Y'all forgive me. I done messed up.

$50,000 of .45s and 115 .40s is a DROP IN THE BUCKET.

S&W's institutional sales over the past 5 years don't come even remotely close to equaling what it was selling on the civilian market in a SINGLE year.

Since the agreement was signed nearly 2 years ago now, S&W's level of institutional sales have remained roughly the same, judging by notices just such as these.

But guess what has happened to their commercial sales?

A 50% drop in commercial sales over the past 18 months.

If anyone thinks that S&W can make it on institutional sales alone, I've got news for you. They can't.

One of the reasons why S&W was so eager to accept the agreement was the promise that the company would be given preferential treatment in Gov't procurement. Unfortunatly for S&W's attorneys, they apparently didn't realize that Housing and Urban Development didn't have the power or authority to make that a Federal-wide mandate. Only Congress has that power, and Congress neatly shot that provision down last summer.

Now, if the boycott was so ineffective as you think this information proves, then why did:

Smith make the annual summer furlough TWO months instead of one month last year?

Lay off 125 people?

For S&W to attempt to survive on it's current sales levels would likely require a massive restructuring of it's debt load, serious write-offs of debt, and possible bankruptcy protection for reorganization.

Perhaps the company could survive, in a much reduced and emasculated form, but would it ever really have a niche market? At one time S&W DID have a niche market -- police and military revolver sales -- but those days are long gone.

Here's a prediction for you. Unless S&W takes drastic measures, such as repudiating the agreement, or being released from it, you're going to see another group of people lose their jobs.
 
Baseball, Coca Cola, Ford, Apple Pie, Black-Eyed Peas and Smith and Wesson. Ruger is publicly traded and anything can happen. Saf-T-Hammer may be as well for that matter. Visualize a world where only Beretta, Glock, Sig, Walther and HK rule from a Europe that is increasingly hostile to American business interests. Do you really think the Euro players would be cramped if the government mandated a Smith type agreement across the board? Heck that's the way they operate in Europa now.

We need to push the envelope now while Bush is in and get this thing settled in our favor. We do not need to lose Smith and Wesson as a player or we will see even fewer American made guns on the market meaning astronomical prices for a quality firearm.

Smith cannot fund R&D on the low margins of gevernment and police contracts. They need the profit levels from public sales to flourish. They are aware of this and now is the time for us undertake a campaign that will benefit both parties. If we let Smith go down we will have proven our point but all will lose. If Smith is gone, the anti's will have one less American producer and don't think for a minute that theywon't force a Smith type agrrement down the throats of the off-shore manufacturers. What will you do then? Go to slingshots?

If we get another Clinton type in the Whitehouse with a Democrat Congress, don't be shocked if they force some legislation through that will force all makers to capitulate whether they want to or not. Don't be fooled into thinking that Glock or Beretta would back away from LEO and Military sales if they couldn't sell to Jim Bob Public.

Again, I say the soil is right to get S&W back on course and we need to be in their face offering an olive branch if they will move away from the agreement. Does anyone think under the legal system we have that Smith would make a public fanfare of easing out of the agreement? That would be suicide. Our legal system while flawed is the best hands down. That said, it has a slow and tedious nature. Once more, Saf-T-Hammer is not stupid and they know the current agreement will stiffle growth.
 
Try this on for size, WillBear.

A world in which it doesn't matter WHO makes firearms -- Italians, Martians, or Hoosnach -- because you can't buy a new gun.

Why?

Because of complacency, laziness, and misguided loyalty.

Remaining loyal to an organization or a concept that has effectively turned against you isn't loyalty.

It is, quite frankly, stupidity.

My family had a long history of purchasing Chrysler automobiles. Probably 40 in all by my parents, grandparents, brother, etc.

So, when it was time for me to buy a new car, guess what I bought?

Yep, a new Plymouth.

Only from day one there were problems with it. MAJOR problems with it. Warranty problems with it. Only Chrysler didn't want to do anything about them.

Their basic response was "Well, we have your money, ****head, so don't bug us again."

And you know, the entire time old Fatcat Iacoca was on TV, exhorting Americans to "BUY AMERICAN!!!!"

Guess what, though? The entire time he was telling us to do that?

He was importing more cars and engines from Japan than he was making in the United States.

I wish that this were an experience limited to just me, but it's not. I could sit here for most of the night recounting experiences of friends and acquaintences who have had virtually the same problems with newer model Chrysler products, and gotten much the same response from corporate, even after the sale to Daimler.

