After the 1st punch, I would have been on the guy that was throwing punches. I have been in similar situations before, and I refuse to just stand there and watch someone take a beating like that. I am all of 5'11" and 180 lbs(solid muscular build). The big guy outweighed me by a good bit, but to just stand there and watch is assanine and intolerable. Shooting him is one thing, getting physically involved in another. I feel confident that I could hold my own in a situation like this, and If I couldn't, then I would hope that there were more people like myself standing around. The same principle of invoked fear applies here as did on the planes that hit the Twin Towers. Few aggressors can keep many locked into a passive state by the invocation of fear. People tend to have the mindset of "at least it isn't me", when in reality it is. It is that mindframe that perpetuates and feeds this aggressive behavior.
Would you get involved?
- Thread starter Metellus
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1911SFOREVER
New member
Rule 5.3
1) I would have gotten involved.
2) I carry 2oz of Fox 5.3. In that environment, everyone would have gotten contaminated, but that attack had to be stopped. He could have easily killed that guy.
3) If the OC didn't stop him, and that guy is a moose and probably a hardened career criminal who was certainly in a rage, then it probably would have gone to extreme close quarters and a blade. There were too many people around and that situation was too fluid to go to guns.
1) I would have gotten involved.
2) I carry 2oz of Fox 5.3. In that environment, everyone would have gotten contaminated, but that attack had to be stopped. He could have easily killed that guy.
3) If the OC didn't stop him, and that guy is a moose and probably a hardened career criminal who was certainly in a rage, then it probably would have gone to extreme close quarters and a blade. There were too many people around and that situation was too fluid to go to guns.
progunner1957
Moderator
As Jeff Snyder said, "A nation of cowards."
It is obvious from the way the victim's head flies back from the force of the first punch that all the subsequent punches are fully capable of maiming or killing him. It is also obvious that the attacker is in a blind rage, waaaay beyond being reasoned with.
If I were there, I would have yelled "STOP!" one time and then went for the attacker's eyes with my pepper spray, which would be in my left hand; my SIG P220 would have been in my right hand, just in case. If he dropped and started screaming, would have high-tailed it out of there. I'm sure that his "woman" would have to be sprayed too, given her belligierent attitude.
That having been said, I would have probably been the one under attack - when the "woman" cut in line, I would have politely buy firmly informed her that the line begins to the rear and that she needs to wait her turn like everyone else.
It is disgustingly evident from watching the video that our culture has produced a herd of impotent, neutered, no-load sheeple wearing pants and masquerading as men. The males in the video do not have the will or the means to stop the thug from beating the victim half to death.
I am not advocating going toe-to toe with someone who can kill you with his bare hands; I am advocating being always armed so that when faced with such a situation, you can do something about it. And I'm advocating alwats carrying pepper spray as well as your defensive handgun so that you have an intermediate option before bringing to bear deadly force.
Also, the 400+ pound thug is a ringing endorsement of carrying a BIG BORE defensive arm; I would not want to fire on that behemoth with anything smaller than .45ACP, 10mm, or .45 "Long" Colt or .44 Special +P!! Little guns are okay for little thugs, but we don't get to choose our attackers!
It is obvious from the way the victim's head flies back from the force of the first punch that all the subsequent punches are fully capable of maiming or killing him. It is also obvious that the attacker is in a blind rage, waaaay beyond being reasoned with.
If I were there, I would have yelled "STOP!" one time and then went for the attacker's eyes with my pepper spray, which would be in my left hand; my SIG P220 would have been in my right hand, just in case. If he dropped and started screaming, would have high-tailed it out of there. I'm sure that his "woman" would have to be sprayed too, given her belligierent attitude.
That having been said, I would have probably been the one under attack - when the "woman" cut in line, I would have politely buy firmly informed her that the line begins to the rear and that she needs to wait her turn like everyone else.
It is disgustingly evident from watching the video that our culture has produced a herd of impotent, neutered, no-load sheeple wearing pants and masquerading as men. The males in the video do not have the will or the means to stop the thug from beating the victim half to death.
I am not advocating going toe-to toe with someone who can kill you with his bare hands; I am advocating being always armed so that when faced with such a situation, you can do something about it. And I'm advocating alwats carrying pepper spray as well as your defensive handgun so that you have an intermediate option before bringing to bear deadly force.
Also, the 400+ pound thug is a ringing endorsement of carrying a BIG BORE defensive arm; I would not want to fire on that behemoth with anything smaller than .45ACP, 10mm, or .45 "Long" Colt or .44 Special +P!! Little guns are okay for little thugs, but we don't get to choose our attackers!
