You come out of a WalMart and .........

[eltorrente]

The guy was shooting at another man who was on a motorcycle. He was shooting to kill, not shooting for the sign.

Oh really?

He was shooting toward the far eastern (entrance), where I noticed a motorcycle leaving rather fast, but I'm not sure that's what he was shooting at,” Wise added.

Sounds like the motorcycle guy was scared and left the area like everyone else. If he actually WAS shooting at the guy, noone knew for sure, and regardless, the motorcycle guy was speeding away and obviously heading to safety, too.

 

[mattro]

Call me stupid or naive, but I don't see a big difference between this guy and the VT shootings. Whats different, the body count? This situation could have easily been 1 to 5 dead. So at what body count do you say, OK, that is enough, I should quit being a spectactor and do something.

markj's comment was "why would anyone do anything but call 911" If that is his comfort level, fine. My comfort level is to protect others, then myslef.

I have no fantasies of taking someone's life, I just think real men that are carrying and are trained, should intervene when someone is trying to hurt or kill an innocent person.

 

[eltorrente]

Call me stupid or naive, but I don't see a big difference between this guy and the VT shootings. Whats different, the body count? This situation could have easily been 1 to 5 dead. So at what body count do you say, OK, that is enough, I should quit being a spectactor and do something.

markj's comment was "why would anyone do anything but call 911" If that is his comfort level, fine. My comfort level is to protect others, then myslef.

I have no fantasies of taking someone's life, I just think real men that are carrying and are trained, should intervene when someone is trying to hurt or kill an innocent person.

Who or What was he shooting at? Was he a ccw holder that just got assaulted/robbed? Undercover/offduty cop?

You would draw your weapon and possibly shoot the guy without knowing what was going on, rather than call the police?

 

[mattro]

I would have to see him sending bullets into what I perceive as innocent people. I would definetely have to establish this is a bad guy shooting at innocent people.

 

[JAXX]

Quote:
The guy was shooting at another man who was on a motorcycle. He was shooting to kill, not shooting for the sign.


Oh really?

Yes really. I am the OP on this post, and this story has been in the paper numerous times since the incident. I only posted the original story because I really didn't see the need to post anymore. The basic rundown is that the shooter is a local guy from Cody who has had some problems with the guy that he was shooting at for quite a while. There has been bad blood between them for years. The cops were able to find the shooter from the license plate number given to them by several witnesses. The guy that he was shooting at was the man who left via motorcycle. This was a big deal because stuff like this does not happen up here too much at all. I believe that attempted murder charges have been filed against the shooter. So, the fact is he was shooting to kill, not for "target" practice.

 

[markj]

What if at the VT shootings, there was someone within engagement distance that had a ccw and was trained to use it?

No sense of humor mattro? That line was from an old george carlin bit.

First of all as a CCW you are to keep yer self out of harms way, not one ccw class will train you to go after anyone. You fall back to a place of safety and protect yourself and loved ones. Shoot only if you are directly threatened. As wild stated, how do you know who is shooting and at what? You have limited info here bub.

In the case of VT? If I was at the location I would have had no weapons as any legal ccw, catch 24 there, against the law to carry there. Cant say what I would have done, wasnt there. I have removed guns from guys a couple times and a few knives as a bouncer. Picked one guy up by his neck and shook him after he threatened me. One handed, he was around 150lbs. I am twice his size. I dont play hero man, I am not a mall ninja nor do I have lofty ideals on my actual limitations. Took bodyguard classes way back in the 70s, thought I wanted to protect folks for money, now that was a silly idea.

Stay alive, number one priority, not go after guy with a gun. That will get you killed real fast.

 

[mattro]

First of all as a CCW you are to keep yer self out of harms way,

I disagree. This isn't stated in laws, not stated in ccw or self defense classes, or in books by reputable writers. I am willing to put myself in harms way to protect myself and innocent others. It is your prerogative to only worry about yourself, I choose defend to innocent people.

not one ccw class will train you to go after anyone.

