10mm for self defense

[JohnKSa]

Again I say, the legal implications would take a backseat to survival in a life or death situation such as suddenly getting caught up in mob violence.

One of the biggest issues I have with "self defense" against mobs is the highlighted portion of your post.

So, the way someone would get "suddenly caught up in mob violence" would be to have a large violent mob sneak up on them while they were, say, unwittingly in a prime protest area during a time of widespread unrest and distracted due to reading a book on nonviolent conflict resolution?

A person worried enough about safety in mobs to carry 2 pistols, all the mags they have, and two knives all while wearing body armor could make their life a lot easier by just staying away from mobs and the predictable areas where they form.

For example, the guy who was arrested for pointing his AR-15 at a crowd didn't even live at the scene! He had taken his gun and INTENTIONALLY gone to find the protests.

I'm not saying it's totally impossible that one might get messed up in a situation that spiraled out of control in a way that prevented them from getting away. The problem is that while nationwide coverage is on just about all the time and it's well known that the protests are tending to center around the downtown of large urban areas and that they tend to get violent as night approaches, it's hard to argue that: "Ooops! How did that happen? Here I am with my body armor, and my AR-15 in the middle of a protest in a large urban area and I can't get away. Now (as opposed to when I voluntarily came down here armed to the teeth) I'm suddenly so afraid for my life that I have to start shooting into the crowd to make my escape."

If you're going to talk about a scenario, it needs to start with a plausible method for ending up in the scenario. Someone who kits up and goes down to "see them there protests in person" is not going to be treated the same as a person who lives in the middle of a protest area and is trying to escape after, say, the apartment building where he was living was set on fire. Even that's not especially plausible as the "protests" are nearly exclusively focused on government buildings and businesses.

But yes, a person forced to flee from their residence who can't do so without using deadly force is going to get a very different view of the justice system than the person who drives into one, dismounts all kitted up, and then starts shooting when things predictably get ugly. I'm not saying that a person fleeing their residence in the face of a mob is going to have an easy time of justifying shooting into a crowd having publicly admitted in advance to intentionally picking a caliber that will penetrate through the target into someone behind them (as was mentioned above)--or even shooting into a crowd in general, but they at least have a chance.

People who want to go armed to potential mob situations need to apply for an LE job in a large city and bide their time.

The rest of us who are concerned about the danger from mobs just need to follow The Rules of Stupid: "Don't go stupid places at stupid times with stupid people to do stupid things." Unlike regular criminals who are highly mobile and low visibility, mobs are not very mobile, they inevitably form in certain predictable areas, they are very visible and tend to garner huge amounts of media coverage.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

As far as the mob discussion, avoiding mobs is good advice. Staying away from trouble is Concealed Carry 101. When you choose to carry the power of a firearm, you choose to accept the responsibility of a firearm. You also have to mind the law, however stupid or misguided it may be in a given jurisdiction.

The issue of stumbling into mob violence is rare but real. For instance, you may be carrying like you always do as part of your normal EDC. You may be going about your normal business. Whether walking on the sidewalk or stuck in a traffic jam, it could happen. The same rules apply. Try to avoid it. Try getting to safety. Draw your gun only if you are facing significant and inescapable danger.

Understand both the value and limitations of what you are carrying. Mob situations tend to be chaotic but lessons from multiple attacker scenarios can apply. As with any day, it's worth being right with the Lord and your loved ones. You never know when your time will be up, whether it be from an angry mob or an angry blood clot.

 

[agtman]

Unexpectedly 'caught up in mob violence' never happens?

Reginald Denny, anyone?

Half a brain left for his troubles. Just doing his job at the (wrong) time: driving a truck.

 

[JohnKSa]

Not saying it never happens. In fact, I made it clear that it can twice in my last post.

That said, how in the world is Reginald Denny a good example for someone "unexpectedly" caught up in mob violence? Go back and watch the footage and you'll see the smoke from all the fires in the area rising into the sky and clearly visible from long distances. Obviously, I don't think he meant to get beaten up, but the idea that he just suddenly found himself the middle of the biggest riots in a couple of decades without having made conscious (and very questionable) decisions all along the way to end up where he was just doesn't fly.

I don't doubt he has only half a brain now. I would question the implication that the deficit was the result of the beating as opposed to the reason for it.

Can it happen? YES. Is it likely? Not at all.

Don't be like Reginald Denny. Don't be like the guy who was arrested earlier this month for pointing his firearm at a crowd. Stay away from crazy stuff like that--don't fall into the trap of thinking that you'll be able to magically extricate yourself from some sort of mob-violence-debacle just because you have a pistol on your person.

 

[TruthTellers]

Stay away from crazy stuff like that--don't fall into the trap of thinking that you'll be able to magically extricate yourself from some sort of mob-violence-debacle just because you have a pistol on your person.

I don't mean to sound like a nut, but the way things had been going with these "protests" some people may not have been able to stay away from that "crazy stuff."

The week after George Floyd was killed, I noticed businesses on Main St. where I live were boarding up their windows and it is was kind of a shock because while I live in a city, it's not a big city, and it's maybe a 5 minute walk from my house to these businesses.

