spacecoast
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See post #3
.357 Magnum vs. .45 ACP
- Thread starter alberich
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See post #3
Just came in less than 30 minutes ago from practice DA shooting my Dan Wesson 357 with 2 hands, right hand and left hand. It is my primary HD gun. Tomorrow I will take out my 45 and do the same thing. Its my preferred competition gun and carry gun. I do not want to shoot either inside so I load up the revolver with 38 spcl. In my experience the 357 is worse inside without hearing protection but I aint volunteering to shoot either one in my house at dark thirty in the morning. I grab gun and flash light, not shooting glasses and ear muffs when I investigate bump in the night noises. When you get old you think about things like that.
Stevie-Ray
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Not needed. This is what a 10mm looks like when firing a simple 200 grain Double Tap load, from a distance of about 20 miles.
BTW, I rely on .45 ACP every day. I have never owned a .357 and probably never will, though I have nothing against them. For me, .45 ACP is the best self-defense cartridge available.
FairWarning
New member
The .45 ACP, simply on the basis of noise. The .357 has an absolutely ear-splitting report, not something you want to shoot without hearing protection. And what are the chance you'll be wearing hearing protection when your life is on the line? The .357 is loud enough to be disorienting, although it easily has superior ballistics.
Quote - "The DA revolver, using full powered .357 ammunition, is harder to control than a 1911 .45 ACP for fast second shots. The DA pull of the revolver is harder to generate good hits than the SA trigger of a 1911. The grip of the 1911 is also more ergonomic than the revolver. All this leads to a better chance of good hits. And it’s those good hits that count. Not only the first hit be every hit you make."
Written by someone who is truly biased against revolvers. I shoot better with a S&W 4" revolver than I do with just about anything, DA or otherwise. So... not universally true...
As for 357 vs 45, just keep in mind that some loadings of 45 can run a tad slow before you get too hooked on the "bigger is better" oversimplification of handgun ballistics. Also, look at the effects of either in hollow point in gelatin and I would be surprised if you think one cavity looks bigger than the other. More likely than not, they will be almost identical. Either is a top of the heap round.
As far as 10mm - overkill.
All these caliber peeing contests really are humorous though. I was at the range next to a guy and his budddy today who thought they were really special with their 45 ACP. He kept bragging about his "groupings," which might be pretty good if he was aiming at an elephant. I just chuckled in the next lane with my 4" S&W chambered in 38 spl as I was churning out "groupings" as tight as about 2" or so at a further distance. Caliber isn't everything. If the other guy can hit between the eyes on a bad day, doesn't really matter what caliber the opponent has. I'd concentrate more on practicing than debating calibers.
Written by someone who is truly biased against revolvers. I shoot better with a S&W 4" revolver than I do with just about anything, DA or otherwise. So... not universally true...
As for 357 vs 45, just keep in mind that some loadings of 45 can run a tad slow before you get too hooked on the "bigger is better" oversimplification of handgun ballistics. Also, look at the effects of either in hollow point in gelatin and I would be surprised if you think one cavity looks bigger than the other. More likely than not, they will be almost identical. Either is a top of the heap round.
As far as 10mm - overkill.
All these caliber peeing contests really are humorous though. I was at the range next to a guy and his budddy today who thought they were really special with their 45 ACP. He kept bragging about his "groupings," which might be pretty good if he was aiming at an elephant. I just chuckled in the next lane with my 4" S&W chambered in 38 spl as I was churning out "groupings" as tight as about 2" or so at a further distance. Caliber isn't everything. If the other guy can hit between the eyes on a bad day, doesn't really matter what caliber the opponent has. I'd concentrate more on practicing than debating calibers.
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My thoughts are that either the .357 or the .45 will pretty much give a one shot disabling wound reliably enough, if you hit the right place, with top grade ammo. So will the 10 mm, so will the 40, to a lesser degree. Among them, I think that "fate" will be a bigger factor than cartridge choice. Choose among any of those, buy good ammunition, learn how to hit a perp in the lungs, and then double tap. NOBODY should survive that and continue to fight.
