Would you get involved?
- Thread starter Metellus
- Start date
I read all of the postings before I watched the film. After watching the film, and not in hindsite, I'll tell you, I don't know! Maybe! If I was the same age as that guy in the white shirt who appears to be right on top of the action, I may have taken a punch from behind for no other reason than distract him, and hope that others would step in.
Or maybe a choke hold from behind, if he broke it then run like hell, if he chases me, he won't catch me and if he does, then I use my pistol.
Fact is I don't know, and in my opinion no one really does until things like that happen, and we're put to the test. Another fact is, I can't run anymore, so I don't know.
Or maybe a choke hold from behind, if he broke it then run like hell, if he chases me, he won't catch me and if he does, then I use my pistol.
Fact is I don't know, and in my opinion no one really does until things like that happen, and we're put to the test. Another fact is, I can't run anymore, so I don't know.
coworkers
Ironically a coworker of mine during lunch saw this video on cnn.com and a bunch of my coworkers ("CW") were returning from lunch and he them (3 women and 3 men).
Me: So would you be like the bystanders and do nothing?
CW: We'd call the police after the assailant left.
Me: Well what if the assailint decided to start stomping on the victim's head which could easily cause death.
CW: Well what if it was a robbery!
Me: Even more reason to help out if it was a clear cut robbery!
CW: I mean what if the guy was armed like with a gun!
Me: Then shoot him first.
CW: Not all of us want to carry a gun.
Me: Well who has pepperspray?
Turns out all the women had pepperspray but none of the men.
CW: But I'm not sure how to use it.
Me: You never even test fired your pepperspray how'd you know it'd work?
CW: Well I'd use it only in emergencies so never thought of testing it out.
Me: OK a big angry guy is beating to death an uncoscious innocent victim and you don't think that's an emergency?
CW: I just don't think any of us would know what to do so we'd just call the cops after the assailant left.
Me: Why after the assailant left?
CW [looks at me in disbelief]: So I won't get attacked while calling the cops of course!
Conclusion:
I was the only person other than my boss (who is an avid hunter and former wrestler) that seemed to agree that even if the innocent victim was being stomped to death the proper course of action is to wait until the bad guy is gone then call the cops.
My coworkers are a bunch of accountants, financial analysts, and lawyers professions which are not known for physical bravery but probably have the typical attitude of an average american.
No wonder terrorists who worked and schooled with average americans thought they could get away with scaring us out of our national interets. The average american will not fight for fellow americans. For thousands of years people have been responsible for their own physical safety yet today the average american relies on strangers who make $20k to $30k a year (cops and soldiers) for their own physical safety.
Talking to my coworkers was a disheartening experience.
The hard question are:
1) If you were innocent and being beat on would you want other people to help? If you answered yes but were unwilling to help then what does that say about you?
2) Sure you aren't GOD and you don't know all the details but what if you were an off duty cop? Would you draw to try to diffuse the situation? Cops don't know ALL the details either. Sure most of us aren't cops but why rely on cops in a situation that appears to you and most reasonable people that the innocent man's life is in danger. What you know at that time is what you will be judged on that after the fact. And at the time of the incident it appeared very likely that the victim was innocent and in danger of severe bodily injury.
Ironically a coworker of mine during lunch saw this video on cnn.com and a bunch of my coworkers ("CW") were returning from lunch and he them (3 women and 3 men).
Me: So would you be like the bystanders and do nothing?
CW: We'd call the police after the assailant left.
Me: Well what if the assailint decided to start stomping on the victim's head which could easily cause death.
CW: Well what if it was a robbery!
Me: Even more reason to help out if it was a clear cut robbery!
CW: I mean what if the guy was armed like with a gun!
Me: Then shoot him first.
CW: Not all of us want to carry a gun.
Me: Well who has pepperspray?
Turns out all the women had pepperspray but none of the men.
CW: But I'm not sure how to use it.
Me: You never even test fired your pepperspray how'd you know it'd work?
CW: Well I'd use it only in emergencies so never thought of testing it out.
Me: OK a big angry guy is beating to death an uncoscious innocent victim and you don't think that's an emergency?
