Y'all forgive me. I done messed up.

Mr. Irwin,

My comments in reference to a boycott as doing nothing was not to imply that boycotts are not effective or in a way semi-active. However I cannot see how the Dr. King analogy relates. My point was that in the big picture of protecting our second ammendment rights, we need to do much more than simply boycotting manufacturers who fall prey to the power of the federal government. We need to actively SUPPORT the firearms industry, we must be politically active, we must teach young people the truth about safe and responsible firearms ownership, we must foil the anti-gun propaganda, we must write letters, discuss the issues with our family and friends, we must work 10% harder and with more resolve than those people who would strip us of our RKBA.

Surely you must agree that the TFL member who just doesn't buy S&W firearms, but does nothing else to support the cause, is not actively protecting firearms ownership. Or maybe not.

You did partially win me over on your "acceptable losses" response. And my comments are meant to convey my personal opinions on this subject, looking at things from a slighlty bigger perspective than just S&W.

Divide and conquer? I don't think so. More division is created by tunnel vision, and the unwillingness to accept other people's view points. I don't expect to win anyone over, I save that for political activism. What I would like is a little more open mindedness. And as VonFatman put it, we can just agree to disagree.

mlk18
 
RB6,

I think if you review my post you will see that I see my "boycotting" Kmart as a personal failure to support them. A mistake I do not intend to make twice and a mistake that made me rethink my position of S&W and try to be a little more open minded.

My reference to logic was poised at individuals whose reponses (mostly email) were simply one line insults or inferrences that if you disagree with them you are not only wrong but you must be stupid too.

The 2nd ammendment walks hand and hand with the 1st. And I don't see me as having a "who cares" attitude. Maybe I missed something, but I am actually quite involved in protecting my rights.
But thank you for your response just the same.

mlk18
 
Silver Bullet. Thanks for the address. And, as implied in your sarcasm, maybe youre right. It's probably better to bitch and moan on sites like this then to bombard a company with customer feedback. Smart businessmen just ignore that stuff anyway. I think I'll go make an "I hate Smith and Wesson" poster to hang in my cellar.
 
MLK 18,

I'm baffled as to why you don't see a correlation between the S&W Boycott and the Birmingham Bus Boycott.

Both are examples of grass roots activism.

Both are examples of an effort made in an attempt to both show displeasure and effect change.

Of course, the S&W boycott is still playing out, but both have been successful.

The point is that a boycott is not a passive form of activism. It is, in fact, an extremely agressive form of activism because it strikes at the financial underpinnings of the target.

Interestingly enough, the Birmingham effort also faced opposition, and from within its own ranks.

Some blacks refused to honor the boycott (you rarely hear about that) because they simply either didn't care, or didn't think it would make one whit of difference.

Several prominent black leaders of the day came out either neutral on the potential for the boycott, or heavily against it because they thought it would lead to violence.

OK, enough about the Birmingham Boycott.

As for people needing to do more for the Second Amendment, HELL YES.

But if all someone does is put off the intended purchase of a Smith & Wesson handgun, knife, T-shirt, or coffee mug until the agreement is repudiated, well damnit, that's pretty good, too and YES, they are supporting their rights.

Oh, I'll be the first to admit that we can agree to disagree.

Just expect me to argue with you about it until hell freezes over.

That in and of itself has an educational value for those who are still sitting on the fence about the issue.

So pull up a chair. Hell isn't freezing over any time soon. :)
 
Ed2:

Sorry, but I was not being sarcastic. I genuinely like your idea. When I reread my post I had some concerns about it being interpreted that way because my tone was so gung ho and enthusiastic, especially compared to the somewhat dour and somber tones of most of these messages.

I had expected that the content of the latter part of my post would make it clear to all that I embrace the idea of persuing means in addition to the boycott.

I apologize to anyone (and especially to Ed2) who thought I was being sarcastic.
 