Yes, I would LOVE to support American-owned companies that produce their products here in the United States. But I'm not going to do it at the cost of shoddy service, production capabilities, or if that company actively does something that is completely counter to my rights as an AMERICAN.

So, please, tell me again why I should support a company that refuses to support me, just because it's American owned?

Oh yeah, my next car? It's going to be a Honda CR-V.

Why? Well, when an American company can make a sport-ute that even REMOTELY matches the CR-V's qualities and capabilities at that price, I'll be interested.

Jimmy? Explorer? Don't make me laugh. Jeep Liberty? Chrysler product.
 
Oh, WillBear?

We've already discussed the "forcing an S&W style-agreement" down the throats of other companies.

Seeing that they know what happened to S&W, just how quickly do you think they'll be willing to accept something like that?

There's not a single firearms manufacturer, foreign OR domestic, that sells more firearms institutionally than commercially in the United States.

Likely the closest is Glock.

The others? They know that their livelihood bread is buttered on the commercial side, which gives them VERY little incentive to commit the same kind of corporate suicide that S&W has.

So, good try, but not a good point. It just doesn't match up to the reality.

Sure the time is right to get S&W back on the right track.

But the most effective, no, the ONLY, way to do that is to CONTINUE the boycott until S&W repudiates the agreement.

If everyone just started buying S&W products again, please tell me just what incentive S&W would have to move against the agreement?

Can you say NONE?

Sure. I knew you could!
 
I would be willing to bet that the new Smith and Wesson owners have recieved quite a few e-mails telling them that gun owners would be glad to patronize them as soon as they squash the agreement.

I doubt they get very many saying "I just bought a new gun from you, and I'm mad as hell about the agreement".

The boycott is not an olive branch. It is the stick and carrot. The olive branch will be apropriate after they negate the agreement.

If Smith says "Well, the agreement was a bad idea, and now we might fight it", should we all run out and buy a new Smith?

I won't. That may work for the weak-willed who is looking for any excuse to justify a purchase. I'll wait till the carrot has done it's job.

All this talk about Smith being our last great hope as an American manufacturer is laughable. If they go under, a more enterprising party will buy the equipment and forge ahead. That's what we call free enterprise.

It's what the agreement is trying to kill, by the way.
 
Make friends for life, and enemies longer.

I'll not have a thing to do with S&W. Not ever. Cancel the agreement or not. Why? Gun owners need to flex their muscles. Destroying S&W would send a message LOUD and clear. It would make them afraid, very afraid. Politics is power friends. Pure, and unadulterated. FEAR is power. Make them fear us.

-Morgan
 
I'm not entirely convinced by Will Beararms' "support" of an American company. Sounds more like rationalization after the fact.

Will: Why was the tone of your first post a sort of sheepish embarassment that asked for forgiveness? Why wasn't it a bold statement of patriotically supporting what is American?

Frankly, a lot of people I've met that have bought S&W don't give a rat's ass about RKBA. They are in what I call the "I want" mentality, and they wanted a pretty new toy. And there are always plenty of ways to rationalize past actions. In this case, it's funny how guilt("Ya'll forgive me") melts away into "I'm not sorry for buying a Smith and Wesson".
 
SOME RKBA THOUGHTS........

If you buy a used S&W you help the gunshop or dealer survive.

If you buy a new S&W you show support for a flawed policy.

If S&W does not release themselves from this flawed policy then we still have other guns we can buy.

If the current administration does not allow S&W to change their policy then we must apply more pressure to both.

My (wife's) only S&W is used, and was purchased in 1992. I'd really like a 610, but I can't buy one yet....




------------------------------------------------

"all my freedom is guaranteed freedom"
 
If you bought the gun and it is a good one, the way I see it is not that you were supporting S&W but that you were supporting yourself.

I have known people who operate on the idea that they don't want to support Comapny X for certain reasons and they will buy another product from Company Y that is comparable in price, but of poorer quality. They bought from Y only because they refused by buy from X. The net result is that while they did not support Company X, they rewarded Company Y for making an inferior product and they are the one who gets saddled with the inferior product.

The most important thing is to take care of yourself. The little bit of profit S&W is inconsequential to what a quality gun may do for you in an emergency situation.
 
I just got off the phone with Saf-T-Hammer. They knew that the public was not happy with the agreement but chose to buy Smith anyway. The kind lady advised me to read a Wal Street Journal Article dated August One which explains that HUD considers the package put together by the Clinton Administration as a memorandum of understanding and it considering it null and void. The lady stated that she did not blame people for being upset.

