After some thought, I am willing to bet that if the BF was shot, the GF would most likely flip and attack also. What then? Shoot her too? If she gets ahold of your gun, she WILL shoot you. I have taken down a few big black women while working at the hospital, I can assure you that with my 230lbs, I still was out of breath and was close to getting whooped. lol I'd say she she just attacked when you drew on the BF and shot her too.
Would you get involved?
- Thread starter Metellus
- Start date
kennybs plbg
New member
One that would have acted and did something/anything, or at least tried. It's not the size of the man, but whats in the heart of the man. This country was built on people doing the right thing and putting themselves in harms way for thier fellow man. It's sad to watch this country change, it's the hardest part of getting older, but knowing I raised 2 sons that wouldn't think twice in todays world to help the man out makes it a little easier. Actually the oldest just signed with the Marines last week.
kenny b
snacktrack
New member
I couldnt agree with Metellus's post more.. Very thought out response. THats what I was trying to get across.
In this case the bravado " a real man" could make you into a real man that looks like a rag doll on the floor.
In this case the bravado " a real man" could make you into a real man that looks like a rag doll on the floor.
zulustyle:
You know, I'm a 35 year old disabled soldier. I am the sole provider for my family which consists of three little kids, and wife. So I understand. But how can I teach my children to be honorable, and couageous, and to stand up for their morals and convictions, if I can't do the same? How can I stand there and watch something like that happen in front of me and do nothing? Would the great men who founded this country have done nothing, or would big fat dude be recovering from a serious beating himself? Now don't get me wrong, I don't say this out of any macho guy attitude. I say it because I physically and mentally could not stand to see someone who is unwilling or unable to defend themselves be possibly killed right in front of me. If that man had died from the beating, and I had done nothing to stop it, I am just as guilty of killing him as the guy who did the beating. What if our soldiers and police decided they just didn't want to get involved? Where would we be then? You can argue its because they are paid to do that, but I guess its whats inside a man that even makes him take those jobs in the first place. I am deeply ashamed and saddened by the apathy in america today.....but thats another thread I guess.......
Now of course the only way I would feel differently is if the little guy had provoked the beating. Hit the woman, whatever. If he had been guilty of anything, maybe he deserved a sound beating. Some people do. But I still would have stopped it if I thought it was going to end in permanent damage or death. And at the risk of pissing everyone off, if I had been that man whos MOUTH SHE SPIT IN......well......she'd have most likely been.....uhhm...
hindered too.....
You know, I'm a 35 year old disabled soldier. I am the sole provider for my family which consists of three little kids, and wife. So I understand. But how can I teach my children to be honorable, and couageous, and to stand up for their morals and convictions, if I can't do the same? How can I stand there and watch something like that happen in front of me and do nothing? Would the great men who founded this country have done nothing, or would big fat dude be recovering from a serious beating himself? Now don't get me wrong, I don't say this out of any macho guy attitude. I say it because I physically and mentally could not stand to see someone who is unwilling or unable to defend themselves be possibly killed right in front of me. If that man had died from the beating, and I had done nothing to stop it, I am just as guilty of killing him as the guy who did the beating. What if our soldiers and police decided they just didn't want to get involved? Where would we be then? You can argue its because they are paid to do that, but I guess its whats inside a man that even makes him take those jobs in the first place. I am deeply ashamed and saddened by the apathy in america today.....but thats another thread I guess.......
Now of course the only way I would feel differently is if the little guy had provoked the beating. Hit the woman, whatever. If he had been guilty of anything, maybe he deserved a sound beating. Some people do. But I still would have stopped it if I thought it was going to end in permanent damage or death. And at the risk of pissing everyone off, if I had been that man whos MOUTH SHE SPIT IN......well......she'd have most likely been.....uhhm...
hindered too.....
kennybs plbg
New member
Amen! (can I still say that)
kenny b
kenny b
springfieldmaniac
New member
Well there was an incident in the fairly recent past in Dutchess County,NY.involving two felons.One was an ex-con that had spent a number of years in prison for murder.Well the story was he was walking down the street.A very large male started pummeling him with no mercy.The ex-murderer pulled a knife and stabbed him.The attacker died of his injuries.The DA did not file charges and deemed it self-defense.
