.357 Magnum vs. .45 ACP
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Ironically, the other day, I read parts of a 35 page long article written by a person who has spent a number of years doing autopsies in a morgue, . . . and though I did not read all 35 pages, . . . I was impressed at the logic he used, his conclusions, and most of all that he would write all that he did.
I could not find the actual post, but fortunately, I emailed the info to some friends, . . . so I got the info out of it and will email it to anyone who wants a copy of it. Just send me a pm and I'll get it off to you.
The long and short of the 35 pages was his suggestions echo many sentiments here: shot placement is the most important of all criteria, followed with his experience saying that the .45 and .357 were the best of the fight stoppers he had seen.
May God bless,
Dwight
I could not find the actual post, but fortunately, I emailed the info to some friends, . . . so I got the info out of it and will email it to anyone who wants a copy of it. Just send me a pm and I'll get it off to you.
The long and short of the 35 pages was his suggestions echo many sentiments here: shot placement is the most important of all criteria, followed with his experience saying that the .45 and .357 were the best of the fight stoppers he had seen.
May God bless,
Dwight
I'm a 10mm guy myself.. regarding bullet weights, DoubleTap 135gr NOSLER JHP screams at 1608fps and 767ft-lbs. I wouldn't call that "behind" any .357 or .45. Likewise, the 180gr Bonded-Defense JHP and 200gr FMJ-FP (1275fps and 722 ft-lbs) are intimidating loads. And at $41 for a 50-round box, while pricey, I wouldn't call them entirely price prohibitive.
Regarding the grip size (Glock 20, double-stack 1911, etc) it depends on the size, strength, and flexibility of your hands now, doesn't it?
And that's the rub.. as somebody else said, you can't remove the platform from the caliber. The best round for "you" is the one "you" can practice with and eventually shoot well and confidently. If you're best with a .380 Ruger LCP because you have smaller hands and slender wrists, then that's probably the best option for defense.
Between any of the the more common primary duty/defense rounds (9mm, .357, .45, 10mm, and comparable) fact is if you deliver 2 hot ones in some chucklehead who isn't wearing body armor, chances are you're going to win the fight.
If they are wearing body armor, that's another story, but then a handgun really isn't the right tool for the job! Get your AR or shotgun slugs and go to work.
Regarding the grip size (Glock 20, double-stack 1911, etc) it depends on the size, strength, and flexibility of your hands now, doesn't it?
And that's the rub.. as somebody else said, you can't remove the platform from the caliber. The best round for "you" is the one "you" can practice with and eventually shoot well and confidently. If you're best with a .380 Ruger LCP because you have smaller hands and slender wrists, then that's probably the best option for defense.
Between any of the the more common primary duty/defense rounds (9mm, .357, .45, 10mm, and comparable) fact is if you deliver 2 hot ones in some chucklehead who isn't wearing body armor, chances are you're going to win the fight.
If they are wearing body armor, that's another story, but then a handgun really isn't the right tool for the job! Get your AR or shotgun slugs and go to work.
I have one more comment for all you folks who think you like .357 or 10mm for defensive carry or home defense. You might want to fire a round without ear protection, just once. WARNING - this may cause hearing damage.
But, if you've never fired a 10mm round without hearing protection, you'll be in for a real shock if you every have to do this in a defensive situation. The report is nothing like 9mm, or even .45. I forgot my hearing protection and fired off a round of 10mm once, and it was quite painful. I guess, in a situation where it's life or death, hearing falls somewhere down the list....but, again, if you've never heard 10mm without hearing protection, you may have a moment of hesitation due to the startling report.
But, if you've never fired a 10mm round without hearing protection, you'll be in for a real shock if you every have to do this in a defensive situation. The report is nothing like 9mm, or even .45. I forgot my hearing protection and fired off a round of 10mm once, and it was quite painful. I guess, in a situation where it's life or death, hearing falls somewhere down the list....but, again, if you've never heard 10mm without hearing protection, you may have a moment of hesitation due to the startling report.
Decible levels for firearms is more closely related to pressure not volume or power. 10mm at 35K psi will not be much louder than 9mm +p at 35k psi.
.45 acp is a winner in this catagory for the amount of power vs noise.
A revolver does project noise more toward the shooter so a 357 @35k will be a little louder than a 10mm auto. however IIRC (I cant find the chart right now) all defensive handguns were between 150db and 160db.