CW: I just don't think any of us would know what to do so we'd just call the cops after the assailant left.
Me: Why after the assailant left?
CW [looks at me in disbelief]: So I won't get attacked while calling the cops of course!
Conclusion:
I was the only person other than my boss (who is an avid hunter and former wrestler) that seemed to agree that even if the innocent victim was being stomped to death the proper course of action is to wait until the bad guy is gone then call the cops.
My coworkers are a bunch of accountants, financial analysts, and lawyers professions which are not known for physical bravery but probably have the typical attitude of an average american.
No wonder terrorists who worked and schooled with average americans thought they could get away with scaring us out of our national interets. The average american will not fight for fellow americans. For thousands of years people have been responsible for their own physical safety yet today the average american relies on strangers who make $20k to $30k a year (cops and soldiers) for their own physical safety.
Talking to my coworkers was a disheartening experience.
The hard question are:
1) If you were innocent and being beat on would you want other people to help? If you answered yes but were unwilling to help then what does that say about you?
2) Sure you aren't GOD and you don't know all the details but what if you were an off duty cop? Would you draw to try to diffuse the situation? Cops don't know ALL the details either. Sure most of us aren't cops but why rely on cops in a situation that appears to you and most reasonable people that the innocent man's life is in danger. What you know at that time is what you will be judged on that after the fact. And at the time of the incident it appeared very likely that the victim was innocent and in danger of severe bodily injury.
hey guys what about bonnie ?
Howdy,
While I have no doubt that a lot of people would have interveined with little to no hesitation, most people would have still stood there in awe. Most people do not have the training or expirence to deal with that type of situation. Unfortunately we also live in a society where defending yourself can get you in a whole lot of legal trouble as well. Picture this: when the cops arrive on this situation and maybe they witness 4 or 5 white guys fighting 1 black guy, there's a good chance that everyone involved ends up spending the night in jail. In my heart I believe most people want to do the right thing, but how many people are willing to go to jail or deal with the legal drama over the principle. From my own example if I were to go to jail there's a STRONG possibility of me losing my job i.e.( my family's source of income). Is it worth the risk?
Another thing to consider let's assume that you were able to draw on and stop the BG,( lets call him Clyde). While you are focused on Clyde and the victim, the person whom started the whole incident (call her Bonnie) has now drawn on and fired upon you. I think everone that has posted on this thread would agree that Bonnie would definately start a whole lot of $hit if someone were messing with "her man" or "her baby's daddy".
I totally applaud and respect those that posted they could not stand by and watch the victim get beat without doing something. I just feel that in the 20 or 30 seconds the actual event took place, most people are incapable of formulating and executing a plan that went beyond dialling 911 on the phone.
Howdy,
While I have no doubt that a lot of people would have interveined with little to no hesitation, most people would have still stood there in awe. Most people do not have the training or expirence to deal with that type of situation. Unfortunately we also live in a society where defending yourself can get you in a whole lot of legal trouble as well. Picture this: when the cops arrive on this situation and maybe they witness 4 or 5 white guys fighting 1 black guy, there's a good chance that everyone involved ends up spending the night in jail. In my heart I believe most people want to do the right thing, but how many people are willing to go to jail or deal with the legal drama over the principle. From my own example if I were to go to jail there's a STRONG possibility of me losing my job i.e.( my family's source of income). Is it worth the risk?
Another thing to consider let's assume that you were able to draw on and stop the BG,( lets call him Clyde). While you are focused on Clyde and the victim, the person whom started the whole incident (call her Bonnie) has now drawn on and fired upon you. I think everone that has posted on this thread would agree that Bonnie would definately start a whole lot of $hit if someone were messing with "her man" or "her baby's daddy".
I totally applaud and respect those that posted they could not stand by and watch the victim get beat without doing something. I just feel that in the 20 or 30 seconds the actual event took place, most people are incapable of formulating and executing a plan that went beyond dialling 911 on the phone.
zulustyle said:
That is very true. The event did not last more than 30 seconds. How long would it take to think this through. 1. You need to realize that someone is getting beaten. 2. You need to realize that the man's life is then in danger. 3. Then you need to decide if you should use your gun and then when you do decide, will you warn him or shoot immediately. Not to mention, he was moving around quite a bit, would you even have a shot? 4. You choose not to use the gun, you begin to wrestle with the guy. Hope he doesn't see the gun or get ahold of it.