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Aside from pepper spray, there's also the intermediate option of threatening deadly force. I'm sure we all know that 98% of successful defensive gun uses don't involve actually firing the gun or killing the attacker.
And deadly defensive force was certainly justified in this case, as others have observed. It was obvious that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm at the very least, if not death.
And deadly defensive force was certainly justified in this case, as others have observed. It was obvious that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm at the very least, if not death.
1911SFOREVER
New member
That guy is a career criminal that was on a beat down rampage. He wouldn't have hesitated long enough to consider a threat, provided that he heard/saw it.
snacktrack
New member
I think that it sucks that you have to know as much as an attorney before you can act on something like this...
Hmm, hold on while I ponder this area's laws, and then let me make a decision.
No doubt everyone on here knows that its the right thing to get involved. But what if this animal didnt stop punching and you did shoot him?
IS the guy who you are saving going to pay your 40,000 attorney bill, pay for your lost wages, take back all the time spent at trial, not to mention if you are found guilty.
I think all those guys were thinking, man that guy is going to do the same thing to me if I get involved. Yeah we all have firearms that could potentially diffuse a situation like this, but all these guy didnt. Yes if they had all joined together, they could have easily beaten that guy down. But that guy came from outside out of nowhere, who is to say all his friends arent outside.
If I was a big guy and didnt think a punch from him would do much to me, I definitely would have jumped in, unfortunately Im not a big guy like that. Neither were any of the other guys in there.
The good thing is, most of you guys have some pretty good ideas and have thought this scenario through, so that IF we had been one of those bystanders, we could do what we think is the smartest. Obviosuly most people dont prepare for these sorts of encounters.
Hmm, hold on while I ponder this area's laws, and then let me make a decision.
No doubt everyone on here knows that its the right thing to get involved. But what if this animal didnt stop punching and you did shoot him?
IS the guy who you are saving going to pay your 40,000 attorney bill, pay for your lost wages, take back all the time spent at trial, not to mention if you are found guilty.
I think all those guys were thinking, man that guy is going to do the same thing to me if I get involved. Yeah we all have firearms that could potentially diffuse a situation like this, but all these guy didnt. Yes if they had all joined together, they could have easily beaten that guy down. But that guy came from outside out of nowhere, who is to say all his friends arent outside.
If I was a big guy and didnt think a punch from him would do much to me, I definitely would have jumped in, unfortunately Im not a big guy like that. Neither were any of the other guys in there.
The good thing is, most of you guys have some pretty good ideas and have thought this scenario through, so that IF we had been one of those bystanders, we could do what we think is the smartest. Obviosuly most people dont prepare for these sorts of encounters.
NSO_w/_SIG
New member
I don't care how big he is
I would have to help that guy out. Hopefully others would follow my lead because although I feel I can handle myself I don't want to take on Shug Knight. I just really getted pissed seeing this,....... working at places like that as a teenager I came to have very little tolerance for rude, arogant people and I've seen situations like this arise before, although not this bad.
At one of my jobs women just like that one there have come in a started demanding stuff and cursing in front of other customers and children, sometimes there own. I don't know how it is where the rest of you live but living relatively close to D.C., I am fed up with having to deal with this kind of stuff. I don't put up with any sh** like that, like some others around here do, I refuse to let em walk all over me.
I would have to help that guy out. Hopefully others would follow my lead because although I feel I can handle myself I don't want to take on Shug Knight. I just really getted pissed seeing this,....... working at places like that as a teenager I came to have very little tolerance for rude, arogant people and I've seen situations like this arise before, although not this bad.
At one of my jobs women just like that one there have come in a started demanding stuff and cursing in front of other customers and children, sometimes there own. I don't know how it is where the rest of you live but living relatively close to D.C., I am fed up with having to deal with this kind of stuff. I don't put up with any sh** like that, like some others around here do, I refuse to let em walk all over me.
Here is the almighty question. If it was YOU getting beaten, would you want someone to help? If your answer to that question is yes, and you would still be one of the people standing there watching, then I think it's sad. Lethal force would not have been my option at this point, but I sure would have put my butt on the line to try and help someone that would possibly have their life taken. I believe that all the firefighters, police officers, and military personel would agree with that. But then again, sacrifice is nothing new to these people, and we all take it for granted, just like those pitiful people watching another human being take blow after blow to his face and get dragged around on the floor. Pitiful.
Standing around watching makes you just as helpless as the guy getting beaten, and when you're helpless, you may as well be the next victim.
Standing around watching makes you just as helpless as the guy getting beaten, and when you're helpless, you may as well be the next victim.
I just watched this on a powerlifting forum that I visit, We all agreed that 90% of people would not have intervened. Society is weak, even in large numbers.
Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit. Maybe a TFSP or some sort of Glazer type round would have been best in that situation, maybe even a low velocity ball ammo. But, who carries those other than gangstas and troops in war?
That guy is def bigger than me. I know for a fact that I would have intervenedm, as I have done it in the past. But, if I would have jumped in and no one else, I may have been beaten pretty badly too.
Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit. Maybe a TFSP or some sort of Glazer type round would have been best in that situation, maybe even a low velocity ball ammo. But, who carries those other than gangstas and troops in war?
That guy is def bigger than me. I know for a fact that I would have intervenedm, as I have done it in the past. But, if I would have jumped in and no one else, I may have been beaten pretty badly too.
Getting beaten is a risk I am willing to take versus having to try to sleep at night knowing that watched a man take the brunt of this violent assault. I am not a cow in a herd watching us get slaughtered 1 by 1.
Oh, and I am in no way a Michael Moore fan, in fact I detest his work, but in reference to the question from "Bowling for Colombine" on why America has more violent crimes and homicides than the rest of the world, It may be worth considering our attitude of indifference.
Oh, and I am in no way a Michael Moore fan, in fact I detest his work, but in reference to the question from "Bowling for Colombine" on why America has more violent crimes and homicides than the rest of the world, It may be worth considering our attitude of indifference.
Quoting Bartlett: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Sure doing something can lead to many bad things, getting beaten up for your efforts, a lawsuit or two, etc.
But its the right thing to do. And doing the right thing is not always the easy way out.
Sure doing something can lead to many bad things, getting beaten up for your efforts, a lawsuit or two, etc.
But its the right thing to do. And doing the right thing is not always the easy way out.
Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit.
Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired.
All it might have taken to save the victim six vicious and potentially deadly blows to the head could have been a draw, sight alignment, and a very loud "DON'T MOVE!!!"
As for hitting other people in the shop, you'd like to think that the cows standing around chewing their cud while this beating was going on would be smart enough to hit the deck when the Glock 30 cleared leather, but in any case it would be incumbent on the armed defender to ensure a clear backstop if at all possible. Perhaps dropping to a knee for an upward trajectory?
It seems to me that after the first blow, given the disparity of force evident in the situation, that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm or death, and that's the criteria for use of deadly defensive force.
Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired.
All it might have taken to save the victim six vicious and potentially deadly blows to the head could have been a draw, sight alignment, and a very loud "DON'T MOVE!!!"
As for hitting other people in the shop, you'd like to think that the cows standing around chewing their cud while this beating was going on would be smart enough to hit the deck when the Glock 30 cleared leather, but in any case it would be incumbent on the armed defender to ensure a clear backstop if at all possible. Perhaps dropping to a knee for an upward trajectory?
It seems to me that after the first blow, given the disparity of force evident in the situation, that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm or death, and that's the criteria for use of deadly defensive force.
Para Bellum
New member
I hope I would
have drawn and helped the guy. In my country, firing at the attacker would be legally ok. And I don't think that in any other juristiction you would be obliged to fight that bastard with your bare hands...
If the environement would allow for it, I would immediately fire a warning-shot before I talk to Mr. bad guy. A Fridge or stacks of cans etc would be a good bullet-catcher for that purpose. The blast sometimes helps clear a mind.
If no safe bullet-catcher would be availiable, I would say that a shot at the bad guy would be ok. If I had the guts for it - I honestly don't know. I once pulled to help others and it worked. No shots fired that time.
have drawn and helped the guy. In my country, firing at the attacker would be legally ok. And I don't think that in any other juristiction you would be obliged to fight that bastard with your bare hands...
If the environement would allow for it, I would immediately fire a warning-shot before I talk to Mr. bad guy. A Fridge or stacks of cans etc would be a good bullet-catcher for that purpose. The blast sometimes helps clear a mind.
If no safe bullet-catcher would be availiable, I would say that a shot at the bad guy would be ok. If I had the guts for it - I honestly don't know. I once pulled to help others and it worked. No shots fired that time.
1911SFOREVER
New member
"Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired."
Given the state of that felon's mind during this attack, I think this would have been a 2% situation. You probably could have been screaming your head off, and in that perp's rage he wouldn't have heard you. He was largely fixated on the guy he was pummeling.
Pepper spray and then blade would have been my choice.
Given the state of that felon's mind during this attack, I think this would have been a 2% situation. You probably could have been screaming your head off, and in that perp's rage he wouldn't have heard you. He was largely fixated on the guy he was pummeling.
Pepper spray and then blade would have been my choice.