Yes, I think we should support a company that DEMANDS local dealers comply with guidelines such as:

The Dealer must create a database and make ALL documents/information regarding firearms purchases available to whomever S&W designates.

That alone scares me enough! The goddamn company DEMANDS that your gun dealer record your information and turn it over to the ATF or FBI or the....... U.N.?

I ask myself "Why would they need that information?" hmmmm....

Yep I hope you enjoy that gun. I hope you don't mind giving it to the "listmakers" when they come and set up tables in your city hall.

Mike, I still owe you a beer.
 
I want to expand on my previous posts.

1) I think Ed2’s e-mail idea is good because I suspect S&W is sitting back waiting for us to cave. If enough of us write them, we can show them that we're sitting back waiting for them to repudiate. Possibly they will realize the windfall they will receive in pent-up orders once they cancel the agreement and publicly renounce it. Also, look at the result of our e-mails to Lowe’s recently. They removed some of the offending propaganda from their web site in response to our e-mails, and the proportion of customers who are gun-owners at Lowe's must be much less than S&W’s.

2) What has me excited about the e-mail idea is I realized it was breaking the “boycott only” mold. The suggestion using e-mail in addition to a boycott made me realize that we should be considering other ideas too. I was hoping that we can use TFL as a forum for a brainstorming session where everyone pitches in their ideas, and then we stand back and look them over to see which have potential.
 
Ya we could argue until hell freezes over, but this isn't near as much fun as tearing into my liberal democrat friends and being a huge pain in the ass for my Senator and Congressmen. Almost, but still not quite. But I still don't think I have been able to convey my point as I am still getting replies and emails askinh how I could buy a S&W and turn my back on the RKBA, which I never did. I believe I posted a few times back that the agreement was crap and I had no plans on personally buying a post-agreement S&W. I was simply helping defend Will Beararms choice (and right?) to purchase one. And at the same time maybe get people to stop getting angry and flamming each other, but instead actually have productive discussions exploring the pro and con of some of these issues. Now I think I am going to start posting about how all Glocks, Sigs, H&K's and Browning firarms are pure crap and that the only good guns out there are the .45 Liberator and the LLama Omni 9mm.

But, at the same time, I am still not getting the correlation between Dr. King and the S&W boycott. If both are fruit, then one would be a grape and the other a watermelon. Hey! What was that!? I think I heard a snowflake forming in hell! Better call Janet Reno and see what's going on down there (I know, cheap shot).

mlk18
 
Yup, it is anyone's right to buy a post agreement gun from Smith. It's their choice. But to come onto any forum and sheepishly ask for forgiveness is begging for trouble. What are they looking for? I agree with those who feel that purchasers of post gun guns have just mashed on our 2nd amendment rights. Buying the gun and then proudly advertising it is a slap in the face of a lot of people. Why take this sort of action unless it was meant to slap someone in the face. Post what you did and then sit back and watch the fireworks.

Boycotts work, whether its buses, grapes, lettuce, beer or guns. The only way to get their attention is to hit them in the pocketbook. It is their pocketbook they were thinking about when they signed the agreement. They weren't thinking about their customers! So why should we worry about them.

As a business person it concerns me that a company might go out of business. But in this case the company cared not for its customers otherwise it would not have signed the agreement.

I would love to purchase another S&W revolver but I have to stand firm. I even have felt guilty about considering a used revolver. Had a chance to buy a used pistol at a good price but my conscious got the better of me. I could not bring myself to do it. I have to support my 'brothers in arms'.

As for those of you who have purchased a post agreement S&W, don't expect any sympathy. Either keep quiet to avoid being flamed or get rid of it and come back here and tell us. Maybe then you'll get my forgiveness.

My apologies for ranting. I am normally a quiet person, just couldn't stand it anymore.
 