Saf-T-Hammer thought the agreement would be voided with new ownership but that was not the case. For the time being, The Bush administration has allowed them breathing room to tackle each legal obstacle one by one in the hopes this will be rectified before Bush leaves office. The first goal at Smith is get back into the black. Then, they hope to get over the legal hurdles and possibly run public adds denouncing the agreement and asking for forgiveness per this lady. For the time being, the money is not there and they must focus on staying afloat and fighting the numerous lawsuits that were filed by various municipalities during the reign of Clinton.

The lady spoke from the heart and I am willing to support Smith as they work through this quagmire. Shoot me down if you will. The boycott has worked they are losing money hand over fist and they understand that there are some who will never come around. I for one admire Saf-T-Hammer for taking on this awsome task to keep an American Icon alive and I will stand in the trenches with them.

I truly started out asking for forgiveness but the more I have researched the new owners, the more I understand what they are up against and I know if the cash flow was there, they would be more aggressive in fighting each battle. I was wrong about the Bush administration. Thank goodness, they are giving Smith a reprieve from the agreement and actually voiding it so that Smith can get back on their feet again. I chose not to kick Smith while they are down. You may do as you choose.
 
The most important thing is to take care of yourself.
Click to expand...
This is, of course, one way to look at it: screw everybody else. Somehow I don't think we're putting our lives in danger by not packing post-agreement Smith auto's or wheelguns.

- Gabe
 
"one way to look at it: screw everybody else."

Works for me! :D I sure do like my new SW317LS. I don't know or care if its pre- or post-agreement. :p It was pre-lock ( got to have some principles <LOL>).
 
Hum...

Let's see.

Saf-T-Hammer needs cash because the company has been hurt by the boycott.

Sounds to me like they know EXACTLY what they need to do to get the cash flowing again.

Come out STRONGLY against the agreement in newspaper ads, magazine ads, etc.

Until that happens, Saf-T-Hammer could very well be blowing smoke.

Actions speak louder than words.

And if Saf-T-Hammer wants to bring S&W back, they're going to have to start screaming from the rooftops NOW, not later.

It's funny that Saf-T-Hammer hasn't responded to a single one of my e-mails about this subject, but you can get this from someone on the phone.

But until there is movement, POSITIVE movement, the boycott must stay in place. Anything less is premature.
 
Mike:

409-949-9700 is the number. Go throgh the message stuff, press 0 and ask for Carol. Per her, they know they need to do ads and something may be forthcoming soon. Tell her this in regards to an earlier conversation with a Texan if you want to.

Thanks
 
Will, I dialed the number you provided. Got no answer, no recorded message, no Carol. At 4:13 central time. I will try again tomorrow.

The HUD that you refer to would be the Bush Administration HUD, Not the Clinton version. What they do with the agreement is up to President Bush. Or the next President, if the agreement is still around. That is why action must be taken now.

All this talk of supporting them now is really too much. They haven't said boo about the agreement. If they want our business they better spend some bucks on informative advertising and start kicking butt with their lawyers. They can lie all they want (and their sales staff have) about future intentions, but they deserve no quarter till the agreement is dead. A lot more than your shopping pleasure is riding on this, my friend.

They bought the company knowing that the agreement was part of the deal. The only unknown at the time they negotiated the deal was that President Bush would be around to cut them some slack. They took a calculated risk, and at this moment they have a larger advantage than they planned to have. If they bought the company with the intention of killing the contract then they calculated time and money to do so and with Bush's help they should be well on the way. Saying so in public would not harm them.

I think they are caught in the embarrassing position of Bush trying to help them out of a situation they do not wish to change. How do they explain that to customers whose business they want, but cannot have? Procrastination and deception.

For you to imply that cash flow is the fly in the ointment and that the patriotic thing for us to do is make Smith rich is.....obscene.

You support them if you want. I'll give my money to companies that aren't trying to destroy RKBA, the shooting sports, and free enterprise in general. Hopefully some day that will include Smith.
 
Just called the number again. Talked to someone. Asked for Carol.

"you have the wrong number."

I ask "Is this a business?"

"No it's not."

You may want to repost the number you called, Will, Before this poor girl gets three hundred phone calls.:)
 
Just called the number again. Talked to someone. Asked for Carol.

"you have the wrong number."

I ask "Is this a business?"

"No it's not."


Wow. We sure did put them out of business quickly. :)
 
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