I don't agree with the warning shot idea. It comes from the same mental camp as shooting to wound. The obvious problem with a warning shot would be a ricochet harming an innocent bystander. If you're justified in using lethal force, you should (IMO) use lethal force and leave the theatrics to the movie people. That video clip was a wonderful example of why you should carry OC. It at least gives you a step between harsh language and lethal force.
U.F.O.
U.F.O.
We'll get to the truly insulting part in a moment...
Unfortunately for most of the video it looks like "Jabba the hut" and his victim were blocking the doorway. Towards the tail end, "Jabba" appears to get back in line like no big deal happened.
Supposing one could get out the door without becoming victim #2, as you exit, you make a comment like "You stupid coward!" (or a more insulting comment) and proceed to step "lively", away from the door. When Jabba comes after you, draw your .45 ACP and proceed to put 5 center of mass. Explanation is very simple. You were legally armed, the BG was "beating a man to death", the close quarters of the shop precluded the use of a firearm, his size and weight indicated a high probability of needing multiple hits from a distance, so you lured him outside away from "innocent sheeple ..er ..bystanders" to stop his agression. You didn't run because he was in a "violent rage" and would likely injure another person or return to kill victim #1.
The really insulting part of this whole clip are the so-called "anchors" of the news. They express their horror that no one did anything, yet it is their profession and THEY THEMSELVES are at least partially to blame.
How many news reports have you seen where the media repeats the old socialist drumbeat "don't get involved, just call 911"? How many reports have you heard the media regurgitate the line "Having a gun just makes things worse" or "don't take the law into your own hands"?
And these two dolts have the audacity to be "shocked" that no one has done anything? Besides "Jabba the Blut" outweighing any TWO people in the shop, he obviously doesn't care about the consequences of hurting someone. The society the media has moulded is doing what the media has drummed into their heads over the last 30 years -- be passive, don't resist, just call 911! Meanwhile a man may die or be disabled for life.
Prosecutors who would zealously go after a CHL holder for luring the BG outside and then shooting him also are to blame. They are the type that would "twist" the situation to claim "you caused the threat to your own life by making him chase after you, knowing you were armed and could kill him at your whim". DA's like these we don't need. Nor the police chiefs who support them or the politicians who endorse them.
Okay... <deep breath> -- rant off!
Unfortunately for most of the video it looks like "Jabba the hut" and his victim were blocking the doorway. Towards the tail end, "Jabba" appears to get back in line like no big deal happened.
Supposing one could get out the door without becoming victim #2, as you exit, you make a comment like "You stupid coward!" (or a more insulting comment) and proceed to step "lively", away from the door. When Jabba comes after you, draw your .45 ACP and proceed to put 5 center of mass. Explanation is very simple. You were legally armed, the BG was "beating a man to death", the close quarters of the shop precluded the use of a firearm, his size and weight indicated a high probability of needing multiple hits from a distance, so you lured him outside away from "innocent sheeple ..er ..bystanders" to stop his agression. You didn't run because he was in a "violent rage" and would likely injure another person or return to kill victim #1.
The really insulting part of this whole clip are the so-called "anchors" of the news. They express their horror that no one did anything, yet it is their profession and THEY THEMSELVES are at least partially to blame.
How many news reports have you seen where the media repeats the old socialist drumbeat "don't get involved, just call 911"? How many reports have you heard the media regurgitate the line "Having a gun just makes things worse" or "don't take the law into your own hands"?
And these two dolts have the audacity to be "shocked" that no one has done anything? Besides "Jabba the Blut" outweighing any TWO people in the shop, he obviously doesn't care about the consequences of hurting someone. The society the media has moulded is doing what the media has drummed into their heads over the last 30 years -- be passive, don't resist, just call 911! Meanwhile a man may die or be disabled for life.
Prosecutors who would zealously go after a CHL holder for luring the BG outside and then shooting him also are to blame. They are the type that would "twist" the situation to claim "you caused the threat to your own life by making him chase after you, knowing you were armed and could kill him at your whim". DA's like these we don't need. Nor the police chiefs who support them or the politicians who endorse them.
Okay... <deep breath> -- rant off!
Para Bellum
New member
Warning shot
i don't want to hijack this excellent thread so I started an extra thread on warning shots:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1494777#post1494777
i don't want to hijack this excellent thread so I started an extra thread on warning shots:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1494777#post1494777
that must be US-Socialist. In Austria (Europe) where I live, it's even legal to shoot a rubber running away with you valuable or a carjacker driving away with your car in the back, and that's good. Our criminal code by the way was drafted during a social democrat governing period...
chris in va
New member
I'm sorry man, know it was a misspelling but the visual image cracked me up.