It is a fine line,but do you sacrifice life in prison to save someone else in this situation like in the pizza parlor? If he had continued to beat him or started to kick him while he was on the floor,then I think it would be more appropriate to use deadly force if the man did not cease his attack when at gunpoint.IT is also a consideration of a very crowded parlor,might be a bad move to introduce a gun in such tight,crowded quarters.In any case people there should have done something other than deadly force at least.Sure the guy is big,but he would have trouble dealing with multiple attackers.There are times when you can walk into the middle of something and not know who the bad guy is,but this isn't the case.Sometimes I'm ashamed at my fellow citizens.
It is a fine line,but do you sacrifice life in prison to save someone else in this situation like in the pizza parlor? If he had continued to beat him or started to kick him while he was on the floor,then I think it would be more appropriate to use deadly force if the man did not cease his attack when at gunpoint.IT is also a consideration of a very crowded parlor,might be a bad move to introduce a gun in such tight,crowded quarters.In any case people there should have done something other than deadly force at least.Sure the guy is big,but he would have trouble dealing with multiple attackers.There are times when you can walk into the middle of something and not know who the bad guy is,but this isn't the case.Sometimes I'm ashamed at my fellow citizens.
rugerman13
New member
Volts to the sack ! !
I have A P-97 as a CCW, but I also carry a 300,000 volt stun gun.I think in this case I would be afraid to use my .45 because of how many people were in the room. Yes I would want to stop this guy, but I would not want to hurt an innocent person who happened to be in the line of fire. BUT !! I don't care how big this man is or how bad he thinks he is, if you put 300,000 volts to his sack, he is going to hit the floor, and I mean QUICK !
I have A P-97 as a CCW, but I also carry a 300,000 volt stun gun.I think in this case I would be afraid to use my .45 because of how many people were in the room. Yes I would want to stop this guy, but I would not want to hurt an innocent person who happened to be in the line of fire. BUT !! I don't care how big this man is or how bad he thinks he is, if you put 300,000 volts to his sack, he is going to hit the floor, and I mean QUICK !
chris in va
New member
A stun gun/taser or OC would definitely be the way to go in that situation, IMO.
But one thing I noticed, it seems like the other guys standing around weren't so much horrified as they were just observers...and maybe *letting* the BG beat him senseless. I really gotta wonder what the 'victim' was saying, maybe some racial slander?
Countless times I hear of a BG beating up on their wives, GF, whatever...but frankly the victim can say some pretty damn inflammatory words to trigger the attack. Not condoning violence in any way though, so don't get me wrong.
But one thing I noticed, it seems like the other guys standing around weren't so much horrified as they were just observers...and maybe *letting* the BG beat him senseless. I really gotta wonder what the 'victim' was saying, maybe some racial slander?
Countless times I hear of a BG beating up on their wives, GF, whatever...but frankly the victim can say some pretty damn inflammatory words to trigger the attack. Not condoning violence in any way though, so don't get me wrong.
Unique 5.7
New member
In my state, I would yell, "He's gonna kill him!" REALLY loud and as panicky as possible at the 3rd head punch. I would then pull and most likely kill the perp with 3 center of body mass shots. Then I'd probably puke and shake all over. (I stabbed a man in the femoral artery in self defense in 1970, almost killed him, and that was my reaction about ten minutes later. And, yes, people stood impotently around watching this.) Then, I'd lawyer up and pray my clean arrest record, age, military experience, 35 years of holding a job, witnessess there, and character witnessess would help me avoid legal trouble.
If I was unarmed, I would run out of the place yelling for a cop and looking for a phone. I do not have the skills and strength to fight that guy. BTW, just to let you know I am NO hero, a major motive for running out would be to spare myself injury.
