.357 Magnum vs. .45 ACP

[Webleymkv]

Quote: "Power: I fail to understand how 600-700 ft.lbs. in a handgun is overkill when 1100+ ft.lbs. in a rifle (5.56 NATO) and 1500+ ft.lbs. in a shotgun (12 gauge) is considered ideal for personal defense."

It would be a bit foolish to use a rifle for self defense in a civilian situation too, in my opinion. The shooter had better have a big checkbook to pay for all the stuff they make a hole through when they shoot somebody with a rifle in a neighborhood. One of the basic rules of gun safety is - "Know what's behind your target." Whatever happened to that on these forums?

Apparently you're not familiar with the penetration characteristics of the .223 Remington/5.56 NATO cartridge. Both the M193 and M855 loadings display only 4 and 2 centimeters more penetration respectively in gelatin than the 158grn LSWCHP +P .38 Special "FBI Load" due to yawing and fragmentation.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M193.jpg

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M855.jpg

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/38%20Spl%20FBI%20load.jpg

Quote: "In Double Tap's gelatin tests, their 10mm ammo with 165grn and 180grn Speer Gold Dot bullets penetrated .25 and .5" more respectively than .40 S&W loadings with the same bullet."

Then why use 10mm at all if the only justification for the extra flash and recoil is .25" extra penetration?

You must not have noticed the expanded diameters in my link. The 165grn 10mm expanded to 1.02" as opposed to 0.70" with the same weight .40 and the 180grn 10mm expanded to 0.96" as opposed to 0.68" with the 180grn .40.

So why not use 41 mag or 44 mag or 500 S&W for self defense then? What exactly is the ceiling for a reasonable round for civilian use in an urban setting out of a handgun?

The ceiling is the most powerful gun that the individual can handle the recoil of and is small enough to be practical for its intended purpose. A S&W 629 .44 Magnum is my EDC in the winter.

 

[drrpg01]

So what about my other question? What exactly is the ceiling for a reasonable round for civilian use in an urban setting out of a handgun? Should somebody light off a 44 mag in the middle of a busy mall in self defense? Not everybody who buys a 10mm is going to go for the loadings that don't overpenetrate.

 

[drrpg01]

Quote: "The ceiling is the most powerful gun that the individual can handle the recoil of and is small enough to be practical for its intended purpose. A S&W 629 .44 Magnum is my EDC in the winter."

Well, then, you and I won't ever agree on this, bud. Max power isn't my answer. Marksmanship, yes. Safety, yes. I've just never been convinced that power is usually the problem. In most gunfights I've ever heard about - never been in one - the problem was that the shooter couldn't hit the right spot, not that their gun wasn't powerful enough.

 

[Webleymkv]

So what about my other question? What exactly is the ceiling for a reasonable round for civilian use in an urban setting out of a handgun? Should somebody light off a 44 mag in the middle of a busy mall in self defense? Not everybody who buys a 10mm is going to go for the loadings that don't overpenetrate.

The ceiling is dependent upon the individual and his or her individual circumstances. For me, it's a .44 Magnum loaded with 240grn Speer Gold Dots, for you it may be something else. Obviously a gun that has uncontrollable recoil or is too large to be practically carried wouldn't be a suitable CCW, but these criteria vary on an individual basis. There just isn't any one-size-fits-all answer.

Any handgun round from .32 ACP up can overpenetrate depending on the circumstances and ammunition used. Not everyone who buys a 9mm or a .40 S&W is going to go for JHP and FMJ in both of those calibers have a great risk of overpenetration. Even JHP's in most popular defense calibers can overpenetrate. The FBI's penetration standard (which most premium JHP ammo strives to meet) is 12-16". This depth is easily completely through the upper chest of an average adult male assuming a straight on shot. The answer here is to be aware of your target and what's beyond it. If at all possible, you should try to shoot from an angle that minimizes the risk to innocent bystanders should your bullet overpenetrate regardless of what caliber or ammo you've got. Overpenetration is, IMHO, an issue best addressed through tactics rather than equipment.