Choice of bullet and cartridge is actually the last factor to consider. First is training and ability, and if you can use one better than the other, that should be what decides what you carry.
Choice of bullet and cartridge is actually the last factor to consider. First is training and ability, and if you can use one better than the other, that should be what decides what you carry.
.357magnum vs .45acp for duty/protection uses...
The .357magnum has maintained a solid rep for many, many years as a proven fight ending round. The 125gr JHP magnum had a 94-96% chance of a 1 round stop(based on around 500+ documented events).
Many firearms trainers/tactics instructors suggest the 110gr JHP .357magnum for short barrel(2-3") models.
Today in 2010, there is really no reason IMO to use a DA revolver for duty/carry use. A BUG(back up) or 2nd gun could work but new modern .45acp pistols & rounds make much more sense. More rounds, faster reloads, less weight, and lower recoil are some of the valid reasons for a .45acp.
The .357sig is better than the .45acp or .40S&W too but there are many well made .45acp duty pistols, both full size & compact that will do very well.
A .357magnum DA revolver(or better yet a DA only design,
) could work as a home/business protection weapon but it's no real match for the .45acp/.357sig.
The .357magnum has maintained a solid rep for many, many years as a proven fight ending round. The 125gr JHP magnum had a 94-96% chance of a 1 round stop(based on around 500+ documented events).
Many firearms trainers/tactics instructors suggest the 110gr JHP .357magnum for short barrel(2-3") models.
Today in 2010, there is really no reason IMO to use a DA revolver for duty/carry use. A BUG(back up) or 2nd gun could work but new modern .45acp pistols & rounds make much more sense. More rounds, faster reloads, less weight, and lower recoil are some of the valid reasons for a .45acp.
The .357sig is better than the .45acp or .40S&W too but there are many well made .45acp duty pistols, both full size & compact that will do very well.
A .357magnum DA revolver(or better yet a DA only design,
) could work as a home/business protection weapon but it's no real match for the .45acp/.357sig.I agree that there are other rounds to consider out there nowadays besides 45 acp and 357 mag. 357 sig or 40 S&W would definitely make the list. In my opinion, 357 sig is better than all of them, but it wasn't on the list. Flat trajectory - amazing accuracy, speed for penetration, crimped neck for hyper-reliable feeding, high capacity, muzzle energies over 500 ft-lbs, etc, etc.
However, again, I would caution folks out there reading who think that just because somebody has a revolver, that means they wouldn't win a gunfight against you or anyone else with a semi. Foolish assumption for starters. Who wins the gunfight has more to do with who's holding the gun and what they can do with it than it has to do with the gun or the caliber. There are plenty of people out there carrying 5 shot 38+p snubs, and don't think they don't know how to use them or that it wouldn't be a match for somebody with a 45 acp. I would put my money on the bet that it all comes down to who's lucky/calm/prepared enough to get the first one or two shots off right.
However, again, I would caution folks out there reading who think that just because somebody has a revolver, that means they wouldn't win a gunfight against you or anyone else with a semi. Foolish assumption for starters. Who wins the gunfight has more to do with who's holding the gun and what they can do with it than it has to do with the gun or the caliber. There are plenty of people out there carrying 5 shot 38+p snubs, and don't think they don't know how to use them or that it wouldn't be a match for somebody with a 45 acp. I would put my money on the bet that it all comes down to who's lucky/calm/prepared enough to get the first one or two shots off right.
Catfishman
New member
I do not believe that 94 out of 100 people shot once with a .357 Magnum or any other handgun round, will fall over immediately. I also don't understand the statement that a 10mm is overkill.
I think the 10mm is overkill because you don't need 600-700 ft lbs of energy in a self defense round. Also, it was rejected by the FBI because of overpenetration. Overpenetration raises the risk of collateral damage. A responsible shooter would be interested in minimizing that risk. You choose a caliber based on purpose. If your purpose fits 10mm, fine. But, from what I've seen, 10mm is overkill for most of the purposes that people choose it for.
oneounceload
Moderator
The REAL damage will still be done whether you have auditory exclusion or not
I'm well aware of that hence the part about the ringing in your ear which is called tinitis. I'm also well aware of the long term affects of it as I have been an avid shooter for 30+ years and have worked in a factory for the last 22.