If I was unarmed, I would run out of the place yelling for a cop and looking for a phone. I do not have the skills and strength to fight that guy. BTW, just to let you know I am NO hero, a major motive for running out would be to spare myself injury.
Unique 5.7
New member
P.S. I might even go see a shrink and get some kind of tranquilizers. And I'd berate myself for being an idiot to risk my freedom.
In my view, the attackers fists are a deadly weapon, due to his size and a relentless rage for continuing to beat a guy after he was unconsious. Deadly force does not only include handheld weapons. Anyone who has killed someone using martial arts falls under this category.
If I was carrying: I would have shot the guy in the knee/leg, without warning. If that didn't not stop the attack, more shots would follow. As for the bystanders, I think in the close proximity of the pizza shop there would be clear shots to and behind the attacker. Plus, the size of the attacker is so large, a shot going completely through him is doubtful.
Someone also mentioned, "what if the attacker was stomping on the head of the unconcious victim". That is an even more obvious use of deadly force. The attacker would have been shot until he was on the ground.
just my thoughts
If I was carrying: I would have shot the guy in the knee/leg, without warning. If that didn't not stop the attack, more shots would follow. As for the bystanders, I think in the close proximity of the pizza shop there would be clear shots to and behind the attacker. Plus, the size of the attacker is so large, a shot going completely through him is doubtful.
Someone also mentioned, "what if the attacker was stomping on the head of the unconcious victim". That is an even more obvious use of deadly force. The attacker would have been shot until he was on the ground.
just my thoughts
Mannlicher
New member
tough call. Guess I would have had to have actually been there in order for me to say what I would have done.
These things don't take long, and in my opinion, anything that would have stopped the attack instantly, would have been fatal to someone. I am really not sure if killing the fat guy would have been the best thing.
These things don't take long, and in my opinion, anything that would have stopped the attack instantly, would have been fatal to someone. I am really not sure if killing the fat guy would have been the best thing.
I know not everyone agrees, but I think there was a reasonable chance that he'd have fallen among the 98% of defensive gun uses where the attack is stopped with no shots fired.
He wasn't enraged and incoherent, he was methodically and deliberately kicking the victim's ass. I suspect that a .45 caliber bore in his face would have had a good chance of quickly reshuffling his priorities.
He wasn't enraged and incoherent, he was methodically and deliberately kicking the victim's ass. I suspect that a .45 caliber bore in his face would have had a good chance of quickly reshuffling his priorities.
Tough call. If I were CCW, that's even tougher. I'm 5'10" 170 and it's not all "solid muscle", if you know what I mean. Plus I'm fast approaching 50 years old. I am no match for Professor Toro Tanaka. I am not jumping on him with a concealed gun - if he gets that I am really in deep doo-doo. So it's either draw (and be ready to use the gun quick, otherwise don't draw!) or try and get out and call cops. If unarmed I would like to think I would try and do something, but Jeezuz that guy is big so some help would be nice.
Makes me think about carrying pepper spray - this seems the ideal situation.
Also makes me re-think carrying a bigger caliber! A .380 or 9mm would probably be like hitting that guy with a pellet gun.
It's a sickening video regardless. 4 years and the guy undoubtedly won't serve all of that - what bulls***.
Makes me think about carrying pepper spray - this seems the ideal situation.
Also makes me re-think carrying a bigger caliber! A .380 or 9mm would probably be like hitting that guy with a pellet gun.
It's a sickening video regardless. 4 years and the guy undoubtedly won't serve all of that - what bulls***.
I wondered if anyone would suggest kicking the guy's knees or attacking his legs. Doesn't always work.
First, one has to look at the man's size and his "beefy-ness". While he looks fat, I'd bet that there's a fair amount of muscle in there, underneath his "padding". And therein lies a problem. Using a baton of any kind to strike him in a knee, elbow or wrist probably won't do the damage it would on a 200 lb man. Two of us had the pleasure of trying to take down a guy like this in '77 using standard hickory batons. Repeated solid hits to knees, shins, ankles, wrist and hands went nearly unacknowledged.