Silver Bullet
Thanks for replying -- I never know when people are serious or not these days. I think the point is, as implied in your follow-up post is -- Nothing is done without trying. Hitting them with a bunch of emails and letters cant hurt. New Owners are going to be sensitive to that stuff. (I would guess)
Sorry for that nasty reply.
-Ed
 
Not to shift blame from what I did but where in the &^%$ is the Bush Administration on all of this hmmm? Did Clinton rule by Fiat? I don''t think Congress passed any laws on the S&W agreement did they? Whose side are the Republicans on anyway. Each day that passes makes me believe that Wallace was right when he said there's not a dime's worth of difference between a repuplican and a democrat.

Remember this, if we allow S&W to go under, there will be no quality handguns made in American and we will be at the mercy of Europe and Brazil. I do not consider Kahr quality and Springfield Armory is made in Brazil. How would you like to have a roughly finished (but tough) Ruger as America's flagship. Has anyone looked at the underside of a P 97? It looks like they used a grinder on the plastic to smooth it out.
 
Quit Blaming Bush, he had nothing to do with STINK and WEASLE signing the "agreement".

HOWEVER, the BUSH Administation is NOT enforcing the "agreement". IT WAS in the USA TODAY`S monday edition.

In case you havent heard, BUSH is PRO-2ND, and has aleady paid gunowners dividens on us getting him in office.:cool:
 
Will, I think you forgot about a Beretta, a company that produces firearms in the USA and actually supports RKBA. I don't know why the NRA is so in love with Ruger when Beretta supports our rights more than other companies. I guess we know that the NRA looks after itself more than our rights.
 
In case you havent heard, BUSH is PRO-2ND, and has aleady paid gunowners dividens on us getting him in office
Click to expand...
Except for that assault weapons ban and normal cap mag importation thing.
 
To tell you the truth, I am not sorry for buying a Smith and Wesson and in fact......

my next purchase will be a 486 .357 Magnum. I am not blaming Bush for the agreement but his actions thus far are nothing but middle of the road at best. Surely, none here are naive enough to believe that the Republicans are not going to get hammered during the next round of elections and surely no one here is idealistic enough to belive that Bush will get another term.

His actions now will mean nothing when the Democrats take full control. No I do not blame him for what S&W did but at the same time, I must ask all of you who are boycotting S&W: does the fact that S&W supported all manner of RKBA efforts and sporting events for 150 years mean nothing? Does the fact that S&W was manipulated by an administration with no morals, no sense of fair play or even a vague respect for the constitution make no difference? If Bush is serious about the 2nd, he will by means of excecutive order, destroy the S&W agreement. He cannot take the easy way out as he did with stem cell research.

Additinally, we don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Something positive may be just around the corner.
 
(Theme song from Get Smart, inserted here! :) ) Mission Complete: I drove over to the address I listed above for Saf-T-Hammer to see if they still resided there. They were closed (Saturday), but appear to still be operating at that location, to which I would add one more detail to their address:

Suite 221

They even have a S&W decal on their glass door.
 
Hello Will, Did you not hear that Bush is NOT enforcing the smith & wesson AGREEMENT????

Please secure a copy of last MONDAYS`s USA TODAYS newspaper if you can. IT was very encouraging! Bush of course was taking slack from handgun control for not enforcing the agreement, he`s on your side of course. ISN`T that why you were aloud to buy one that can take hi-caps! Or someone else did anyway. IF the "Goregon" had gottin elected, there would have been "full enforcement". Can`t you see that! IN the USA TODAYS formentioned artical it had how gunowners helped put him in the Whitehouse, and how he and Ascroft are pro-gun. I WOULD have figured you especaily would have liked the fact that they were not allowing the "agreement" to go in effect!
 
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gconan:

Thanks for the good news and for setting me straight. I can tell after the way the democrats behaved during blue dress gate, I can tell you I will never vote for a democrat period.

I will support the Republican Party just as I support S&W even though at times I will rail on them if I think they are off base.
 
Sorry Will...
I see nothing positive coming from your next *&* purchase (unless you're counting self gratification).
I respectfully disagree with your actions past and future (purchases) and I disagree with what you beleive is logic.
Have a great weekend.
 
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