.357 Magnum vs. .45 ACP

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SR's post; .45acp vs .357magnum

I disagree with SR's post.
The .45acp works well because it produces a larger, wider temp wound channel than a .357magnum. A .45acp round/bullet weighs more too.
The .357magnum load has a high KE level and punches deeper & faster than most .45acp rounds but it has muzzle flash/recoil/smaller size.

A 125gr JHP .357magnum works just fine as a duty/protection/CCW round and was in regular use in the USA for many years but in 2010, the .45acp in a semi auto pistol; SIG P220, HK USP, Glock 21/30, 1911a1 etc makes more sense for practical reasons.

Clyde F
 
Temp wound channel,,,,who wants temp. the fact is what difference does it make if the 45acp only penetrates 2" center mass at 25 ft because it is so weak and the 357 busts everything up as it passes thru your body. You have a valid argument if you are comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. Basically there are a lot of factors ballisticly and you are correct in stating that the larger bullet does more damage but that is a duh huh, but if the larger bullet is weak in muzzle energy "not velocity" then the penetration is greatly reduced reguardless of bullet size. Listen, i know bigger is better but if there is nothing pushing the bullet then your effectivness is minimal. For refference i will use my gun, a SRH 454 Casull 7.5". I can fire a 45 Colt thru it with a 260 grain bullet at about 350 ft/lbs muzzle energy. I can fire a 454 Casull 260 grain bullet at 1800 ft/lbs muzzle energy. i ask you, which one does more damage. Same bullet. Of course the 454 would. Size does matter but not if the larger bullet is so much weaker. Just my opinion but ballistics dont lie. Anyone that knows ballistics well will know that a 45acp may be great if you are 15 ft away from your target. Why do you think the 454 Casull and the S&W 460 were invented. Beacuse everyone knew that the 45 calibur was great and ideal but it was so weak in the 45 acp and colt that it was useless for anything other than target practice or very close range. Just my opinion and i am not dissagreeing with the size of bullet only what is pushing it into the target. :)
 
Revolvers can and do jam if dirty (dropped in sand) When I was a LEO in NH I had to completely disassemble another officers M19 to get the sand out so that he could use it. Also the .357 had (I don't know about modern ammo) a huge muzzle flash and blast which makes hitting anything on your second shot iffy at night. If I had to carry a revolver it would be a M25 Smith, my preference was the 1911, now I carry an XD .40, H&K USP compact .40 or when it's hot a Ruger LCP.
 
SR, stats don't lie...

I agree with SuperR's specs and details about the power levels, muzzle vel.
But my point is that the .45acp is better than a .357magnum for practical reasons. If you want to lug a big Desert Eagle or Coonan Arms .357magnum pistol, have at it but I'd carry or use a duty size .45 acp pistol.

Clyde
 
Anyone that knows ballistics well will know that a 45acp may be great if you are 15 ft away from your target.
are we trolling there SR just 10 posts and a statement like that LOL.
I'll assume your not and here to learn not just stir the pot.
lets see if I understand anything about ballistics and since this is a 357 mag vs 45 acp lets use those we'll even use the classic loads 125gr .357 @ 1450 fps and 230gr .45 @870 fps.energy is 583 for the .357 and 386 for the .45 however momentum is 28 for the .45 and only 25 for the .357 now we have to expand bullets this requires energy (yes your beloved kinetic energy) now its pretty easy to understand that more energy is required to make a .357 expand to .700 than a .45 which is why the temp cavity of the 357 is real big right at first because it is dumping energy rapidly (and slowing down) it's also the reason the .45s temp cavity is deeper.
 
I believe that both are formidable rounds...no argument there. I would feel comfortable with either, from a strictly "personal protection" standpoint.

However, I simply prefer the .45ACP semi-auto as I find that I am able to enjoy more consistency, control and speed with this platform. In addition, given the quality of many semi-autos these days, reliability vs the revolver is no longer as much of an issue. Heck, even my 12 year old Sig is every bit as reliable as any revolver I have ever owned.

Regardless, when it comes to these 2 calibers, I feel the caliber by itself has less significance when compared to the delivery method/platform (and ones ability at using one vs the other); given that both are, IMHO, equally devastating.

Now, I could go into the whole "revolver vs semi-auto" thing, but since we are mainly speaking of caliber here, this would be superfluous as I believe either platform has its place, along with various advantages/disadvantages. This really comes down to which one fits a particular need (or needs, as the case may be).

