils down to what all the experts have said over the years...."Shoot the largest caliber you can control".
 
which .40 s&w handgun do you recommend?



Depends on the size you like to carry. For full size, the Sig P229 was built for the 40 from the ground up. So was the HK USP Compact and full size USP. The FNS or FNX is also a great choice at a great price point. Walther PPQ is a sweet full size but lightweight striker fire if thats what you like.
The Glock 27 is great for a compact but very snappy recoil. In a compact size below the G27 or Shield 40, the 9mm is probably a better choice and significantly easier to control.

I carry the HK USP Compact 40 the most over the last 20 years. It just feeds everything, light weight, and combat proven. It also can be carried in any condition. It feels like a light weight polymer P229.
My P229 Dark Elite with a TLR1 is my nightstand gun.





 
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