Lots of things to think about. Hell, you could finally make a choice of how to help and the guy is already leaving.
There was another thread about this somewhere, but I'll say it here too.
No matter how big you are, or how big he is, someone should have done something. I don't care if I ended up getting beat like the guy. I am a man, and I will not stand idly by and watch someones life be potentialy taken.
Could I even live with myself if I had stood there like a coward and done nothing? This nation has turned into a bunch of pacifistic panseys. When I was growing up, you did what you could to avoid trouble, but as men and american citizens we should have enough guts to do what is right, damn the consequences. It makes me want to puke to see those people stand there and watch that. Its discusting. Its deplorable. Its just plain sick.
I remember a somewhat similar situation when I has 13-14 years old. Me and a buddy were fishing. Two bigger guys, about 16-17 came down, and started getting stupid. Told us to give them all our fishing stuff or they were gonna drown us or something. Of course, I refused, and they came towards me. I whipped the crap out of one of them with my fishing pole. (God I still hope it hurt) and then proceeded to get the ever loving crap kicked out of me. They beat me for what seemed like forever, busted me up real good, then took all our stuff and left. My buddy just stood there (like those people in the pizza place) the WHOLE TIME. Well, needless to say, when I finally got gathered up and to my feet, when he came over to ask if I was okay, I blasted him in the mouth with all my might, for being such a stupid sissy and not helping me.....
No matter how big you are, or how big he is, someone should have done something. I don't care if I ended up getting beat like the guy. I am a man, and I will not stand idly by and watch someones life be potentialy taken.
Could I even live with myself if I had stood there like a coward and done nothing? This nation has turned into a bunch of pacifistic panseys. When I was growing up, you did what you could to avoid trouble, but as men and american citizens we should have enough guts to do what is right, damn the consequences. It makes me want to puke to see those people stand there and watch that. Its discusting. Its deplorable. Its just plain sick.
I remember a somewhat similar situation when I has 13-14 years old. Me and a buddy were fishing. Two bigger guys, about 16-17 came down, and started getting stupid. Told us to give them all our fishing stuff or they were gonna drown us or something. Of course, I refused, and they came towards me. I whipped the crap out of one of them with my fishing pole. (God I still hope it hurt) and then proceeded to get the ever loving crap kicked out of me. They beat me for what seemed like forever, busted me up real good, then took all our stuff and left. My buddy just stood there (like those people in the pizza place) the WHOLE TIME. Well, needless to say, when I finally got gathered up and to my feet, when he came over to ask if I was okay, I blasted him in the mouth with all my might, for being such a stupid sissy and not helping me.....
vaportrail
Inactive
Wow, that video is unbelievable, it's hard to say what you could do when things happen that fast, but I always carry a little West German spring type telescoping police baton in my back pocket when I am legally carrying my Glock 33, just in case of a situation where deadly force isn't called for but I have the need to defend myself. I think if I was quick enough, that big fellow would have been picking his teeth off the floor and had a few lacerations to be stitched up, not to mention welts all over his massive body.
Just a thought. I don't know how other states CCW laws are, but here in FL, its a CCW (concealed carry weapon permit), so you can carry an asp, etc legally. I would carry a gun, but I would also carry an asp. Just hit him really good on his knee, and it will shatter, that guy wont be up and movin any more. If he kept at it, just take more easy shots. You may not think that an ASP is a great weapon, but it gives you an alternative to shooting someone (which in the PR world looks bad, even if its a good shoot). Hell, if you felt like it, knock him upside the head (will cause death/unconciousness) if you don't feel comfortable with a different take down. Using one of those also won't introduce a firearm into the equation, which would be good. Some people are immune to the effects of mace, but not to broken bones, they all act the same. ASP's (extendable baton) are vicious little buggars, but I think worth heir weight in gold in certian situations (close combat v. distance)
Howdy
D. T. I respect your opinion and do not doubt your sincerity. However consider this : lets say you have'nt been in a fight in over 10 years, this thug ape probally fights often and he is not alone. Would you be willing to walk into a situation that you can't win. Rest assured the second you jumped on this guy regardless of your fighting abilities or size this guy ain't alone, actually he has someone who cares for him which REALLY works to his advantage and makes the situation even more dangerous.