Besides, I love them both. Therefore, I really do not enjoy harping on one or the other.
 
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Anyone that knows ballistics well will know that a 45acp may be great if you are 15 ft away from your target. Why do you think the 454 Casull and the S&W 460 were invented.
Certainly not for personal defense. And that's what this thread is all about. The OP is asking about duty and personal defense weapons; the .45 ACP and .357 mag. were just the particulars.
Beacuse everyone knew that the 45 calibur was great and ideal but it was so weak in the 45 acp and colt that it was useless for anything other than target practice or very close range.
I suggest you read some more after you read the original post of the thread. You certainly have a lot to learn.
 
First of all let me appologize to apparently the few i offended with my posts, i.e mavracer and Stevie-ray. This was never the intent. I was merely stating my opinion which was based on the collective data you can find from the experts although Stevie-Ray is all knowing. I never professed to be an expert and i am not trolling for anything. I was told before you get on an internet forum be cautious. If you make a statement that is not in line with some of the others you will be descended upon like locusts in a biblical plague. How true. Its funny that as i look back at all these posts over 60% would agree with me. Gee i wonder why they weren't descended upon.


I also like the fact that in order for mavracer to uphold his side of the question he decided to compare a 125 grain bullet to a bullet almost twice its size with a 230 grain bullet. This would be apples to oranges and if your going to do that then ok, you win. If you would have read my post thoroughly you would have seen that i believe like you that for the most part bigger is better. I carry a 454 Casull for heavens sake, did that not tell you anything, and i was not insinuating anyone use that hand cannon for a carry weapon. Don't be rediculous. However, lets compare apples too apples. How about you use a corbon 180 grain 357 and compare it to a 185 grain 45 acp. A little bit fairer don't you think.



I will include the following site that i found very interesting. READ IT before you post back as im sure you will telling me yet again how stupid i am, but first please ask for Stevie-Ray's approval since he is the expert here not me. Notice that in the case of the 357 the one shot stop in the 357 was 91% while the 185 grain 45 acp was 96%. The 45 a little better but still comparing the 125 grain to the 185. This because the 180 grain 357 apparently was relatively new and was not used in this test.This has since been introduced by CorBon and i think Federal. However, notice the last line in the 45 acp. It says plainly, and i love this best, they used the 230 grain that mavracer loves so much and it was "poor" to use their words with only 62%. Sorry man but your theory was just blown out of the water dude. They had to get down to the 185 grain faster bullet to compare it and it did do better but up against the 125 grain, duh huh, but even then both were over 90%. I dont think we need to add in the 180 grain 357 to prove the point here which would have placed it above the 45 acp.


The question on this thread was simple, which one, 357 or 45 acp. Both appear to be very effective and i will admit the 45 acp "with a bigger bullet" was a little better than i gave it credit for. No other criteria was stated other than which one to carry which is a personal choice. As far as the guns themselves, if you do a fair apples to apples, give me the 357 mag. Still today by most experts considered the gold standard for personal defense. Although i will say that at least mavracer did list some facts when he replied. Stevie-Ray provided squat except for a condensending reply. Maybe he has a little to learn as well. Again, sorry for any offenses taken i am just voicing my opinion while we still have the right to do so. In any case lets all agree that none of us god forbid ever have to use our weapons for anything other than target, hunting, or pleasure. Oh and i forgot the occasional terrorist. Good luck :)

Here is the link...http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm
 
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158gr HP @ 1400fps (Alliant lists a LSWC load for 1,620fps. YIKES!) is gonna leave a mark. Probly on the wall behind whatever ya hit...:eek:

Having said that, I own & enjoy shooting both. In fact, they're the only calibers I load.;)

Everybody should own a .357 wheelgun and a .45 1911. That's just a fact...:D

When things go bump in the night I would be comfortable with either.
 