I have on many occasions been exposed to gunfire without ear protection and I know 6 more .357s fired in a hallway is not going to have a REAL effect on my long term hearing.
Just to clarify...
The FBI chose a downloaded 10mm (180 grain bullet at about 980 fps) because it offered better tactical penetration than either of the 9mm or the .45 ACP loads tested at that time.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
The folks at Winchester and Smith & Wesson shortened the 10mm case and called it the ".40 S&W," because it duplicated the ballistics of the downloaded 10mm and allowed for guns with a smaller grip frame.
Frank C. Barnes; Cartridges of the World; Krause Publications 2006, 11th Edition, p. 303.
That's exactly my point - "downloaded 10mm round." 40 S&W is more than enough for self defense. The hot 10mm rounds I hear people talking about sound like a hunting round, not a self defense round. It's like using a 180gr 357 mag round for self defense. Pointless. It's a free country - do what you please. Just for the benefit of average Joe Reader out there - think before you buy. Excessive power can be too much of a good thing - harder to control and can get you into some legal trouble, etc. It's hard to convince a jury of "self defense" when you're carrying around a bazooka. Further, if a person can't defend themselves with a 40 S&W round at almost 1200 fps and almost 500 ft lbs of energy, there's a problem alright, but it ain't the gun nor the bullet.
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There's a lot of misconceptions flying around here about the 10mm
Overpenetration: With identical JHP bullets, the 10mm isn't going to penetrate much more than a .40 S&W due to its higher velocity and thusly greater expansion.In Double Tap's gelatin tests, their 10mm ammo with 165grn and 180grn Speer Gold Dot bullets penetrated .25 and .5" more respectively than .40 S&W loadings with the same bullet.
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Official-10-ordinance-ge-t40940.html
Also, the FBI was not particularly concerned with over-penetration when they adopted the 10mm.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf (note the question about over penetration in the FAQ section)
Recoil: this is very subjective and dependent upon platform. I've never shot a Delta Elite (reputed to be the hardest kicking 10mm semi-auto) nor a Glock 20 or 29 (reputed to be among the mildest recoiling). However, my S&W 1076 firing Double Tap 180grn JHP (advertised velocity of 1350fps) was actually slightly more controllable than my S&W 1911 with standard pressure 230grn FMJ .45 ACP and roughly equal to my CZ-75 with Winchester Ranger 127grn +P+ 9mm. It has nowhere near the recoil of either my S&W Model 66 nor my Model 28 firing 158grn .357 Magnums in either and feels like a .22 long rifle when compared to my S&W 629 firing 240grn .44 Magnums.
Power: I fail to understand how 600-700 ft.lbs. in a handgun is overkill when 1100+ ft.lbs. in a rifle (5.56 NATO) and 1500+ ft.lbs. in a shotgun (12 gauge) is considered ideal for personal defense.
Liability: I've heard often that too powerful a cartridge will make you look bad in court. I've also heard that a semi-automatic, a gun too big, a gun too small, a gun the wrong color, JHP ammunition, Handloaded ammunition, FMJ ammunition, and a single-action revolver will make you look bad in court. I'm beginning to wonder what won't make you look bad in court and where all the good lawyers have gone.
Overpenetration: With identical JHP bullets, the 10mm isn't going to penetrate much more than a .40 S&W due to its higher velocity and thusly greater expansion.In Double Tap's gelatin tests, their 10mm ammo with 165grn and 180grn Speer Gold Dot bullets penetrated .25 and .5" more respectively than .40 S&W loadings with the same bullet.
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Official-10-ordinance-ge-t40940.html
Also, the FBI was not particularly concerned with over-penetration when they adopted the 10mm.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf (note the question about over penetration in the FAQ section)
Recoil: this is very subjective and dependent upon platform. I've never shot a Delta Elite (reputed to be the hardest kicking 10mm semi-auto) nor a Glock 20 or 29 (reputed to be among the mildest recoiling). However, my S&W 1076 firing Double Tap 180grn JHP (advertised velocity of 1350fps) was actually slightly more controllable than my S&W 1911 with standard pressure 230grn FMJ .45 ACP and roughly equal to my CZ-75 with Winchester Ranger 127grn +P+ 9mm. It has nowhere near the recoil of either my S&W Model 66 nor my Model 28 firing 158grn .357 Magnums in either and feels like a .22 long rifle when compared to my S&W 629 firing 240grn .44 Magnums.
