10mm or 357 mag?
- Thread starter David spargenator
- Start date
Cosmodragoon
New member
What would say about your namesake's graduation to .454 and .460?
Actually John the 357 Magnum had a reputation as a manstopper before most cops were even using hollowpoints. I worked with guys using 158 LSWC's when I first got out of the Army in 1982. The 125 was a latecomer to the game, by then the 9mm was taking hold and the Illinois State Police were doing phenomenal things with the 9mm.
The 125 grain 357 Magnum does not meet the FBI standards, yet as we know on the street it was legendary for being a fight stopper. Kind of makes you wonder about the FBI standards doesn't it.
Nanuk,
The most oft-repeated urban legend is .357 Mag as ultimate man stopper. It is not, never was, & never will be. It's a good self-defense cartridge among many, some of which are superior, none of which are man stoppers.
Do you really think that any law enforcement agency would use an inferior duty weapon were a superior one available?
The 10MM guys love to cite the other oft-repeated urban legend that the FBI dropped it in favor of the .40 S&W because female agents couldn't cope with its recoil. To believe that you'd have to believe that the FBI would intentionally place its cops in danger. That is ludicrous on its face. Here's a fact: cops have to qualify with their issued weapons. If they cannot, they're no longer employed.
In the late 90's, it cost law enforcement agencies a half-mil to put a single cop in service. Do you think that any law enforcement agency would not only intentionally jeopardy it cops' lives but also recklessly squander its investments?
The term "man stopper" is indicative of neophyte.
The most oft-repeated urban legend is .357 Mag as ultimate man stopper. It is not, never was, & never will be. It's a good self-defense cartridge among many, some of which are superior, none of which are man stoppers.
Do you really think that any law enforcement agency would use an inferior duty weapon were a superior one available?
The 10MM guys love to cite the other oft-repeated urban legend that the FBI dropped it in favor of the .40 S&W because female agents couldn't cope with its recoil. To believe that you'd have to believe that the FBI would intentionally place its cops in danger. That is ludicrous on its face. Here's a fact: cops have to qualify with their issued weapons. If they cannot, they're no longer employed.
In the late 90's, it cost law enforcement agencies a half-mil to put a single cop in service. Do you think that any law enforcement agency would not only intentionally jeopardy it cops' lives but also recklessly squander its investments?
The term "man stopper" is indicative of neophyte.
Many of the 125gr 357 loads pass just fine, they don't even show them in test because the 357 service revolver isn't used anymore.
I sometimes wonder how this even got started since the FBI never even tested full power 10mm. They tested and adopted the 10mm with a 180gr bullet at ~1000 fps.
mavracer,
.40 caliber is at its self-defense optimum with 180 grain bullets at 1000 FPS. Any additional velocity is diminishing returns.
The .357 Mag is in the same ballpark. For self-defense, the 158 grain bullet is optimum at a velocity of around 1000 FPS. And the .357 Mag is infamous for muzzle flash. Muzzle flash is a very bad thing, especially at night.
The FBI did in fact test higher velocity 10MM loads. They did not offer anything above a .40 S&W.
.40 caliber is at its self-defense optimum with 180 grain bullets at 1000 FPS. Any additional velocity is diminishing returns.
The .357 Mag is in the same ballpark. For self-defense, the 158 grain bullet is optimum at a velocity of around 1000 FPS. And the .357 Mag is infamous for muzzle flash. Muzzle flash is a very bad thing, especially at night.
The FBI did in fact test higher velocity 10MM loads. They did not offer anything above a .40 S&W.
NO THEY DIDN'T
Here are the FBI's notes on 10mm testing
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
Also I believe in HWFE he goes on to say that the reason for limiting power is that the average shooter can not master the recoil of full house 10mm and 357.
One could make the argument that some of the factors mentioned might make the weapon inferior, however the higher cost certainly does not. And cost is definitely a consideration in choosing an issue weapon.
However, your quote was specifically responding to a comment about the .357Magnum caliber and its reputation as a stopper.
The context of your comment was about terminal performance and my response was in that same context and spirit. That is, I was responding to your comment that a PD would never issue a weapon that was considered to be an inferior man stopper if a superior one were available.
Clearly there are many other factors that a PD considers beyond just terminal performance and that was the point my response made.
It's somewhat disengenuous for you to treat my response as if the initial context were something other than what it was.
There are still some LE agencies that do. In fact, here's one PD that changed over to the Glock 20 just a few years ago.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...603-20100611_1_weapons-glock-handgun-officers
But the 10mm has never been a common issue caliber.
Patrick Urey, the agent in charges of the FBI's firearms testing at the time of the 10mm adoption, notes are linked in my post, hence the reason I posted the link. In it he states clearly that the only 10mm load tested for adoption for the FBI is the 180gr FBI lite load at 980fps. stating that other ammo was tested would be foolish.
S&W-Keeper
New member
I have 47 .357's, and 0 10mm. I am going to have to buy me a 10 one day.