 

[drrpg01]

Quote: "Any handgun round from .32 ACP up can overpenetrate depending on the circumstances and ammunition used. Not everyone who buys a 9mm or a .40 S&W is going to go for JHP and FMJ in both of those calibers have a great risk of overpenetration."

Very true

Quote:

"Even JHP's in most popular defense calibers can overpenetrate. The FBI's penetration standard (which most premium JHP ammo strives to meet) is 12-16". This depth is easily completely through the upper chest of an average adult male assuming a straight on shot."

Now you're agreeing with what I said a few posts ago!

Quote: "The answer here is to be aware of your target and what's beyond it. If at all possible, you should try to... minimize the risk to innocent bystanders should your bullet overpenetrate regardless of what caliber or ammo you've got."

That's the kind of posts I wish we were seeing more on here.

 

[Webleymkv]

I don't think you understand the FBI's reasoning behind their penetration standards. Basically, they want to ensure that they've got adequate penetration for whatever circumstances they might find themselves in. What might be adequate penetration in a straight-on shot to the upper chest might be too shallow in a shot at an oblique angle or in one that must penetrate intermediate barriers such as the targets extremities (arms, legs, hands, feet, etc.) before reaching the vitals. Adjustment of tactics can more easily compensate for overpenetration than underpenetration. In the heat of the moment, tactics are much more easily adjusted than ammunition.

 

[drrpg01]

Hah, maybe I need to buy a 10mm now. I don't own a big bore S&W revo. I do own a lot of the 38/357 variety though. I've never come across an S&W revo that I wasn't impressed with.

 

[Webleymkv]

Hah, maybe I need to buy a 10mm now. I don't own a big bore S&W revo. I do own a lot of the 38/357 variety though. I've never come across an S&W revo that I wasn't impressed with.

Perhaps one of these would strike your fancy

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&published=1&beginIndex=0&resultType=2&attributeName1=Caliber&attributeValue1=10mm%2F.40S%26W&attributeValueType1=STRING&attributeValueOperator1=EQUAL&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&published=1&beginIndex=0&resultType=2&attributeName1=Caliber&attributeValue1=10mm&attributeValueType1=STRING&attributeValueOperator1=EQUAL&isFirearm=Y

 

[drrpg01]

Quote: "What might be adequate penetration in a straight-on shot to the upper chest might be too shallow in a shot at an oblique angle or in one that must penetrate intermediate barriers such as the targets extremities (arms, legs, hands, feet, etc.) before reaching the vitals."

Yeah, I hadn't thought of the oblique angle possibilities. Not sure any caliber is going to accomplish some of that, though. I've seen head imaging of bullets that barely penetrated the skull and only barely went into the brain (1-2"). When you start hitting major bone structures, I'm not sure I would trust anything about what any caliber bullet might do. Too many possibilities for deflection, stopping, etc. Not sure many civilians ought to find themselves in all these tactical scenarios though.

 

[drrpg01]

Those are nice links. I do own a new S&W in stainless with rubber grips (a 4" 67), and what they're producing now is quite nice. I like the quality that I see from S&W, both old and new. When I buy a big bore S&W revo, it will likely be a mint 4" model 29. I saw one in nickel one time that I almost bought. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the Dirty Harry sized 29, but 6-1/2" is a heck of a lot of barrel. As for 10mm, I'd probably go with an LEO type for the sake of my collection - maybe a Glock or something. Right now I'm wanting to get a 45 ACP of some type - don't have one. But, then I also saw a mint model 15 4" that's in a little better condition than the one I have. So, I'm all over the place.

 

[BillCA]

That's exactly my point - "downloaded 10mm round." 40 S&W is more than enough for self defense. The hot 10mm rounds I hear people talking about sound like a hunting round, not a self defense round. It's like using a 180gr 357 mag round for self defense. Pointless. It's a free country - do what you please. Just for the benefit of average Joe Reader out there - think before you buy. Excessive power can be too much of a good thing - harder to control and can get you into some legal trouble, etc. It's hard to convince a jury of "self defense" when you're carrying around a bazooka. Further, if a person can't defend themselves with a 40 S&W round at almost 1200 fps and almost 500 ft lbs of energy, there's a problem alright, but it ain't the gun nor the bullet.

