The FBI didn't switch because 9mm was better.
It's clearly way inferior in terms of power.
True.
The FBI switched to 9mm from the .40S&W because:
(a) it's way easier to get non-shooter agents qualified on a 9mm pistol than a .40 pistol (remember, 90%+ of FBI agents are some version of degreed professional, most without a military background or even other minimal firearms training - i.e., J.D.s/lawyers; C.P.A.s/accountants; Masters or PhDs in psychology; B.S. science-types serving as anaylsts in hair/fiber & crime-scene forensics, et al);
and (b), the FBI/FTU folks bought into what for lack of a better description I'll call the 'Wiley Clapp Theory of Improved Projectile Science', after an article he published in the very early 2000s in Guns & Ammo magazine.
Basically Wiley argued that improvements in modern bullet technology, in terms of advances in both HP design and in the materials from which projectile are constructed, have made the 9mm, ballistically, a waaay better 'man-stopper' today than what it was in past decades, especially in L.E. use, where it first garnered a poor reputation in the '70s and '80s.
Wiley further argued that while 'a rising tide does indeed lift all boats,' i.e., we can expect to see all the 'service cartridges' reap some 'stopping-power' benefits from using better bullets, the 9mm will see the most dramatic improvement in 'street lethality' over its rather poor historic performance.
So as to (b) above, the FTU staff basically took a look at Wiley's theory, checked the recent ballistics literature and studies, and said:
'We agree with the experts. The 9mm's good enough for our people. Plus, there's still reason (a), which means we'll have less remedial training and re-quals to do each year with all these non-shooter guys & gals they keep hiring who struggle to qualify with a .40'
Always has been, ... and despite the argument the '9mm's-running-better-bullets-today,' I'll still stick with my 10mm pistol. It'll be loaded hot with similar 'better bullets,' ... or even an excellent Old School projectile like Hornady's great penetrator, the XTP-HP.
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
It's even worse for "good" 10mm loads.
Underwood loads Speer "uni-cor." That is the round before version one of Gold Dot. Otherwise, they would call it Gold Dot. G2 is actually version 3 of Gold Dot.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785724923961
Originally posted by Speer
Using our exclusive Uni-Cor® method, we bond the jacket to the core one molecule at a time at the very beginning of the bullet construction process.
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Double Tap doesn't load Gold Dots anymore..."Bonded Defense." Isn't a Speer name...
originally posted by wild cat mccane
Agreed. Buffalo Bore hollow points are junk. That company is pretty shady. No one should buy their crap and expect premium stuff. But I take issue with your Obama comment. They actually did it 2007. When their 380 gold dot became very popular they ran out of gold dots and started loading it with Seirra crap. I still have a box of that crap when they made the switch and didn't tell anyone and had Gold Dots in the picture of the rounds.
Originally posted by Buffalo Bore
PLEASE NOTE: Actual projectile may sometimes differ from photograph
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
I don't care if someone is being a jerk.
I've asked for comparison mediums and had the same bullet shot into it from 9mm, 40, and 10mm that proves 10mm lives up to the hype.
Silence.
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Speer "Uni-cor" is not Gold Dot.
Someone using the Google Wayback Machine can go check out 4 years ago when they listed it as its own bullet on the Speer website.
If it's a Gold Dot, it will be listed as a Gold Dot. Why wouldn't it be?
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
When Speer made the Gold Dot 10mm, low FPS. They might know something.
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
All you wanted to know about Speer Uni-Cor not being Gold Dot:
http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showth...low-Point-quot
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
See. We are getting deeper and deeper into the myth of 10mm. It isn't panning out for it being a better hollow point. Simply nothing supports it is magically or significantly different than even 9mm.
Originally posted by wild cat mccane
If FPS were everything, we'd see the return of Federal 115gr +P+. Simply isn't needed with the changes from HydroShok to HST and Gold Dot.
It’s overkill for sd purposes.
Hardly.
Pistols and the calibers they shoot are sub-optimal for SD work. A pistol exists because it is easier to handle and conceal than a shotgun or rifle, not because it is more effective.
The only reason it is not more popular is due to the recoil, which is too much for most girls and girly-men. Same for the .45ACP and .40S&W.