I disagree. If someone is unloading a gun into innocent people and I am in the area and can make the determination that this is a bad guy shooting innocent people, I will do something. A class or instructor that says otherwise will get neither my money or my time. I say there isn't a self defense instructor out there worth anything that would not agree with me on the obligation to get involved. If someone doesn't have the ability or the desire to get involved, that is another story. I have the ability and the desire to stop evil from hurting innocence.

You keep 'staying alive' as your number one priority, and I'll keep my priorities where my conscience will allow.

 

[JunyTuck]

I carry to protect myself, my family and my possessions. If you choose otherwise then your on your own. I have not been trained to intervene and where do you draw the line anyway? Sure, I would call 911, then get out of the way and let the police handle it.

 

[Magdaddy]

He probably bought something, got home and realized half the parts wre missing or the instructions to assemble came in Viet Namese. I think these big discount stores should have a training video for these situations, Maybe show a cashier running in a serpentine pattern through cookware or something. As for the hero following the guy, what a great memory that would have made for his son to see dad gunned down, or even worse dad getting his son gunned down. I think this future darwin award candidate should get a ticket for endangering a child.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You keep 'staying alive' as your number one priority, and I'll keep my priorities where my conscience will allow.

This pretty much sums up most of the intervention debates. However, it has all kinds of hidden processes that the blanket statement avoids.

Does your conscience care about whether you are going to disrupt your family's life for a stranger?

Do you think the 'innocents' are worthy of your help? Would you join the fight if an obvious gang member at WalMart opens up on a group of other gang members?

It isn't that simple as an internet posting.

 

[mattro]

Good wise sumation Glenn.

Does your conscience care about whether you are going to disrupt your family's life for a stranger?

I have thought alot of these situations. I honestly don't think I could live with myself if one or multiple innocent people die at the hand of an evil person and I turned an eye so I could stay safe instead of doing something about it. For me to coddle myself or my family while a mother and child are killed doesn't seem right. I don't think my wife, my God, or my conscience would approve.

I would hope a MAN would indanger himself to intervene if it were my daughter, wife or mother in peril. I think thats a man's job.

Obviously I would weigh the situation. I am not saying every situation is worth me putting my life on the line. Gang bangers fighting each other - their on their own.

I just can't stand how far to the 'not get involved' most people are on TFL.

A situation gets posted like - "A bg walks into a restaurant and pulls a gun and tells everyone to give him their wallets - what would you do?" Most replies on TFL quickly say:
** do nothing
** give bg your wallet
** crawl out the back door
** be a good witness to the crime and do nothing
** run and call 911
** do nothing unless the bg shoots someone

I'm not trying to be Rambo or Steven Segal, but I don't understand why men that are carrying a firearm that they are trained to use, have the first instinct to cower, run, flee and do nothing. It's maddening. Lable me John Wayne if you want, but at this stage in my life (38 with 5 kids), I am more inclined to quickly analyze the situation and get involved if needed. Not look for the quickest way to exit and stay safe when someone else's life might be in danger.

Most people on TFL label someone that is willing to endanger themselves to get involved a "John Wayne". Why not call someone who's first instinct is to crawl out a back door or run and call 911 a "coward"?

To each his own...

 

[markj]

I disagree. If someone is unloading a gun into innocent people and I am in the area and can make the determination that this is a bad guy shooting innocent people, I will do something.

Which CCw class taught you to intervene?

CCW was in a mall, guy was shooting up the place, CCW guy pulled and got close, he couldnt pull the trigger when it came time, he was shot up. Shooting a man isnt like standing at a range and throwing lead at a paper target. Some cant even pull on a deer, seen it happen many times in real life. Face to face, eye to eye, most will wet their pants and get shot when it comes time to look the BG in his face. You must be a big man to want to do this, or maybe crazy. You get shot once, may change yer mind.

I would hope a MAN would indanger himself to intervene if it were my daughter, wife or mother in peril.

I would hope some idiot with a gun would keep the hell out of it and not get my loved one killed by his insane actions. LEO are trained exrensivly, think you are up to that level? You may get yerself killed off fast.

