Wow four posts in a row this must mean a lot to you doesn't it? I suggest you expand your horizons and appreciate what other cartridges are capable of and not get so emotionally invested in the 10mm. You need to accept that the 357 can match the 10mm's performance in a handgun and exceed it in a rifle.
10mm or 357 mag?
- Thread starter David spargenator
- Start date
Sharpsdressed Man
Moderator
Trauma surgeons often lie to put forward their AMA agenda against guns. I think we can safely leave them out of the equation.
The problem that the 10MM could not overcome in order to become a viable law enforcement round is that it is too powerful than necessary. Velocity above necessary to law enforcement is diminishing returns. Civilian use casts a darker pall over 10MM self-defense use. Cops can justify shooting through barriers. Civilians would have a difficult time justifying shooting into a barrier.
For law enforcement application, .40 caliber guns are optimum with 180 grain bullets at 1000 FPS. Any more velocity provides no gain in efficacy.
For law enforcement application, .40 caliber guns are optimum with 180 grain bullets at 1000 FPS. Any more velocity provides no gain in efficacy.
Deaf Smith
New member
Sort of like the .41 magnum. Touted as a great law enforcement round along with the S&W 58. But full house .41s were a might to much.
In fact many a cop found the .357 Magnum, in light weight K frame model 19, was a bit to much to.
Deaf
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Sharpsdressed Man
Moderator
Yes, way too much power.
Unless you have to shoot into or through a car, or through a heavier barricade than the day before. I never understood how ANYONE could set such an arbitrary standard for a police weapon. Who really KNOWS just how much is too much? I am apparently not arrogant enough to claim such wisdon. Don't buy into the pseudo experts on that one. Be your own judge.
Unless you have to shoot into or through a car, or through a heavier barricade than the day before. I never understood how ANYONE could set such an arbitrary standard for a police weapon. Who really KNOWS just how much is too much? I am apparently not arrogant enough to claim such wisdon. Don't buy into the pseudo experts on that one. Be your own judge.
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If you make more reasonable claims and statements, and/or qualify them properly, then it would not be possible to accurately refute them with an argument of extremes. Because your claim was sweeping and unqualified, an argument of extremes was more than adequate to accurately refute it.
If you can prove that a bullet can destroy the CNS or cause loss of blood without velocity then you can prove your claim. Such an attempt would, no doubt, be entertaining, but futile.
The implication that a bullet can accomplish tissue damage without velocity is so far removed from reality as to be ludicrous.
It MIGHT be true that pushing the velocity/weight combination higher than that found in the .40 caliber produces efficacy gains that are not worth the penalties imposed by the higher momentum. However, the idea that more velocity provides no more efficacy in terms of terminal performance can not be proven because it is false.
For what it's worth, I agree that the evidence strongly suggests that, in the general performance class that encompasses both the .40S&W and the 10mm, terminal performance is more similar than different. However, that is not at all the same as saying that "more velocity provides no gain in efficacy" and it is certainly not at all the same as saying that "velocity does not affect lethality".
It's cool Sansouci I didn't mean to come off like a smartalic. If I did I apologize, these 10mm vs 357 threads can get quite heated and they ultimately go nowhere. It's very similar to the 45-70 vs 500 S&W debate in which the 45-70 is clearly superior in every possible way yet some people refuse to accept it.
Actually since full power 10mm was never concidered by the FBI and the 10mm was adopted by the FBI in it's 10mm light loading I would argue that ultimatly it was purely a matter of the length of the case that made the 10mm and had zero to do with it's power.
As John said it most certainly can and will cause cause more damage given proper bullet design, the problem is the added recoil is to much for the average person to handle of course the same is true for full house 357s.
Redhawk500
Inactive
Two guns?
I have hunted with only a semiauto pistol in .45 ACP for deer, but will more than likely use a 10mm Glock 20 or Kimber 10mm Stainless Target Model II in the future. I typically hunt with an N Frame S&W 6 inch revolver in some 40+ caliber. I wouldn't be unhappy with a S&W 610 revolver or a Model 27 if I had them. The wide variety of bullets that can be used in a revolver, since there are relatively few feeding issues except for rapid reloads using full moon clips or speed loaders, is definitely an advantage. The wide variety of velocities available in a revolver is also an advantage if a new shooter is developing their skill set or using their revolver for small game hunting. For small game hunting, I still put the .22 LR semi auto at the top of the list. I carry a self defense firearm as my first priority. A sport firearm does not require high capacity but may have an accuracy and power requirement beyond a self defense firearm. I carry a heavy revolver in a shoulder holster and a self defense firearm on my belt. A lightweight Glock 20 in 10mmauto or Glock 35 40 S&W both can perform both roles. A semiauto .22 LR pistol would not be my choice as a self defense firearm so it doesn't go hunting with me by its self. Get a six inch .357 Mag for the sight radius and the trigger and a 10mm auto for the capacity and rapid reload. Neither does everything as well as the other does some things. I have noticed the 357 Magnum factory ammo is not nearly as fast as advertised 30 years ago. Of course, I didn't have my own chronograph back then and the end of the box was all I had to go by.