The FBI never said that 9mm was better than .40 or .45 or any other caliber, they merely made the change because they said that modern ammo made it preform at their levels of acceptability, namely the 12 to 18 inch penetration test and reliable hollow point expansion, not too mention that their agents shot better with it and FMJ practice ammo costs less.The FBI didn't switch because 9mm was better. It's clearly way inferior in terms of power.
If I'm correct in this assumption, the old Speer Uni-Cor bullets are still being made, but they're sold as simply "Jacketed HP" bullets and are designated as "Plinker" rounds, whereas Gold Dots are labeled as Gold Dots and are designated for self defense.Sorry, an 11-year-old thread from another forum full of links that don't work anymore isn't really all that informative. How about something from Speer's own literature referencing Uni-Cor as anything other than a manufacturing process. Based on what I've seen thus far, I'm going with these "old uni-cor bullets" as being either something that has long since been discontinued, or a mistaken name for something else. I simply cannot swallow that Underwood and Double Tap are using some mysterious low-quality bullet that there are no references to in the manufacturer's literature when Gold Dots are in high demand and readily available.
The Wild Feline doesn't care about nor is making his argument based on what 9mm does in brands other than HST. His theory is the less mass and velocity that equals the highest expansion and penetration is automatically the better bullet.Again, look at the Lucky Gunner tests you referenced. For the sake of brevity I'll only mention the two most "modern" 10mm loadings. The 10mm Gold Dot penetrated 8% deeper and expanded 25% larger than the best 9mm Gold Dot. The 10mm Critical Duty penetrated 13% and 7% deeper and expanded 19% and 30% larger than the 9mm Critical Duty +P and standard pressure respectively. If that isn't significantly different, I don't know what is.
From Speer's 2020 catalog, this is the image they have for their "Jacketed Hollow Point" bullet that has "Uni-Cor technology"From Speer. The maker of both. Two totally different bullets. One marketed as cheap. One as premium.
Additionally, the external skiving (those cuts you see on the copper on the tip of the bullet) didn't make Gold Dot. So there are Uni-Cor bullets with and without external skiving that are not Gold Dot. Underwood defenders have previously said look at Underwood ammo, clearly Gold Dot. No. Uni-Cor also comes with skiving. It's not Gold Dot. Followup, what premium reloading company (Underwood) would pay more for a better model components (Gold Dot) and advertises it as the economy model (Uni-Cor) while selling a "premium" product? Either Underwood isn't smart while loading Gold Dots or they are loading Uni-Cor. It's Uni-Cor.
Clearly, they don't.Underwood loads the cheapest hollow point Speer makes.
Clearly, you don't.Honestly, not trying to be a jerk. I just know this information
Originally posted by TruthTellers
If I'm correct in this assumption, the old Speer Uni-Cor bullets are still being made, but they're sold as simply "Jacketed HP" bullets and are designated as "Plinker" rounds, whereas Gold Dots are labeled as Gold Dots and are designated for self defense.
Originally posted by TruthTellers
I can't tell you which bullet Underwood or Doubletap or Buffalo Bore are using, but just because they don't call them Gold Dots doesn't mean it's safe to assume that they're using their "Plinker/Jacketed HP" bullets. It could very well be that they don't or legally can't use the term Gold Dot in their advertising.
In this instance it would be best to contact them and ask directly and not rely on conjecture or decade old internet posts to conclude what components ammo companies are using.
Originally posted by TruthTellers
From Speer's 2020 catalog, this is the image they have for their "Jacketed Hollow Point" bullet that has "Uni-Cor technology"...
Also from Speer's 2020 catalog, but this is their image for Gold Dot bullets:...
This is a screenshot of the picture for Underwood's 165gr 10mm ammo:
To the points made in (a), that also describes most people. Most people don’t have a military background or extensive experience with firearms. That’s not just an FBI thing, it’s a people thing.
Yes, but 'most people' aren't employed in active law enforcement in which qualifying with and carrying a handgun is a mandatory job requirement.
A higher probability exists that an officer or agent will actually have to use his weapon when engaged in an enforcement action - significantly higher on a day-to-day basis, in fact, than legally armed CCW folks who work non-L.E. jobs.
Hence, the more important factor in the Bureau's decision to switch from .40 to 9mm is (a) above.
(B) can be viewed as a policy or 'public relations' justification, making the decision appear supported by the current weight of 'expert' ballistic opinion.