I think the responses to this thread would have been different if the victim was a spouse,child or friend and you were there with them. I think the responses would have been diffrent if a person was there with 3 or 4 of their friends,co-workers, or brothers/sisters in arms. Keep in mind that after the first punch from the BG the victim could not defend himself much less help you out when you jumped in. I feel that my response at the age of 25 vice 35 would have been different as well.
I am fully aware of the right and wrong of this situation,however right and wrong compared to the consequences of me being laid out, f'd-up,killed, or incarserated when I am the sole provider of my family weigh HEAVILY on my reaction to the situation.... that's a lot to consider in 30 seconds.
D. T. I respect your opinion and do not doubt your sincerity. However consider this : lets say you have'nt been in a fight in over 10 years, this thug ape probally fights often and he is not alone. Would you be willing to walk into a situation that you can't win. Rest assured the second you jumped on this guy regardless of your fighting abilities or size this guy ain't alone, actually he has someone who cares for him which REALLY works to his advantage and makes the situation even more dangerous.
I think the responses to this thread would have been different if the victim was a spouse,child or friend and you were there with them. I think the responses would have been diffrent if a person was there with 3 or 4 of their friends,co-workers, or brothers/sisters in arms. Keep in mind that after the first punch from the BG the victim could not defend himself much less help you out when you jumped in. I feel that my response at the age of 25 vice 35 would have been different as well.
I am fully aware of the right and wrong of this situation,however right and wrong compared to the consequences of me being laid out, f'd-up,killed, or incarserated when I am the sole provider of my family weigh HEAVILY on my reaction to the situation.... that's a lot to consider in 30 seconds.
snacktrack
New member
I do want to point something out...
THis guy did nothing to protect his own self. He wasnt knocked out on the first few punches. He did not try and fight back AT ALL. He did nothing. I could see if he was knocked out on the first punch. He should at least tried to run. He just stood there and let the guy hit him.
Now if he had no will to fight for his own self, how can he sit there and say..."All those people there, and they did nothing"
If he had been standing in a different spot he would have been one of those sheep not doing a damn thing.
Even though Im not a big guy I would punch and kick as hard as I could at his throat, genitals, and try and run. THis guy should be pissed at himself for not being prepared.
THis guy did nothing to protect his own self. He wasnt knocked out on the first few punches. He did not try and fight back AT ALL. He did nothing. I could see if he was knocked out on the first punch. He should at least tried to run. He just stood there and let the guy hit him.
Now if he had no will to fight for his own self, how can he sit there and say..."All those people there, and they did nothing"
If he had been standing in a different spot he would have been one of those sheep not doing a damn thing.
Even though Im not a big guy I would punch and kick as hard as I could at his throat, genitals, and try and run. THis guy should be pissed at himself for not being prepared.
snacktrack, watch the video again. He actually goes for the door to run after the first punch but was hit again.
Have you ever been punch that hard before? I have been punch by a middle weight boxer when I was 17 years old. I must have "looked at him wrong" and he came over when I wasn't looking and punched me. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I learned why it hurt so bad. I was seeing stars and not thinking straight. Fight back? I couldn't see anything, let alone know where to swing. Took a good minute before I could see straight. Yes, it was at a Taco Bell, full of people staring at me. The worst thing was I was with two of my best friends who did nothing too.
Have you ever been punch that hard before? I have been punch by a middle weight boxer when I was 17 years old. I must have "looked at him wrong" and he came over when I wasn't looking and punched me. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I learned why it hurt so bad. I was seeing stars and not thinking straight. Fight back? I couldn't see anything, let alone know where to swing. Took a good minute before I could see straight. Yes, it was at a Taco Bell, full of people staring at me. The worst thing was I was with two of my best friends who did nothing too.
snacktrack
New member
yes i did.
you watch it again. First of all, it wasnt a sucker punch. He confronts him, and if you atch closely, he looks down to take the ear piece out of his ear for his cell phone. THe second he looks down, he gets hit. Why would the HELL would you look away if someone is about to punch you?