He grabbed my partner's baton and lifted a 6'3", 220lb man off the ground and into the side of a dumpster, ending up with the baton. The Sgt. and I cleared leather together and the only remaining question was whether he gave up looking down Sarge's .45 or my .41 Mag. The only difference was that our perp was a rather large Samoan fellow and we needed leg irons to cuff him.
From the looks of the video, it appears that the victim avoided eye contact so as to avoid challenging and got slammed for it. Then he tried to make for the door to exit the situation but was stopped and hit again by Jabba the blut. After the 3rd hit you can see the victim trying to hold on to Jabba, only to be beaten down to the floor.
There's almost no position available inside the store from which any of the others could safely shoot. And with a man who's legs look like tree trunks, I'm not jumping on him at all. OC spray might've worked, but in those confines, everyone, including the user, would've been hit with the stuff.
In the 1890's, my great-grandfather would've stepped in with his sword cane and hobbled to S.O.B. Alas, such things will get you arrested in most cities today.
First, one has to look at the man's size and his "beefy-ness". While he looks fat, I'd bet that there's a fair amount of muscle in there, underneath his "padding". And therein lies a problem. Using a baton of any kind to strike him in a knee, elbow or wrist probably won't do the damage it would on a 200 lb man. Two of us had the pleasure of trying to take down a guy like this in '77 using standard hickory batons. Repeated solid hits to knees, shins, ankles, wrist and hands went nearly unacknowledged.
He grabbed my partner's baton and lifted a 6'3", 220lb man off the ground and into the side of a dumpster, ending up with the baton. The Sgt. and I cleared leather together and the only remaining question was whether he gave up looking down Sarge's .45 or my .41 Mag. The only difference was that our perp was a rather large Samoan fellow and we needed leg irons to cuff him. From the looks of the video, it appears that the victim avoided eye contact so as to avoid challenging and got slammed for it. Then he tried to make for the door to exit the situation but was stopped and hit again by Jabba the blut. After the 3rd hit you can see the victim trying to hold on to Jabba, only to be beaten down to the floor.
There's almost no position available inside the store from which any of the others could safely shoot. And with a man who's legs look like tree trunks, I'm not jumping on him at all. OC spray might've worked, but in those confines, everyone, including the user, would've been hit with the stuff.
In the 1890's, my great-grandfather would've stepped in with his sword cane and hobbled to S.O.B. Alas, such things will get you arrested in most cities today.
chris in va
New member
And thanks to the movie "Misery" we all know what hobbling is...
Unique 5.7
New member
Mannlicher - Very good, thoughtful post. The problem with a lot of incidents of this nature is it is hard to determine where somebody's stopping point and starting points are. Hitting somebody in the head makes me assume there is clear intent to inflict serious injuries and there is a significant risk of death, intended or not by the perp. The shooting of another person, no matter how justifiable, can have serious psychological consequences to one's self.
I agree with a few who said their blood was boiling. I am a retired police officer with 2 years local, and 10 years federal service. I was injured in the line of duty, but that is not a factor, day to day.
Last November, I contracted Guillian-Berre Syndrome...it is a neuromuscular disease that shuts down your central nervous system, and thought it is 100% treatable and curable...it is a 6-12 month process before you are fully "back". I am recovering, and only using a cane for walking, unless I go to a Big Box Store...I use a rented power scooter type chair.
Okay, I add this as background, because my reaction right at this minute would HAVE to be different than when I am running on all cylinders. Know, that I also carry a handgun daily, as I have for 20 years.
I am 6'4" normally weigh in at 375lbs. I am normally very strong, and have years of defensive tactics training, ranging from holds, throws, boxing, and plain old fighting dirty...I was always a member of the "A HAND ON ME COSTS YOU A BROKEN BONE RIGHT NOW!" club while on the job.