I have hunted with only a semiauto pistol in .45 ACP for deer, but will more than likely use a 10mm Glock 20 or Kimber 10mm Stainless Target Model II in the future. I typically hunt with an N Frame S&W 6 inch revolver in some 40+ caliber. I wouldn't be unhappy with a S&W 610 revolver or a Model 27 if I had them. The wide variety of bullets that can be used in a revolver, since there are relatively few feeding issues except for rapid reloads using full moon clips or speed loaders, is definitely an advantage. The wide variety of velocities available in a revolver is also an advantage if a new shooter is developing their skill set or using their revolver for small game hunting. For small game hunting, I still put the .22 LR semi auto at the top of the list. I carry a self defense firearm as my first priority. A sport firearm does not require high capacity but may have an accuracy and power requirement beyond a self defense firearm. I carry a heavy revolver in a shoulder holster and a self defense firearm on my belt. A lightweight Glock 20 in 10mmauto or Glock 35 40 S&W both can perform both roles. A semiauto .22 LR pistol would not be my choice as a self defense firearm so it doesn't go hunting with me by its self. Get a six inch .357 Mag for the sight radius and the trigger and a 10mm auto for the capacity and rapid reload. Neither does everything as well as the other does some things. I have noticed the 357 Magnum factory ammo is not nearly as fast as advertised 30 years ago. Of course, I didn't have my own chronograph back then and the end of the box was all I had to go by.
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Ahh yes... The combat Dentist.
The two trauma surgeons that I know with gun shot experience talk about the lack of damage that low velocity rounds cause. High velocity rounds such as 357 magnum and +P 9mm are much more difficult to repair.
Gang bangers frequently brag about how many times they have been shot.
"gb_in_ga, did you see the previous discussion of 10mm revolvers? "
Yes, of course I did. The subject has come up fairly often over the years. First, they aren't all that common. Second, the ones that do exist only exist as large, heavy frame revolvers. Third, I really, really, really don't like using moon clips.
None of those issues exist for the .357 Mags.
Ok, I'll give that the reason why they aren't all that common is that they aren't all that popular, and that part of the reason why they aren't all that popular is that they aren't all that common. Yeah, that's self referential. Recursive. But I still like having the options of having the round available in small and medium frame revolvers as well as large. And I still don't like moon clips. Oh, and because 10mm revolvers aren't at all common, neither are their moon clips -- which are required for use. Yeah, you can probably order them -- for now at least. Who knows what the future might bring?
Yes, of course I did. The subject has come up fairly often over the years. First, they aren't all that common. Second, the ones that do exist only exist as large, heavy frame revolvers. Third, I really, really, really don't like using moon clips.
None of those issues exist for the .357 Mags.
Ok, I'll give that the reason why they aren't all that common is that they aren't all that popular, and that part of the reason why they aren't all that popular is that they aren't all that common. Yeah, that's self referential. Recursive. But I still like having the options of having the round available in small and medium frame revolvers as well as large. And I still don't like moon clips. Oh, and because 10mm revolvers aren't at all common, neither are their moon clips -- which are required for use. Yeah, you can probably order them -- for now at least. Who knows what the future might bring?
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Stevie-Ray
New member
Oh, come on.
And Alzheimer's disease didn't kill my father, either. It was cardiac arrest, due to pneumonia, attributable to renal failure, as a consequence of Alzheimer's disease.
here is where you turned left
When manufacturing civilian defense ammunition I had zero interest in "death"; I manufactured ammunition designed to cause immediate cessation of behavior.
"Death" has absolutely nothing to do with defense ammo.
"Velocity" has certainly something to do with behavior cessation.
Goliath vs rock?
When manufacturing civilian defense ammunition I had zero interest in "death"; I manufactured ammunition designed to cause immediate cessation of behavior.
"Death" has absolutely nothing to do with defense ammo.
"Velocity" has certainly something to do with behavior cessation.
Goliath vs rock?