 

[mattro]

That CCW guy in the mall probably ended up better than a shameful life of nightmares of people being executed while he cowered in a corner with a gun on his hip, calling 911...

You're right. I might wet my pants. I might chicken out when the true test comes. I hope that test never comes. If it does, I hope to be smart enough that my actions don't endanger anyone.

But, if the time came, I hope that I would try.

If a child was choking on a piece of candy, would you sit back and take notes, call 911 and wait for the ambulance? They are far better trained. There is risk that you might hurt the child with a heimlick, the child might die in your arms resulting in a law suit. Everything has risk.

 

[mattro]

markj: Which CCw class taught you to intervene?

I doubt if any professional instructor would, during a class, advocate intervening due to liability issues. Threre are too many variables for an instructor to cover when you should and should not intervene, plus he has no idea what your capabilities are.

I also doubt if any instructor worth anything would tell you to NOT intervene. Most books written by reputable writers advocate helping innocent people. Most instructors would tell you off the record to intervene to the best of your ability.

The Gunsite classes i attended would not advocate for or against intervening. They said that it depends on your confidence and your morals.

Can you imagine, while your giving your 'good witness' account after several people were murdered in cold blood, that you tell the officer and the surviving family that you watched the whole thing with a gun concealed on your hip and did nothing because you did not feel it was your place to intervene... Good luck with that.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How about the CCW guy who stopped a deranged spouse or husband (too lazy to search but its a well known story posted recently) from setting his woman on fire after stabbing her?

I supposed he was nuts. Also, can we have some data on how many CCW interventions led to an innocent being shot by the CCW person?

When, Markj, you say most will wet their pants - how do you know? From experience?

 

[markj]

If a child was choking on a piece of candy, would you sit back and take notes

That piece of candy wont arrest me or kill me, besides I am CPR and First Aid certed. Apples to oranges. Each situation is different, each response is different. Do as you will, just dont go shooting at people without making sure of who you are shooting at.

When, Markj, you say most will wet their pants - how do you know? From experience?

When I was shot outside of my Dads bar (bouncer) I didnt pee myself, no, I rolled under a truck and got away from him, I was unarmed as Nebr had no CCW and I was working at a bar. How about you? Manly man. I was also stuck in the backl of my neck with a knife, I took it and kept it. Why you should see some of the items I took away from manly men a sawed off 12 ga once, handed it over to the cops tho. How many have you disarmed so far?


A gun battle isnt a trip dowm fun lane, anyone that thinks it will be a walk in the park will find themselves dead real quick.

If I was in a school, I would be unarmed, if I was cornered, I would try to fight my way out, this is instinctual and this will kick in when you are confronted by this type of horror, unless you train and train hard. I have heard stories from my 2 cop cousins, I realize I am not a cop, nor a super hero. I am not out to fight crime or become a mall ninja. I can defend myself, but I dont go out looking for trouble.

kids should stay off mommies PC. Dont play with guns either, they are not toys.

 

[Capt. Charlie]

Some of you folks are taking this way too personal. Suggest you count to ten in at least one language, lest a countdown of another sort commence .

 

[mattro]

If wanting to intervene (help someone) makes us a bunch of kids, then being a pacifist automatically means you are over 50? or over 65?

 

[zeroskillz]

If I was by myself, I'd run.
If I was with my family, I'd grab a kid, get the wife to do the same, and run.

My responsibility is to my family first, and that means not only protecting them if I'm able, but not getting dead as well.

'Course, if I walked out of Wallmart and heard gunshots, I'm sure my first reaction would be to look and stare while my brain tries to compute....

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Perhaps I was overboard in responded to what I thought was ill founded inflammatory rhetoric by MarkJ.

My point is this:

Have we really seen a significant number of innocents shot by CCW permit holders in intervention incidents?

I say - we have not. We have had a few well publicized bad tactics from CCW types - Tyler and the mall - but one can find numerous successful interventions.

The argument against intervention usually has not be based on performance but on self-centered liability issues or fears that getting hurt will take you away from your family responsibilities.

Thus, in a less insulting manner, I still find Markj's statement without basis in fact.