Seeing how liquor stores were getting looted and one being a couple blocks away, I got concerned that these "protests" were going to get dangerously close to me, enough that I was thinking if I saw someone with a molotov getting ready to throw it in my direction, I was going to open up on them.

Sorry, I've worked too long and hard for the things I own to let someone take it from me like that.

That's the last thing I ever want to do, but when you're put in positions you didn't ask for it's either fight or flight and I'm not willing to flee and lose everything. As such, you can't say that some people won't find themselves in such situations and in some of those situations people won't be able to flee.

Now, in that circumstance I'd be using a rifle, so a 10mm being used in a mob attack... hey, just the sight of a gun and being shot at is enough to make people scatter. I don't think it makes for any better of a choice than a .22 would.

 

[JohnKSa]

Interesting article.

Accounts do indicate that Mr. Baca was being attacked when he fired, but he has been arrested and charged, nevertheless.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

I've seen a video of the encounter and one of the persons rushing over to Baca immediately prior to the shooting seems to mention that Baca has a gun. Obviously it didn't provide any deterrent value and he felt he had to fire the gun. Even after the shooting, at least one person stayed in relatively close proximity to Baca.

If you don't have to go to a potential riot area, stay away. If you can't get away and have to shoot, there's a good chance you're going to be in hot water--and there's even a chance (maybe a good one) that you may still be hurt even after trying to defend yourself.

If you live in a potential riot area, I guess you'll have to balance the risk to life and limb and potential risk of prosecution against the value of the property you want to defend. Keep in mind that there's nothing that says you'll be successful just because you decide to stay and take a stand. In fact, you could fail to defend the property and also be charged with a crime for acts committed during the unsuccessful attempt.

 

[jimku]

I believe a 10mm is closer to a .41 magnum than to a 357. Fine if you want to punch through the bad guy and the three innocent people behind him.

 

[JohnKSa]

10mm and .357Mag are pretty much the same in performance. .357Mag can edge the 10mm for kinetic energy on the light bullet end of the spectrum and 10mm has a small advantage in momentum (power factor) on the heavy bullet end of the spectrum, but otherwise they pretty much overlap each other for performance.

The 10mm/41Mag thing got started years ago because Winchester loaded their STHP round in both 10mm and .41Mag. The 10mm STHP was loaded close to the top end of 10mm performance while the .41Mag STHP was loaded very lightly. The 10mm STHP was actually a little hotter than the .41Mag loading STHP.

I remember one gun writer gushing about how the 10mm actually beat the .41Mag. Well, it did in that one specific loading. Otherwise the comparison didn't even make sense.

Comparing top end loadings for all three rounds put the .357Mag and the 10mm neck-and-neck and the .41Mag in a completely different performance class.

 

[agtman]

Randomly trolling for no good reason, jimku uttered:

I believe a 10mm is closer to a .41 magnum than to a 357. Fine if you want to punch through the bad guy and the three innocent people behind him

Please provide valid references documenting any case where a 10mm round fired in legal self-defense has ever "punch[ed] through the bad guy and [hit] three innocent people behind him."

Please cite to police reports and court cases, if they exist.

 

[jimku]

Please provide valid references documenting any case where a 10mm round fired in legal self-defense has ever "punch[ed] through the bad guy and [hit] three innocent people behind him."

Please cite to police reports and court cases, if they exist.

Go looking for how many carry a 10mm in Alaska for protection from grizzly bears. That ought to suffice, just common sense. Never mind that they are in my opinion just asking to be bear lunch. Just google for "Best grizzly protection guns' or search for that on Yoube. The primary requirement for a good bear round is ... PENETRATION ... as in OVER-penetration against a two-legged threat.

 

[TruthTellers]

Go looking for how many carry a 10mm in Alaska for protection from grizzly bears. That ought to suffice, just common sense. Never mind that they are in my opinion just asking to be bear lunch. Just google for "Best grizzly protection guns' or search for that on Yoube. The primary requirement for a good bear round is ... PENETRATION ... as in OVER-penetration against a two-legged threat.

Those people in Alaska carrying hollow points for bear or solid bullets? Most people who know what they're doing use hollow points for carrying for self defense against people and most 10mm JHP comes in at 12 to 18 inches in gel penetration tests.

 

[COSteve]

Go looking for how many carry a 10mm in Alaska for protection from grizzly bears. That ought to suffice, just common sense. Never mind that they are in my opinion just asking to be bear lunch. Just google for "Best grizzly protection guns' or search for that on Yoube. The primary requirement for a good bear round is ... PENETRATION ... as in OVER-penetration against a two-legged threat.

Anyone carrying a pistol, any pistol, for bear defense in Alaska has a death wish. My younger sister and her husband were wildlife photographers in Alaska for 30 years and the 'Bear Defense' gun of choice for everyone they knew was a 45-70.

 

[stagpanther]

Good grief...this one again.

All I can add is the wisdom of uncle Clint: "There's a lawyer riding every bullet you shoot."

 

[Forte S+W]

Guys, Bears aren't mythical creatures who are all but impervious to physical damage, nor are they walking tanks.

