.40 cal on the way out?

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I think the lethality/power/energy arguments miss the point.

For one... The 9mm in recent years, using modern bullet designs... Has shown to be just as effective as other pistol calibers, when it comes to stopping a threat.

40 has also benefited from the modern bullet designs, but it hasn't remained significantly better than 9 in that aspect.

The 40 still has the same disadvantages/cons compared to 9 as it always had... Recoil and capacity being examples

But 40 still has a lot of advantages/pros over 9 as before... Things like barrel performance and consistency.


Some things matter more to a police force than to civilian self defense.


40 has its place, and likely will for a long while.
 
The market determines whether it stays or goes. the .40 has swept the market faster than any other non-military cartridge than i know of. The market is still climbing for it. There area lot more people with 9's who'd rather have a .40, than people with 40's who'd rather have 9's.
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The market might still be climbing for it in absolute terms, since the market is climbing across the board (though maybe not anymore), but its market share is declining. The .40 hasn't surpassed the 9mm in pistol sales in any year on record, and it's been losing ground to the 9mm for more than a decade. These days, the sales numbers of the two calibers aren't even close.
 
Was someone watching the snow fall and get bored? Another Caliber war thread? Anyway, no the .40 will die about 5 seconds after the 9mm does. Heck they still make calibers from the turn of the century... Heck they still make cap and ball!
:rolleyes:
 
If they are switching back to 9's, its probably more about using something "less lethal" than it is about recoil.
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There are a lot of factors that people consider when choosing a caliber and a lot of legitimate debate to be had. However, I’m not sure that departments are switching to the 9mm because they see it as “less lethal”.
 
At my range most empty shells are .40. 40 is also the most widely used by police in my area except the state troopers they use 357 sig. If the 40 models are being outsold by 9mm today it's because of the reputation it has for recoil. New shooters are advised (wisely so) to make their first purchase in a "more manageable" calibre and then move up to another when and if they feel ready. I'd be willing to say most of these new shooters are women and/or looking for something small and concealable. I have to admit the talk had me going too for a while about recoil and "follow up shots" and so forth before I bought my g23. I notice no difference in its recoil from my (former) g19. That is the size in a pistol I like best for its purpose. The wife fell in love with my 19 so I wrapped it up for Christmas last year that and 4 boxes of hp ammo, but no again 40 isn't going anywhere if nothing else because it's a good middle road compromise and the sheer number of "crossover suvs" i see on the road tells me thats something people seem to be into.
 
The .40 is here to stay, no doubt about that. Agencies that might switch away from the .40 do so mainly based on cost, as the 9mm is somewhat cheaper and that plays the biggest role.

For the platform size, the .40 offers a lot of performance but it comes with the price of a little bit more recoil, which never bothered me in the least.

In ways it's better than both the 9mm and the .45 with the benefits of both. It has 9mm like capacity and frame size with performance that is, in ways, better than the .45 ACP, flatter shooting and more "energy" that honestly isn't that far from a 10mm (G22 180gr @ 1200 vs G20 180g @ 1300).

Obviously others will disagree and that's fine, but I would agree that it's silly to say the .40 is no better than the 9mm but in the same breath say the .40 isn't as good as the .45 is, and I mean cartridge potential, not comparing factory ammo where all 3 are designed to perform nearly identically. All three are more than capable of stopping a threat but the .40 deserves more credit than what it gets, it offers the most power in the best size handguns.
 
Crankgrinder,

If it's good enough for Texas, then it should be good enough for everyone else.;) God Bless Texas!
 
Even if every agency dropped .40 tomorrow, it wouldn't go away. There are lots of guns chambered for it. Think about it. My LGS stocks all kinds of "obsolete" ammo, like .32 S&W and .218 Bee! So I think its safe to say that the youngest person here will still be seeing .40 well into old age, even if they stop making guns for it.
 
I agree there is a trend to move from .40 S&W to the 9mm.../ but will many dept's do it ...I don't know..../ but I don't think so.

In my own safe --- in terms of what I shoot thru semi-auto's the most:

60% 9mm in 1911 platforms
25% .45 acp in 1911 platforms
10% .22 lr ...
5% .40 S&W ....in Sig 226's or 239...
------------------
In terms of what I carry in a caliber in semi-autos :
75% .45 acp in 1911's
20% 9mm in 1911's
5% .40 S&W in Sig 239
 
.40 cal on the way out?
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Probably not in the foreseeable future. Just way too many pistols out there and the cartridge does punch a bigger hole and carries more energy than 9mm. The cost is a round or two in the mag between similarly sized 9/40 frames.

I will admit that I do feel a little better carrying a 40 instead of a 9mm or 45 ACP. It's a good compromise between capacity and delivery.
 
... the cartridge does punch a bigger hole ... than 9mm ...
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Actually, it doesn't punch a bigger hole, or does not do so to any degree that can be reliably measured ... in living things anyway, which have all sorts of odd stretchy tissues.

In paper or cardboard ... yes, a measurably larger hole ... 45/1000th of an inch to be exact ... which could be the greatest possible theoretical distance in tissue as well.

... carries more energy than 9mm. ...
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Not necessarily (or even typically) true. There is a LOT of overlap in terms of KE comparing various loads and bullet weights/types. Unless you are talking about something really weird, both top out at about ~490-500 ft-lbs of force. It's kind of a moot point, as ft-lbs of force is not any kind of reliable metric concerning wounding effects.

The real advantage of .40S&W appears to be its performance through incidental barriers like windshield glass. It maintains trajectory better than 9mm or 45ACP, owing to a better balance of velocity/momentum than the other two. It's not quite the huge deal it's made out to be, but it's a significant effect.

Regardless, I don't see .40S&W going anywhere soon, It's too popular with too many people.
 
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Every time you say the 9mm is "almost as good", I remember officer Darren Wilson, so just why did he have to fire 12 times?:eek:

Editing......
Something else too. Seems to me the Army is looking for "something better":o
 
Plenty of folks prefer 40 - it's not on its way out....

At least not until folks finally wake up and realize that 10mm is better!:D
 
45/1000th of an inch to be exact
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It's more of a difference than that number indicates. The amount of tissue damage is a function of the area of the leading edge of the bullet, which is Pi * R(squared). Since it's squared, the effect is larger than the simple diameter difference implies.

Also, unless you're only going to use FMJ, you'd need to compare the differences between properly expanded hollow points to be meaningful.

Seems to me the Army is looking for "something better"
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Maybe, but since they're limited to hard ball ammo and we're not, I don't think this is particularly relevant to the rest of us.
 
The 40 is on the way out the barrel and into the target. I love it in the Walther PPS.

Go shoot some cans with a 9 and a 40, watch them bounce twice as far with the 40, and just try to convince yourself they're the same. Who are you going to believe, the statisticians or your lying eyes?
 
Hold on now!

9mm will always be popular... If it goes away, what will women and whimps shoot? :D

40 really is the mainstay....no way 9mm puts it to rest...it is just that much better in the same guns.

45 auto Is a great round...the best! Still 7 vs 15 or so...15 wins. I'll still carry 45. It is the professionals round.
 
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