Currently, the only .40 S&W ammo that generates the numbers you're talking about are in the lightweight 155gr class. That means a bullet that is short for it's caliber and gives up a greater percentage of its energy when encountering barriers or bone. The original Norma load was a 200gr @1300fps and ~750 fpe. That's very close to the .41 Mag's 210g/1300/788fpe stats.

That's exactly my point - "downloaded 10mm round." 40 S&W is more than enough for self defense. The hot 10mm rounds I hear people talking about sound like a hunting round, not a self defense round. It's like using a 180gr 357 mag round for self defense. Pointless. It's a free country - do what you please.

"More than enough" according to whom? I don't recall any experts getting on a witness stand and telling a court that "once you exceed n-foot-pounds of energy the results are always immediately fatal" .. or even anything close to that. Certainly not in light of individuals like a guy named David Jerome who took a .44 Magnum (240gr JSP) through his right kidney with the bullet exiting his body... and he still ran almost a quarter mile before being caught and he survived. Taking roughly 740 ft-lbs through the kidney and still being upright is amazing enough. But being able to function for several minutes is astounding.

Well, then, you and I won't ever agree on this, bud. Max power isn't my answer. Marksmanship, yes. Safety, yes. I've just never been convinced that power is usually the problem. In most gunfights I've ever heard about - never been in one - the problem was that the shooter couldn't hit the right spot, not that their gun wasn't powerful enough.

So, why aren't you carrying a .32 S&W Long revolver? Or a .32/.380 ACP? Probably for the same reason most of us choose a large caliber. We simply are not going to be perfect marksmen under the stress of defending against someone doing violence against us. Larger bullets help make up for small margins of error in our point of aim. Bullets that penetrate deeper help incapacitate faster.

 

[drrpg01]

Quote: "Currently, the only .40 S&W ammo that generates the numbers you're talking about are in the lightweight 155gr class."

Those are the ones I use.

 

[drrpg01]

Quote: "Certainly not in light of individuals like a guy named David Jerome who took a .44 Magnum (240gr JSP) through his right kidney with the bullet exiting his body... "

Those are outliers. You could pull out examples of people being shot once in the chest with a 38 spl snub nose and keeling over. All this example proves is that a high powered caliber doesn't necessarily help anything, and it has a lot of disadvantages that I've already mentioned.

 

[drrpg01]

Quote: "So, why aren't you carrying a .32 S&W Long revolver? Or a .32/.380 ACP?"

I'm just recognizing the range of what is considered normal SD/LEO use. You don't see cops carrying 44 mag. Why? Not necessary and in many instances disadvantageous. You don't see cops carrying 32 long anymore either. Why? Street cred says it isn't enough. Street cred doesn't say that 40 S&W or 357 sig or 45 ACP isn't enough. People who've used these calibers in real street situations are delighted with the outcomes. There aren't many LEOs using 10 mm either. Hah, maybe in Montana where they might need to shoot an enraged moose or something instead of a human. Again, do what you please. The original post was about 357 vs 45. My response was the 357 and 45 are both at the upper end of what you need if you're a good marksman in a self defense situation. Either one is fine, and the effects of a light 357 mag compared to a heavy 45+p will probably be about the same. The ballistics are pretty close. Anything more is overkill IN MY OPINION. I think the evidence backs me up. If a 10 mm was necessary, people who are more likely to find themselves in gunfights - military, police, etc - would be using it. They aren't.

Quote: "Larger bullets help make up for small margins of error in our point of aim."

Not really. They are more effective if they hit the right spot. They are just about as equally ineffective if they hit the wrong spot.

 

[ClydeFrog]

10mm .357sig .357mag/.45acp....

This topic is going all over everywhere but I'd add this;

A 1911a1 model 10mm(with a Federal Hydra-Shok HP) is what Harold Fish used in his defense. Fish was charged and CONVICTED in the event; AZ vs Fish. Jury members told NBC News that Fish's use of a "powerful" 10mm pistol & hollowpoint rounds were a part of their guilty conviction of Harold Fish. A "expert witness" also explained in the trial how no law enforcement agency in the US issued the 10mm 1911a1 pistol.
Before any members fly off the handle, Fish's case was over-turned and he is now a free man but these are important issues to consider if you pack a 10mm for duty/CCW.