When at full physical strength and ability and endurance, I'd have nad zero problem going toe to toe with the gorilla. As many have stated, he was big, strong, and could probably hit hard...but he was also slow, and untrained. He saw the victim as prey...he knew going in he could win. I am convinced that if the victim had stood his ground and acted like a wolf rather than a sheep, the gorilla would have "ghetto styled", run his mouth, and acted the part of a tough guy, and in the end, would have left running his mouth. I have seen it happen many many times. The victim cowed and turned his attention away from the gorilla, and that is when he was attacked.
Had I been there in my present state , I would have told the gorilla to stop, called 911, and placed my hand on my leather and lead sap which I carry in my back pocket. If the gorilla would have made a step toward me, I'd have knocked his brains loose. I know, I have seen me do it!
If I were at my normal level of strength...I would have called 911, told him to stop, and if he continued to beat the victim, I would forget waiting for him bring the fight to me...I'd simply skip to the part where I knock his brains loose with the sap.
I carry everywhere, everday...I don't leave home without my defensive handgun...but I don't see a justification for a non LEO to draw or shoot in this instance. But it would be a hard call to make,. armchair quarterbacking it. I can only say what I believe I would do, based upon my actions in the past.
Last November, I contracted Guillian-Berre Syndrome...it is a neuromuscular disease that shuts down your central nervous system, and thought it is 100% treatable and curable...it is a 6-12 month process before you are fully "back". I am recovering, and only using a cane for walking, unless I go to a Big Box Store...I use a rented power scooter type chair.
Okay, I add this as background, because my reaction right at this minute would HAVE to be different than when I am running on all cylinders. Know, that I also carry a handgun daily, as I have for 20 years.
I am 6'4" normally weigh in at 375lbs. I am normally very strong, and have years of defensive tactics training, ranging from holds, throws, boxing, and plain old fighting dirty...I was always a member of the "A HAND ON ME COSTS YOU A BROKEN BONE RIGHT NOW!" club while on the job.
When at full physical strength and ability and endurance, I'd have nad zero problem going toe to toe with the gorilla. As many have stated, he was big, strong, and could probably hit hard...but he was also slow, and untrained. He saw the victim as prey...he knew going in he could win. I am convinced that if the victim had stood his ground and acted like a wolf rather than a sheep, the gorilla would have "ghetto styled", run his mouth, and acted the part of a tough guy, and in the end, would have left running his mouth. I have seen it happen many many times. The victim cowed and turned his attention away from the gorilla, and that is when he was attacked.
Had I been there in my present state , I would have told the gorilla to stop, called 911, and placed my hand on my leather and lead sap which I carry in my back pocket. If the gorilla would have made a step toward me, I'd have knocked his brains loose. I know, I have seen me do it!
If I were at my normal level of strength...I would have called 911, told him to stop, and if he continued to beat the victim, I would forget waiting for him bring the fight to me...I'd simply skip to the part where I knock his brains loose with the sap.
I carry everywhere, everday...I don't leave home without my defensive handgun...but I don't see a justification for a non LEO to draw or shoot in this instance. But it would be a hard call to make,. armchair quarterbacking it. I can only say what I believe I would do, based upon my actions in the past.
Interesting set of thoughts here.
I have an interesting perspective on this as I *have* been attacked and pummeled in an attempt to rob me, while armed (I at the time didn't have a CCW, so was carrying a knife, Spyderco Chinnook to be specific). The attacker attacked me from behind (by wacking me over the head), and tried to wrestle my briefcase (secured across my body with a strap) from me, failing in that decided to 'rough me up' a bit.
I decided, given the situation, not to draw the blade, as I felt at the time my only option, given the poor tactical situation (me already down on the ground) would have been to try for a killing blow which was low percentage, or run a significant risk of having it taken away from me. I opted to protect my vitals, and, as we were in a fairly public place, hope it didn't last long.