Bears have been killed by .22 Short rifles and .380 ACP Pocket Pistols, before that they were often killed with black powder rifles and pistols which fall far short of modern smokeless powder Magnum cartridges in terms of energy or penetration, and before that they were killed with arrows, okay?

And no, their size nor their coloration do not make them anymore bullet resistant.

Is a Rifle more effective for dropping a Bear than a pistol? Absolutely.
Does that mean that all pistols are completely ineffective against Bears? Absolutely NOT.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that anyone who goes into Bear Country should carry a Pocket Pistol for Bear Defense. In fact, I'm an advocate for carrying the most powerful firearm you can possibly manage to carry and deploy quickly. Personally, my choice for Bear Defense would be my Mossberg 590 Shockwave loaded with 12 Gauge Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, but for most folks, that would be too heavy to carry with other gear and likely to slow to deploy for comfort, ergo they opt for Magnum Revolvers or Pistols, which is plenty adequate.

It may not be the most powerful cartridge and some folks who carry it for Bear Defense have unrealistic expectations of how effective it can be or otherwise how effectively they can use it, (it doesn't matter how many rounds it holds, bears run extremely fast and can clear long distance gaps faster than most folks can get off 2 shots, much less 5+, so recoil recovery won't increase your rate of fire) but a full-power 10mm Auto hardcast bullet absolutely will punch straight through Grizzly/Polar Bear bones.

Honestly, it's 2020 now, guys... So how is it that so many folks seen to think that Bears are some some sort of Mythical Creatures like a Wendigo or a Werewolf. You don't need special incendiary or silver bullets to down one, nor do you need overwhelmingly powerful bullets to break their bontanium skeleton. Haven't enough bears been slain with all manner of cartridges by now that we can safely conclude that they aren't nearly as durable as folks seem to think? Or was every single instance in which one was successfully stopped with less than a .300 Winchester Magnum Rifle just a fluke or a possible miracle of David & Goliath proportions?

 

[jimku]

Anyone carrying a pistol, any pistol, for bear defense in Alaska has a death wish. My younger sister and her husband were wildlife photographers in Alaska for 30 years and the 'Bear Defense' gun of choice for everyone they knew was a 45-70.

I agree totally. Whenever I see some dude going on about his 10mm for bear I immediately click the video off. I never go deep into big bear country, but I do ride a motorcycle through mountains where a bear encounter on the road is possible, and when doing that a .41 magnum is on my hip. Maybe I can use it to blow my brains out to avoid the pain the bear would inflict.

And there is a BIG difference between hunting a bear and just killing it, like with a bow and arrow, and stopping one that is thoroughly ticked off and charging you from 40 feet away. That bear can cover that distance in about a second, and though you might kill it with a 380, he can eviscerate you before he dies.

I once shot a big black bear with a 357 magnum. I was standing in a logging road. My buddies were higher up on the mountain. I hear shots then yelling. Then here came a big black bear they had wounded running full tilt right at me. I let him have it with my 357. It didn’t even slow him down. He barreled right past me and finally piled up another 50 yards or so down the mountain. We found that my 357 had gone in his right chest, passed clear through him diagonally and exited his left rump. If he had been intent on ripping me to shreds I would be dead. I barely had time for that one shot and it was a lucky one.

 

[44caliberkid]

Between the 10mm haters and the Taurus haters, it's a good thing Taurus doesn't make a 10mm.

 

[jimku]

Between the 10mm haters and the Taurus haters, it's a good thing Taurus doesn't make a 10mm.

It's not the 10mm I don't like. What I have no use for is people who promote using a pop-gun to stop a ticked off grizzly bear and using an over-penetrating cannon to stop bad people. I think the 10mm would be excellent for hunting hogs and even deer at reasonable ranges.

 

[44caliberkid]

I was just making a joke about the entire thread and the Taurus Haters thread in Revolvers.

 

[Forte S+W]

Between the 10mm haters and the Taurus haters, it's a good thing Taurus doesn't make a 10mm.

I'm honestly surprised that they haven't at least offered the PT1911 or one of their Revolvers in 10mm Auto by now, it seems like an obvious step to take.

Oh well, it could never dethrone the Taurus Judge as the undisputed heavyweight champion of rage-inducing firearms that cause even otherwise calm/collected experts to begin ranting incoherently at the mere mention of it, cursing the souls of anyone who has ever purchased one as if they had committed some sort of atrocity against all of mankind.

Come to think of it, the Taurus Raging Judge would make one heck of wilderness defense firearm. Seriously, you've got .410 for Snakes, .45 Long Colt for larger predatory animals like Cougars, and .454 Cassul for Grizzly Bears.

 

[jimku]

I'm honestly surprised that they haven't at least offered the PT1911 or one of their Revolvers in 10mm Auto by now, it seems like an obvious step to take.

They kinda/sorta did, and I have one. A Taurus Tracker in .41 magnum. They no longer offer the Tracker in that caliber (my favorite caliber of all time). Mine is a wonderful gun, flawless in every way, my hands-down favorite handgun.