As for the .357sig, it's so popular with major LE agencies like the US Secret Service, FAMs(air marshals), Texas DPS, VA State Police, etc because it WORKS! These agencies have no reason to switch or change calibers if the sworn members want it or if it gets the job done.
All of these handgun calibers can work well; .357magnum, .40, 10mm, .357sig, .41magnum, .44spl, .45acp. It depends on the ammunition, marksmanship, firearm etc to get the best results.
Clyde F

 

[Webleymkv]

A 1911a1 model 10mm(with a Federal Hydra-Shok HP) is what Harold Fish used in his defense. Fish was charged and CONVICTED in the event; AZ vs Fish. Jury members told NBC News that Fish's use of a "powerful" 10mm pistol & hollowpoint rounds were a part of their guilty conviction of Harold Fish. A "expert witness" also explained in the trial how no law enforcement agency in the US issued the 10mm 1911a1 pistol.
Before any members fly off the handle, Fish's case was over-turned and he is now a free man but these are important issues to consider if you pack a 10mm for duty/CCW.

The only reason that the 10mm was even a factor in the Fish case was because the defense attorney was a very poor one. Fish's lawyer could have easily argued that the 10mm has been used by U.S. law enforcement agencies including the FBI and Kentucky State Police. He could have also pointed out that 1911's are used by many LEO's including LAPD SWAT and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team. Also, the use of a 10mm was far from the only factor in Fish's conviction as there were many other suspect factors including the lack of a weapon in the hands of Fish's attacker and the distance at which the shooting occurred.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Could vs didn't...

In re; to the Fish incident, criminal case:

What a defense lawyer could do and what they DO in open court are 2 different things.
Never in my post did I state that the ONLY factor in the trial or jury verdict was Fish's use of the 10mm or the 1911a1 model. The female juror(who was there and voted) made the statements to NBC/Dateline. I agree that there could be many reasons why Harold Fish was convicted. I say why put the apples in the barrel? Carrying a modern, well made firearm with factory produced, powerful rounds(that other US law enforcement agencies carry) looks way, way better in a criminal/civil court trial then looking at the judge & jury and saying "hey, so what". Or "I don't care about that.".

CF

 

[Webleymkv]

Actually, it was not that Fish used a 10mm, but rather that he used hollowpoints that the juror had a reaction to.

Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/page/5/

No less than Massad Ayoob has said many times that pointing out that nearly every major police department in the country uses JHP's should be a sufficient defense for their use.

Also, the defense never even tried to argue that the prosecution was wrong in that the 10mm was too powerful for police use. Several LEO agencies have used the 10mm.

http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10user.htm

This is a fact which I cannot understand why the defense did not point out. Likewise, I can't understand why they didn't defend Mr. Fish better against the whole JHP argument. It really sounds to me like Fish didn't have very good lawyers.

 

[SuperRuger]

Bigger bullet doesn't nessesarily mean squat. The fact is is the 45 acp has little knockdown energy at all which is why you might need 10 of them fired from no more than 15 ft away. A 45 colt has about 200ft/lbs less energy at muzzle than a 357 mag much less the 45 acp. A 4" 357 is just as easy to handle as the semi is and you will have much more knockdown power. In case you can't tell i am very bias towards a revolver. They fire everytime, no jams, and the cleaning and maintenance is much easier. I think people watch to much tv with the semi autos and because that is what law enforcement carries they think this has to be best. Most of the people who want 10 or more rounds to hit center mass can't hit the broad side of a barn which is why they need 10. The proper load fired from the proper gun fired by someone who can shoot should only need 6 or less to do the job or else you should probably practice a little more. About the only advantage i could see with a semi is if you are afraid of recoil in which a semi would be easier on you. Good Luck and remember,,,,REVOLVER.

 

[skoro]

I'm a lucky guy. I have both 357mag revolvers and some 45acp 1911s.

Here's how I break it down:

The 357 is the better cartridge, but the 1911 is the superior platform. So, I tend to shoot the 1911s a lot more than the 357 revolvers. But the 357s are what I keep loaded for HD.