It really comes down to whether you prefer an auto or a revolver. Power-wise, I'd say that a "normal" .357 Magnum and a "normal" .45 Auto +P are roughly equal with a slight edge going to the .357 for the wider variety of bullets that it can use. The .357 Magnum definitely has the superior size-to-power ratio as I don't know of any .45's (outside of some sort of derringer) that come in a package the size of a J-Frame S&W. The .45, on the other hand, has the better recoil-to-power ratio. The .45 has the advantage in capacity and reload speed, but only significantly if we're looking at double-stack magazines. The .45's advantage is greatly reduced if we compare a single-stack .45 to an 8-shot .357 revolver with moonclips. Shootability is really a personal thing. I, personally, shoot my DA revolver better than any of my autos, including my 1911.
Stevie-Ray
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Huh?
Gee that's funny, my Colt Mark IV .45 and Colt Delta Elite in 10mm feel the same if I pick either of them up.
spacecoast
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It's odd you didn't cite the Double Tap 125 gr. .357 JHP with 710 ft-lbs or the 158 gr. JHP with 688 ft-lbs. Or even the Fiocchi 125 gr. JHP with 755 ft-lbs, or especially the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. JHP with 774 ft-lbs.
Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo tops out at a paltry 728 ft-lbs, so clearly the .357 mag is superior.
+1 Skans. No point killing one of your 5 senses (and maybe those of your family member's too) if you do have to fire in SD. For that reason I would only have at my disposal a subsonic round (.38, .45 or .380) inside the house or car. I suspect that the sound of a 12-gauge shotgun, while very close to the sound barrier of 1,125 fps at sea level, would be more dispersed and less painful and damaging overall than the clearly supersonic crack of a .357 or 10mm bullet.
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When I was on embassy duty during the Marines, we carried State Dept issued, snubnose SW Model 19s. Our normal carry loads were .38spl Nyclad (the +P variant), but we did have .357 Hydra-shoks as well. Although I was very comfortable with a .357 snubbie, I must admit I would have preferred a .45 for the extra power (and firepower) over the .38 and minus the muzzleblast of the .357.
Although very neutral, here are my thoughts:
I like them both and have carried both on duty. .45 is my first choice in autoloader while .357 is my first choice in revolver. Both wonderful American classics.
Capacity could be an issue depending on the use. However, for your standard civilian self defense situation, I don't think this is an issue. 6, 7, or 8 with a speed loader should be sufficient to defend and create distance.
.357 in a snubbie is not nonsense. It may not make sense to some, but others might find it the perfect situaiton.
I like them both and have carried both on duty. .45 is my first choice in autoloader while .357 is my first choice in revolver. Both wonderful American classics.
Capacity could be an issue depending on the use. However, for your standard civilian self defense situation, I don't think this is an issue. 6, 7, or 8 with a speed loader should be sufficient to defend and create distance.
.357 in a snubbie is not nonsense. It may not make sense to some, but others might find it the perfect situaiton.
mothermopar
New member
I carry a 357 mag., S&W 340M&P as a backup and off duty. I wish I could carry my Colt XSE 5" 1911 in 45 ACP as my primary. Does that answer your question?! LOL
Both are 2 of the best fight stopping handgun calibers.
With either of these you do not need 'more power' as either is fully capable of penetrating a BG through and through... those who preach 44 mag, 10mm, etc. are talking shiat. They're great, powerful handguns, but you won't know the difference if you hit a person with it, and neither will they. Your follow-up shots may take longer due to recoil, however. The 10 and 44 mag will just more easily go through the BG.
Ideally, you want your bullet to STOP inside the BG... AFTER it has penetrated to the vitals... that way, all of the bullet's energy is expelled INTO the BG, and not into pushing the bullet out the backside and into a wall or car... that's just wasted energy. Either a 357 or 45 ACP is more likely to STOP in the BG than a 10mm or 44mag. BTW: both the 357 and 45ACP will penetrate through enough common barriers (wood doors, car doors, etc) and still get the job done as to not even worry about it.
Don't even consider temporary wound cavities as a reason to argue for a 44 mag or 10mm... temp cavities aren't a huge factor until you get into the 2600 fps range... and that's rifle territory.
357 and 45 ACP (and its older brother the 45 Colt) have killed more BG's and stopped more fights, more quickly, than any other handgun caliber(s).
As for which to pick, you can't go wrong with either. Get both. I own both and am buying a 45 Colt revolver (which can be hot loaded to surpass the 44 mag, should I find myself needing to stop an attacking tractor).
EDITED TO ADD:
What are the historically most popular law enforcement and military rounds? 45 ACP/45 Colt and 357 Magnum. Why? They work. They work equally well. Well enough in fact that many law enforcement agencies authorize their use, are going back to these calibers (from 9mm) or are adopting another fine round, the 40 cal. Pick your poison. Especially now with modern design and propellants, the 45 ACP/45 Colt are truly shining.