Power: I fail to understand how 600-700 ft.lbs. in a handgun is overkill when 1100+ ft.lbs. in a rifle (5.56 NATO) and 1500+ ft.lbs. in a shotgun (12 gauge) is considered ideal for personal defense.
Liability: I've heard often that too powerful a cartridge will make you look bad in court. I've also heard that a semi-automatic, a gun too big, a gun too small, a gun the wrong color, JHP ammunition, Handloaded ammunition, FMJ ammunition, and a single-action revolver will make you look bad in court. I'm beginning to wonder what won't make you look bad in court and where all the good lawyers have gone.
ROFL on that last sentence, WebleyMKV. 
I'm currently qualified (by Nevada's somewhat quirky CCW rules) to carry any revolver or a Springfield 1911 concealed. My revolver and main carry gun is an S&W Model 60 .357 with a 3" barrel. I shoot .38 +P, .357, *and* .45 ACP in practice a lot. Overall, I'd say that shooting self-defense loaded .45 ACP out of the full-sized Springfield 1911 that my husband got for Christmas produces slightly less recoil than shooting the Winchester Silvertip .357s I carry for SD when hiking does from the Model 60.
When target shooting, I also shoot tighter groups with the 1911 than I do when shooting .357 with my own Model 60. <wry grin> But I suspect that the smaller revolver with the fairly heavy DA trigger is probably responsible for that.
As best I can tell, for SD the decision between .357 and .45 is a judgment call and can be different for each person. They're both good rounds. You should pick the gun and round that you shoot best.
I'm currently qualified (by Nevada's somewhat quirky CCW rules) to carry any revolver or a Springfield 1911 concealed. My revolver and main carry gun is an S&W Model 60 .357 with a 3" barrel. I shoot .38 +P, .357, *and* .45 ACP in practice a lot. Overall, I'd say that shooting self-defense loaded .45 ACP out of the full-sized Springfield 1911 that my husband got for Christmas produces slightly less recoil than shooting the Winchester Silvertip .357s I carry for SD when hiking does from the Model 60.
When target shooting, I also shoot tighter groups with the 1911 than I do when shooting .357 with my own Model 60. <wry grin> But I suspect that the smaller revolver with the fairly heavy DA trigger is probably responsible for that.
As best I can tell, for SD the decision between .357 and .45 is a judgment call and can be different for each person. They're both good rounds. You should pick the gun and round that you shoot best.
Quote: "Power: I fail to understand how 600-700 ft.lbs. in a handgun is overkill when 1100+ ft.lbs. in a rifle (5.56 NATO) and 1500+ ft.lbs. in a shotgun (12 gauge) is considered ideal for personal defense."
It would be a bit foolish to use a rifle for self defense in a civilian situation too, in my opinion. The shooter had better have a big checkbook to pay for all the stuff they make a hole through when they shoot somebody with a rifle in a neighborhood. One of the basic rules of gun safety is - "Know what's behind your target." Whatever happened to that on these forums?
It would be a bit foolish to use a rifle for self defense in a civilian situation too, in my opinion. The shooter had better have a big checkbook to pay for all the stuff they make a hole through when they shoot somebody with a rifle in a neighborhood. One of the basic rules of gun safety is - "Know what's behind your target." Whatever happened to that on these forums?
Quote: "In Double Tap's gelatin tests, their 10mm ammo with 165grn and 180grn Speer Gold Dot bullets penetrated .25 and .5" more respectively than .40 S&W loadings with the same bullet."
Then why use 10mm at all if the only justification for the extra flash and recoil is .25" extra penetration?
Then why use 10mm at all if the only justification for the extra flash and recoil is .25" extra penetration?
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