He is not incapacitated. He starts getting back up several times afer being hit. He could have punched back, he didnt.
I know my comments are kind of callous, but watch the video again. You have to be able to fight back. He did not fight back AT ALL. So he could not expected others to do what he was a coward to do himself.
I do believe peole should have gotten involved, but obviously nobody was prepared or thought they could have diffused the situation. I think OC spray would have been a perfect for this situation, and when he grabbed his eyes, I would have hit him with a chair. Im sorry but I would not have swung at the guy. I would have defended myself, but I am not putting my life in danger foolishly.
you watch it again. First of all, it wasnt a sucker punch. He confronts him, and if you atch closely, he looks down to take the ear piece out of his ear for his cell phone. THe second he looks down, he gets hit. Why would the HELL would you look away if someone is about to punch you?
He is not incapacitated. He starts getting back up several times afer being hit. He could have punched back, he didnt.
I know my comments are kind of callous, but watch the video again. You have to be able to fight back. He did not fight back AT ALL. So he could not expected others to do what he was a coward to do himself.
I do believe peole should have gotten involved, but obviously nobody was prepared or thought they could have diffused the situation. I think OC spray would have been a perfect for this situation, and when he grabbed his eyes, I would have hit him with a chair. Im sorry but I would not have swung at the guy. I would have defended myself, but I am not putting my life in danger foolishly.
Howdy,
Snacktrack ,personally I think after the victim was hit the first time he was nothing more than walking wounded. While he may have not been knocked out he was knocked senseless. Keep in mind he was sucker punched. I have witnessed many fights growing up and in the service, often times the fight was won by that all important first punch. It's really hard to defend yourself when you are dazzed. While from a legal standpoint I would probally be in the wrong, if I HAD to engage a bigger and stronger opponent I would defnately get the first punch in.
Also this was'nt a fight, this was a beat-down pure and simple.
Snacktrack ,personally I think after the victim was hit the first time he was nothing more than walking wounded. While he may have not been knocked out he was knocked senseless. Keep in mind he was sucker punched. I have witnessed many fights growing up and in the service, often times the fight was won by that all important first punch. It's really hard to defend yourself when you are dazzed. While from a legal standpoint I would probally be in the wrong, if I HAD to engage a bigger and stronger opponent I would defnately get the first punch in.
Also this was'nt a fight, this was a beat-down pure and simple.
snacktrack
New member
Hey Zulu,
Yeah I think maybe he couldnt think straight, only he could honestly answer that. His big mistake was being submissive and looking down. You are right that first hit is what did him in, cause from that point he felt helpless. He turned a fight into a beatdown by not being prepared for that first punch and looking away.
Being a smaller guy, I would have to get the first punch in to be able to win a fight, which I have done many times. I am not in the business of proving myself anymore against opponents. I have been very lucky. I have only had a true sucker punch once, and I wasnt hurt at all.
I dont know, this guy really made alot of mistakes. By no means did he deserve what happened, and animals like this make me sick. I deal with people like this everyday at my work. Drug dealers, etc etc. I stand up to them, I dont let them think they are intimidating me, and I ALWAYS watch their hands and be aware of the situation at all times. I have had several times where I have had animals like this try to start a fight and I told them to get the f*ck out, even though they could have won the fight. But I have the advantage of being at work in my own element. On the street is a different story.
Yeah I think maybe he couldnt think straight, only he could honestly answer that. His big mistake was being submissive and looking down. You are right that first hit is what did him in, cause from that point he felt helpless. He turned a fight into a beatdown by not being prepared for that first punch and looking away.
Being a smaller guy, I would have to get the first punch in to be able to win a fight, which I have done many times. I am not in the business of proving myself anymore against opponents. I have been very lucky. I have only had a true sucker punch once, and I wasnt hurt at all.