This experience ended for me in a concussion, along with a 13 stitch gash in my scalp (from the initial attack, didn't see it, it was from behind, he used a board which he then dropped), and some bruised ribs, from being kicked etc.. once I was already down. By the time I was on my back, it was impossible for him to wrestle my briefcase away from me, as I fell on the strap, so I didn't even lose anything, except some blood and dignity.
This has been a huge motivating factor for me to take some self-defense courses, carry pepper spray at all times, and get a CCW.
However, in the situation, I still think it was right not to draw the knife. According to the police officer who interviewed me after if I had stabbed him, given he was 'unarmed', I would likely be looking at assault/murder myself. Any situation he could see that would have given me an opening tactically to use the knife, would have also given me the ability to disengage. I was actually complimented by the officer for my restraint (thanks sir! how bout a ride to the hospital?) I think that shooting an unarmed assailant would probably be looked on in a worse light.
This significantly underlined, to say the least, the drawbacks of a knife as a self-defense weapon. I strongly feel now that there are two classes of situation, those that pepper spray will handle (unarmed assailant), and those that I'd really like a gun on me, thank you (armed assailant).
Now that I have a CCW, I'd be very leery drawing on anyone unarmed, working on the reality this has pounded into my head, that you can't, even if you have it, draw a weapon unless you are completely prepared to use it, and to defend that decision and all of its consequenses.
I second and third those who recomend pepper spray in the situation, as well as yelling, or even wacking the guy over the head with something like a chair if you really feel the other person's life is in danger. I just think it is a bad time to go OK Corrall.
Oh, and also, trust me, it is a really good thing to watch your six! Learned that the hard way......
Just me $.02, probably worth even less. Interesting discussion, though.
I have an interesting perspective on this as I *have* been attacked and pummeled in an attempt to rob me, while armed (I at the time didn't have a CCW, so was carrying a knife, Spyderco Chinnook to be specific). The attacker attacked me from behind (by wacking me over the head), and tried to wrestle my briefcase (secured across my body with a strap) from me, failing in that decided to 'rough me up' a bit.
I decided, given the situation, not to draw the blade, as I felt at the time my only option, given the poor tactical situation (me already down on the ground) would have been to try for a killing blow which was low percentage, or run a significant risk of having it taken away from me. I opted to protect my vitals, and, as we were in a fairly public place, hope it didn't last long.
This experience ended for me in a concussion, along with a 13 stitch gash in my scalp (from the initial attack, didn't see it, it was from behind, he used a board which he then dropped), and some bruised ribs, from being kicked etc.. once I was already down. By the time I was on my back, it was impossible for him to wrestle my briefcase away from me, as I fell on the strap, so I didn't even lose anything, except some blood and dignity.
This has been a huge motivating factor for me to take some self-defense courses, carry pepper spray at all times, and get a CCW.
However, in the situation, I still think it was right not to draw the knife. According to the police officer who interviewed me after if I had stabbed him, given he was 'unarmed', I would likely be looking at assault/murder myself. Any situation he could see that would have given me an opening tactically to use the knife, would have also given me the ability to disengage. I was actually complimented by the officer for my restraint (thanks sir! how bout a ride to the hospital?) I think that shooting an unarmed assailant would probably be looked on in a worse light.
This significantly underlined, to say the least, the drawbacks of a knife as a self-defense weapon. I strongly feel now that there are two classes of situation, those that pepper spray will handle (unarmed assailant), and those that I'd really like a gun on me, thank you (armed assailant).
Now that I have a CCW, I'd be very leery drawing on anyone unarmed, working on the reality this has pounded into my head, that you can't, even if you have it, draw a weapon unless you are completely prepared to use it, and to defend that decision and all of its consequenses.
I second and third those who recomend pepper spray in the situation, as well as yelling, or even wacking the guy over the head with something like a chair if you really feel the other person's life is in danger. I just think it is a bad time to go OK Corrall.
Oh, and also, trust me, it is a really good thing to watch your six! Learned that the hard way......
Just me $.02, probably worth even less. Interesting discussion, though.