IF I had to choose ONLY one caliber for defense against people... it'd be the 45 Auto with good 230 grain bonded hollowpoints scootin' along at about 900 fps (aka: Winchester PDX1).
Both are 2 of the best fight stopping handgun calibers.
With either of these you do not need 'more power' as either is fully capable of penetrating a BG through and through... those who preach 44 mag, 10mm, etc. are talking shiat. They're great, powerful handguns, but you won't know the difference if you hit a person with it, and neither will they. Your follow-up shots may take longer due to recoil, however. The 10 and 44 mag will just more easily go through the BG.
Ideally, you want your bullet to STOP inside the BG... AFTER it has penetrated to the vitals... that way, all of the bullet's energy is expelled INTO the BG, and not into pushing the bullet out the backside and into a wall or car... that's just wasted energy. Either a 357 or 45 ACP is more likely to STOP in the BG than a 10mm or 44mag. BTW: both the 357 and 45ACP will penetrate through enough common barriers (wood doors, car doors, etc) and still get the job done as to not even worry about it.
Don't even consider temporary wound cavities as a reason to argue for a 44 mag or 10mm... temp cavities aren't a huge factor until you get into the 2600 fps range... and that's rifle territory.
357 and 45 ACP (and its older brother the 45 Colt) have killed more BG's and stopped more fights, more quickly, than any other handgun caliber(s).
As for which to pick, you can't go wrong with either. Get both. I own both and am buying a 45 Colt revolver (which can be hot loaded to surpass the 44 mag, should I find myself needing to stop an attacking tractor).
EDITED TO ADD:
What are the historically most popular law enforcement and military rounds? 45 ACP/45 Colt and 357 Magnum. Why? They work. They work equally well. Well enough in fact that many law enforcement agencies authorize their use, are going back to these calibers (from 9mm) or are adopting another fine round, the 40 cal. Pick your poison. Especially now with modern design and propellants, the 45 ACP/45 Colt are truly shining.
IF I had to choose ONLY one caliber for defense against people... it'd be the 45 Auto with good 230 grain bonded hollowpoints scootin' along at about 900 fps (aka: Winchester PDX1).
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scorpion_tyr
New member
1. My hearing is a priority far far far under my life or the life of my loved ones.
2. It may cause hearing damage, but due to the stress and adrenaline in the situation you're not likely to even hear the gunshot.
3. Have you ever fired any firearm indoors w/o hearing protection? They are ALL loud.
I see a lot of hypothesizing about the effects on hearing of a subsonic caliber like .38 Special or .45 ACP as opposed to a supersonic one like .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto. What I think many don't understand is that even subsonic cartridges like .45 ACP are still loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage. The decibel level of even a .22 Long Rifle is enough to cause permanent hearing damage if fired without hearing protection, particularly if fired indoors. You really aren't "saving your ears" by choosing a subsonic caliber. While a cartridge like .357 Magnum might be much less pleasant to shoot without hearing protection at the range, factors like auditory exclusion come into play under a higher stress situation like hunting or self-defense. I've experienced auditory exclusion firsthand while hunting. While I did hear the gunshot, it didn't seem nearly as loud nor did my ears ring like they do when I shoot at the range without hearing protection (something I've done but try not to make a habit of). While auditory exclusion won't save you from long-term hearing damage, neither will a subsonic bullet.
Originally posted by mothermopar
The problem is that no bullet that will always reliably stop inside the BG has sufficient penetration to always reliably reach his vital organs. This is why the FBI's penetration criteria are so deep (12-14" is enough to possibly go completely through the upper chest of an average adult with a straight-on frontal shot). While less penetration may be adequate under ideal circumstances, it is preferable to also have enough penetration to reach the vitals should the shot be made at an odd or oblique angle or should it have to penetrate extremities or intermediate barriers before reaching the BG's vitals. Basically, most feel that it's better to overpenetrate than to underpenetrate.
While temporary cavitation might not always play a significant role in incapacitation, that doesn't mean that it never plays a role either. Even Martin Fackler, the main opponent of energy and temporary cavity as a wounding factor, admits that temporary cavitation can play a significant role in certain tissues. The human body is not homogenous and not all tissues react the same way to gunshot wounds. While certain tissues like muscle are don't show significant damage due to temporary cavitation, other more delicate tissues like the liver, certain nervous tissues, and small blood vessels can be significantly damaged by temporary cavitation. In my opinion, greater temporary cavitation is beneficial so long as adequate penetration and the ability of the shooter to properly place their shots isn't sacrificed.