I dont know, this guy really made alot of mistakes. By no means did he deserve what happened, and animals like this make me sick. I deal with people like this everyday at my work. Drug dealers, etc etc. I stand up to them, I dont let them think they are intimidating me, and I ALWAYS watch their hands and be aware of the situation at all times. I have had several times where I have had animals like this try to start a fight and I told them to get the f*ck out, even though they could have won the fight. But I have the advantage of being at work in my own element. On the street is a different story.
Howdy,
Snacktrack you are absolutley correct in the fact that the victim had a total lack of situational awareness. As soon as "Bonnie" started causing a scene EVERY customer in the resturant should have been on guard. As soon as "Clyde" approached him in an agressive manner he should have either ran or taken a defensive stance(personally I would'nt have faulted him for either).
It's kinda of Ironic but as in driving sometimes it is necessary get of the freaking phone and pay attention.
I don't know that if the guy had been watching his P's & Q's if it would have made a differece but he would have had a better chance.
Keep in mind we currently live in a society where a 7th grader can get suspended for 10 days for having a rubberband (Drudge report headline as of now). It's little wonder as to why people fail in the abilty to recognize and react to a truly violent situation
Snacktrack you are absolutley correct in the fact that the victim had a total lack of situational awareness. As soon as "Bonnie" started causing a scene EVERY customer in the resturant should have been on guard. As soon as "Clyde" approached him in an agressive manner he should have either ran or taken a defensive stance(personally I would'nt have faulted him for either).
It's kinda of Ironic but as in driving sometimes it is necessary get of the freaking phone and pay attention.
I don't know that if the guy had been watching his P's & Q's if it would have made a differece but he would have had a better chance.
Keep in mind we currently live in a society where a 7th grader can get suspended for 10 days for having a rubberband (Drudge report headline as of now). It's little wonder as to why people fail in the abilty to recognize and react to a truly violent situation
kennybs plbg
New member
pulling a firearm would have never been a option, going in throwing fists wouldn't either until he attacked you. the guy needed to be stopped and tied up at that point. jump on his back tie up an arm etc. no one even tried. Its sad. People say they needed time to think, in my opinion a real man would have just acted on instinct.
kenny b
kenny b
Howdy,
OK I'll bite, what is your definition of a real man ?
Part of instinct is knowing when to fight or when to run. Its pretty instinctive to avoid dangerous situations all together. Its pretty instinctive to protect your family,friends, and children. It is just as easy to argue that to attack a bigger stronger advesary goes against instinct. A "real man's" instinct could have easily made him extinct with 2 thugs to worry about.
OK I'll bite, what is your definition of a real man ?
Part of instinct is knowing when to fight or when to run. Its pretty instinctive to avoid dangerous situations all together. Its pretty instinctive to protect your family,friends, and children. It is just as easy to argue that to attack a bigger stronger advesary goes against instinct. A "real man's" instinct could have easily made him extinct with 2 thugs to worry about.
OC/CN spray..
There was another thread about OC/CN spray of being useless if you carry a handgun. Logic was that the only times you could jusitfy using OC/CN was the same as handguns therefore just use the handgun.
This situation is a perfect example of when escalation of force would be a useful tactic for civilians as much as it is for cops. It is not like the man suddenly out of the blue started hitting the man with no warning. When the woman starts screaming and spitting I think most of us in here would start putting the OC/CN in palm, stepping back from the entrance to create space, getting ready to draw a handgun, and scope out a possible exit. She's yelling for like 25 seconds before her boyfriend showed up. And her boyfriend is yelling at the man for 5 seconds before he actually hits the victim.
So you got 30 seconds to PREPARE if you were a bystander and properly equipped. And once the BG started throwing his fists out comes the OC/CN in the left hand. Most likely that would have ended it. If OC fails and the BG starts rushing you and you have no way to escape then time to shoot. In court you just need to convince 1/12 of the jury that you used proper escalation of force to prevent serious injury to the victim and if it escalated to the point where you can not get away and you fear for your life then shooting is appropriate.