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I will include the following site that i found very interesting. READ IT before you post back as im sure you will telling me yet again how stupid i am, but first please ask for Stevie-Ray's approval since he is the expert here not me.
I don't need any permission.and I read Evan Marshal's book years ago that's the #s Hatcher is spitting out.
Notice that in the case of the 357 the one shot stop in the 357 was 91% while the 185 grain 45 acp was 96%. The 45 a little better but still comparing the 125 grain to the 185.
There are two problems I have with Marshal's findings first is he throws out all data where more than one shot was fired (if you had to fire another shot it wasn't a one shot stop now was it) and second his ties with Peter Pi (head of Cor-bon) and his seamed scewing the #s to favor cor-bon loads.
This because the 180 grain 357 apparently was relatively new and was not used in this test.This has since been introduced by CorBon and i think Federal.
Well ya that and the fact that they are hunting loads.They are both hard cast bullets for maximum penatration and no expansion.They wouldn't find favor with Marshal.However Winchester makes a 180gr partition gold that I think would make an interesting SD loading though
However, notice the last line in the 45 acp. It says plainly, and i love this best, they used the 230 grain that mavracer loves so much and it was "poor" to use their words with only 62%. Sorry man but your theory was just blown out of the water dude.
that's FMJ, IE. ball ammo. even 20 years ago, when that data was collected, the better JHP's were all 80-90% IIRC the 230gr hydro-shok was 90%.
now do you have any relevant information from this century?
 
Like I said "SuperRuger," you have a lot to learn. Most of this has been hashed out dozens of times here on this board; you should learn to use the search function. Evan Marshall's work has been bandied about as junk science for years; again, search function. And finding a site on the internet and presenting it to an established forum as gospel because you like what it says? And then acting like a spoiled brat when somebody calls you on several asinine statements? How old are you?:rolleyes:
 
SuperRuger,

I'd like to know from where you get your information about the .45 ACP and it penetrating "only about 2 inches" or being "too weak" to be an adequate SD round. What you seem to be claiming doesn't make sense to me nor does it jibe with my experience.

I suspect you've read and taken to heart information from Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall and Sanow. I've disagreed with Ed Sanow since the late 1970's when he first began publishing his opinions in gun rags. Ultimately, he's unquestionably biased in favor of the lightweight/hi-speed bullet theory.

The .357 Magnum, Remington 125gr JHP @1393 fps penetrates approximately 14.17 inches in ballistic gel for testing. Expansion is very good, opening up from .357" to a measured .708".

The .45 ACP does nearly as well in many cases, depending on the type of projectile and load. For instance:
.45 ACP Federal 230gr HydraShok JHP - 12.9" average
.45 ACP ProLoad 200gr +P Tactical JHP - 13.2" average
.45 ACP Remington 185gr +P G.Saber JHP - 13.9" average
.45 ACP Winchester 185gr Silvertip JHP - 9.6"
.45 ACP Federal 165gr Hydra-Shok PD JHP - 9.5" average

Expansion in these .45 ACP loads averages .67" with the exception of the Winchester Silvertip load which expands to .75"

As far as the guns themselves, if you do a fair apples to apples, give me the 357 mag. Still today by most experts considered the gold standard for personal defense.

In that case, compare the .357 Magnum from a 6-inch revolver versus the .45 ACP also from a 6-inch revolver. Using a S&W 27 vs. a S&W 25 should be "fair" - both are large "N" Frame revolvers, both are six-shooters. Both weigh in at a nominal 44 and 46 oz respectively, with a long barrel.

.357 Magnum - 125gr JHP @ 1450 fps (adv) = 6.01 ft-lbs recoil
.357 Magnum - 158gr JHP @ 1240 fps (adv) = 6.81 ft-lbs recoil
.45 ACP - 230gr JHP @ 830 fps = 6.24 ft-lbs recoil
.45 ACP - 185gr JHP @ 900 fps = 5.03 ft-lbs recoil
.45 ACP +P 185gr JHP @1033 fps = 6.25 ft-lbs recoil

This puts the .45 ACP out ahead with a larger hole, less flash/bang, over 90% of the same penetration, and higher numbers in "relative stopping power".

If we believe the numbers at the website you provided, then the best the .357 Magnum manages on the relative stopping power (RSP or "Hatcher" scale) provided, is 63.88 using a 165gr bullet at 1290 fps. Unfortunately, the .45 ACP 185gr +P at 1000 fps rates 72.2. Even the 230gr LRN .45 round rates a 68.1, making it "better" than the best .357 load.

The problem here is that we seek in vain a mathematical formula to describe the likelihood that a particular round will stop someone with a single hit. But there is no accurate way to mathematically model the person's determination to survive, the effects of drugs/adrenaline on his system or even to factor in his body-mass-index (fat ratio). All of these may play a part in determining whether he is stopped or continues to pose a threat.
 
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Quote: "Even the 230gr LRN .45 round rates a 68.1, making it "better" than the best .357 load."

Which is absolute crap.
 
And with that last erudite, concise, evocative statement, this circular donkey trot is, before someone loses their temper and says some things that get them banned...

All together now...

closed.
 
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