I've often seen a certain velocity quoted as the point at which temporary cavitation starts to matter (figures quoted range anywhere from 2000fps to 2700fps) but I've never seen much documentation nor a satisfactory explanation as to why velocity, in and of itself, would make the temporary cavitation effective or ineffective. I think this stems from an attempt to explain why small-diameter rifle cartridges are more effective than large-diameter handguns by those who don't understand the relationship of velocity, energy, and temporary cavity. Temporary cavitation isn't directly related to velocity, it's directly related to how the energy is transferred to the target. The reason that high-velocity cartridges tend to create larger temporary cavities is because velocity is the most efficient means of generating energy (the formula for energy is mass times velocity squared). However, an increase in mass can also increase energy, just no so dramatically as an increase in velocity. Many of the hottest handgun loadings like top-end .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, and .500 S&W are able to achieve energies that rival and sometimes surpass those of smaller rifle cartridges like .223 Remington even though their velocities are much lower. They are able to do this because the mass of their bullets (200-500grn) is exponentially larger than that of the .223 (40-80grn). Also, it is often ignored that there are rifle cartridges like the 45-70 which display effectiveness on par with that of other rifles but attain much more sedate velocities (typical 45-70 velocities are 1400-1900fps depending on the weight of the bullet). These cartridges are able to do this because despite their relatively low velocities, they are able to generate comparable energies to other rifles through the use of much heavier bullets.
Originally posted by mothermopar
The problem is that no bullet that will always reliably stop inside the BG has sufficient penetration to always reliably reach his vital organs. This is why the FBI's penetration criteria are so deep (12-14" is enough to possibly go completely through the upper chest of an average adult with a straight-on frontal shot). While less penetration may be adequate under ideal circumstances, it is preferable to also have enough penetration to reach the vitals should the shot be made at an odd or oblique angle or should it have to penetrate extremities or intermediate barriers before reaching the BG's vitals. Basically, most feel that it's better to overpenetrate than to underpenetrate.
While temporary cavitation might not always play a significant role in incapacitation, that doesn't mean that it never plays a role either. Even Martin Fackler, the main opponent of energy and temporary cavity as a wounding factor, admits that temporary cavitation can play a significant role in certain tissues. The human body is not homogenous and not all tissues react the same way to gunshot wounds. While certain tissues like muscle are don't show significant damage due to temporary cavitation, other more delicate tissues like the liver, certain nervous tissues, and small blood vessels can be significantly damaged by temporary cavitation. In my opinion, greater temporary cavitation is beneficial so long as adequate penetration and the ability of the shooter to properly place their shots isn't sacrificed.
I've often seen a certain velocity quoted as the point at which temporary cavitation starts to matter (figures quoted range anywhere from 2000fps to 2700fps) but I've never seen much documentation nor a satisfactory explanation as to why velocity, in and of itself, would make the temporary cavitation effective or ineffective. I think this stems from an attempt to explain why small-diameter rifle cartridges are more effective than large-diameter handguns by those who don't understand the relationship of velocity, energy, and temporary cavity. Temporary cavitation isn't directly related to velocity, it's directly related to how the energy is transferred to the target. The reason that high-velocity cartridges tend to create larger temporary cavities is because velocity is the most efficient means of generating energy (the formula for energy is mass times velocity squared). However, an increase in mass can also increase energy, just no so dramatically as an increase in velocity. Many of the hottest handgun loadings like top-end .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, and .500 S&W are able to achieve energies that rival and sometimes surpass those of smaller rifle cartridges like .223 Remington even though their velocities are much lower. They are able to do this because the mass of their bullets (200-500grn) is exponentially larger than that of the .223 (40-80grn). Also, it is often ignored that there are rifle cartridges like the 45-70 which display effectiveness on par with that of other rifles but attain much more sedate velocities (typical 45-70 velocities are 1400-1900fps depending on the weight of the bullet). These cartridges are able to do this because despite their relatively low velocities, they are able to generate comparable energies to other rifles through the use of much heavier bullets.
Yep, and a revolver vs. semi-auto added in there also. Tossed out there like bait-- always with a fish ready to chomp on it in spite of the many tons of thread material at ones's fingertips with a proper serarch.
I carry the .45. The .357 has much more recoil, and blast will split your ears.
And don't ask why that's relevent in a SD situation and point out that noise would be the least of my worries. It's because the one ear I have left could still be damaged further--auditory exclusion and all-- that's why.
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