I think the stupid thing about mr. cellphone is that he was being yelled at by a crazed woman for 25 seconds yet he kept yapping on the phone and when the BG came in he was still yapping on the phone for another 5 seconds. Where the heck was that man's warning system? Woman or not if anyone is going to start cussing me out i'd drop that phone get out the OC/CN, back away, and have my hand on the gun ready to draw.
Unlike how most people characterized this incident it really started 30 seconds BEFORE the first punch was ever thrown. That's plenty of time to PREPARE to react. And once your warning flags go up time slows down. You got the flight or fight gearing up and so the next 10 seconds would seem like minutes to you.
Or at least that's how it is supposed to work in fully functional living organisms. Most "civilized" people have lost that survival instinct.
There was another thread about OC/CN spray of being useless if you carry a handgun. Logic was that the only times you could jusitfy using OC/CN was the same as handguns therefore just use the handgun.
This situation is a perfect example of when escalation of force would be a useful tactic for civilians as much as it is for cops. It is not like the man suddenly out of the blue started hitting the man with no warning. When the woman starts screaming and spitting I think most of us in here would start putting the OC/CN in palm, stepping back from the entrance to create space, getting ready to draw a handgun, and scope out a possible exit. She's yelling for like 25 seconds before her boyfriend showed up. And her boyfriend is yelling at the man for 5 seconds before he actually hits the victim.
So you got 30 seconds to PREPARE if you were a bystander and properly equipped. And once the BG started throwing his fists out comes the OC/CN in the left hand. Most likely that would have ended it. If OC fails and the BG starts rushing you and you have no way to escape then time to shoot. In court you just need to convince 1/12 of the jury that you used proper escalation of force to prevent serious injury to the victim and if it escalated to the point where you can not get away and you fear for your life then shooting is appropriate.
I think the stupid thing about mr. cellphone is that he was being yelled at by a crazed woman for 25 seconds yet he kept yapping on the phone and when the BG came in he was still yapping on the phone for another 5 seconds. Where the heck was that man's warning system? Woman or not if anyone is going to start cussing me out i'd drop that phone get out the OC/CN, back away, and have my hand on the gun ready to draw.
Unlike how most people characterized this incident it really started 30 seconds BEFORE the first punch was ever thrown. That's plenty of time to PREPARE to react. And once your warning flags go up time slows down. You got the flight or fight gearing up and so the next 10 seconds would seem like minutes to you.
Or at least that's how it is supposed to work in fully functional living organisms. Most "civilized" people have lost that survival instinct.
WaltherP99
New member
I don't think ANYONE would have fought back right away after taking a first punch like that! That man KNEW how to fight (hence throwing ALL of his body weight into that punch). He did attempt to leave the store after the first punch was thrown.
Your are right! That was a KNOCKOUT punch! I am not putting anyone down or anything, but I think every last one of us would have been dazed enough after that first punch NOT to do anything!
seeker_two
New member
If I were in that restaurant & carrying my CCW, I absolutely WOULD draw....
1. Attacker has shown ability & willingness to harm persons in that restaurant. (what indicates he'd stop at that guy?)
2. Attacker's physical size & fighting ability prove disparity of force, allowing for a CCW to be used.
3. CCW carriers can use their weapons when threatened w/ deadly force (see 1 & 2.)
I would draw my CCW and verbally order ALL THREE (including the mouthy b**** ) on the floor until police arrive to sort out the mess. If the attacker advances on me, I'm shooting (see above). And I absolutely would NOT engage in any hand-to-hand combat w/ any of them while carrying--if they want my gun, they can have it one bullet at a time....
1. Attacker has shown ability & willingness to harm persons in that restaurant. (what indicates he'd stop at that guy?)
2. Attacker's physical size & fighting ability prove disparity of force, allowing for a CCW to be used.
3. CCW carriers can use their weapons when threatened w/ deadly force (see 1 & 2.)
I would draw my CCW and verbally order ALL THREE (including the mouthy b**** ) on the floor until police arrive to sort out the mess. If the attacker advances on me, I'm shooting (see above). And I absolutely would NOT engage in any hand-to-hand combat w/ any of them while carrying--if they want my gun, they can have it one bullet at a time....