Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Don't underestimate the Mice...

I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat...and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon...but it's still a powerful form of self-defense.
 
.300H&H, Getting those 7 torso hits against a fighting & moving target while under the stress of a life and death situation according to statistics is very difficult. Here in lies the problem with micro calibers. Bad guys turn, bob, weave, run, charge, and many many more unexpected maneuvers that are very difficult to predict much less practice for. Your frontal torso view might suddenly disappear into an arm and side with the slightest of bad guy movement. Now you have half the size target and twice the required penetration to get to vitals.

Theoretically 7 rapid hits to the torso is going to cause a serious problem for the BG as will precision hits. They are just statistically hard to achieve reliably given the variables.
 
As WildAlaska has said before, and I agree with, the .32(or any decent mouse) is more than enough for the average citizen in everyday, average situations...and small caliber hits to the face at arms length will do a lot of damage(Ken, I'll take a 3X, thank you;))

Not that there is anything wrong with a bigger cal. either, it's just not mandatory for the average CCW'er
 
Quote:
Also David killed the Goliath with a rock but I am much more accurate with a .22 than with a sling and it is much faster reloading.

Don't have to reload a rock if it's in your hands. And I'm pretty accurate with a rock that way.

I really hope I don't get so close to the BG that I can hit him in the head with the rock still in my hand. Of course if you are that close you can always pistol whup him. :D
 
32 S&w

That"s what I've been carrying since I registered the gun yesterday. It is a very old five shot H&R revolver that belonged to my mother's deceased uncle and she gave it to me. I am well aware of the limitations of this pistol but it will have to do until I can turn loose the coin for something better. I have a Browning 7 shot semi 380 but it is too heavy to suit me for pocket carry and I have yet to find a holster that has what I want off the rack. Once sweatshirt weather gets here I should have a nice Blackhawk holster for my Beretta 92FS and that's what I'll carry. Since I have spent 57 years of my life unarmed, that little 32 S&W I consider a big improvement!:D
 
Last edited:
From a book used in California for CCW class study:

Not Looking to Die

by A. Grant Macomber



INTRODUCTION

by Bill Sansom

The first bullet crashed through the door and hit me just above my belt buckle. It ripped through my abdomen, shattered my right hip at the joint, and careened down my leg bone, blasting my leg muscles into a jellied, bloodshot pulp. The impact of the .44 Mag. 240 gr. jacketed hollow point blew me off the three-step trailer house porch. I slammed against the side of a parked car and slid in a heap in six inches of new-fallen snow.

I had somehow managed to draw my Smith & Wesson .357 as the bullet hurled me through the air. But my arm was pinned under my stunned and broken body, the revolver still clenched tightly in my fist. The maniac who shot me stepped calmly out onto the porch. “I told you cops to leave me alone,” he snarled.

He slowly thumbed back the hammer of his single action six gun. The soft clicking of the revolving cylinder echoed off the walls of the tightly packed trailers in the frigid December dawn. He squinted down his outstretched arm at the Deputy Sheriff star on my jacket.

The second shot punched into my chest, disintegrating a two-inch piece of rib bone, searing a white hot railroad spike of fire through my left lung, dislocating my shoulder. The force of the bullet lifted me and skidded me a foot backwards. It also freed my pinned gun hand. My first two shots bracketed the third button down on his faded red union suit.

His third shot ricocheted off the frozen ground between my splayed out legs. The mushroomed slug tore out a swath of muscle and severed an artery just above my left knee.

My third 158 gr. jacketed hollow point caught him in his right elbow, spinning him backwards into his trailer. I kept pulling the trigger until there was nothing left but the snap of my firing pin falling on spent casings.

I heard the man thrashing around inside the trailer house, and I did not know how badly he was hit or even if he was hit. I attempted to reload my Model 19 S&W using two six-shot dump boxes on my gun belt. All the rounds fell out and rolled off my body into the snow. I was stunned and badly broken up by the bullets that had hit me. I could not raise my left arm or even lift my head up. I opened the cylinder of my six-shot revolver and with my right arm reached over as far as I could and shook the empty casings out. Then I lay the gun on my chest and felt around in the snow until I luckily found one live round. I poked the round into the cylinder and rolled the cylinder on my chest until it would put the round under my firing pin when cocked. I cocked my pistol and waited.

The man came crawling out of his trailer doorway and glared down at me lying on my back in the snow, his .44 magnum revolver cocked and clenched in his right fist. I lifted my revolver, took careful aim – and shot him through the temple.

The reason that I remember all this so clearly is that the incident has been played over almost every night these last twenty-four years in my dreams. I will never again be the second guy shooting.

I had been shooting 50 rounds a week of handloads just before that incident. I had a portable silhouette target that I carried in the trunk of my patrol car, and I would drive out into the brush and shoot some rounds from every conceivable position except flat on my back. My service revolver became an extension of my arm, and I could hit a bullseye five out of six out to 15 yards, draw and fire.

A handgun should never be used as a deterrent, but, if needed, it should be drawn and fired immediately, and always used to kill - not to wound or frighten your attacker. I can tell you several stories about misused handguns, and the grief the users suffered because of their lack of resolve.

Nobody knows if they are capable of killing another human being - until they do. Some people, maybe you are one of them, think a concealed weapons permit is an insurance policy against being mugged, raped, robbed, or embarrassed in front of your loved ones. Your license to carry a concealed weapon will give you a false sense of security. You are now armed. You may even think you are dangerous. In reality, the permit is likely to increase your chances of becoming a victim of a violent act. Announcing, "I’ve got a gun," is one of the quickest ways that I know of to get yourself killed.

You are a responsible, law abiding citizen. You are probably a business or professional person. You have a family, own a home. You are educated, reliable, and conscientious. You are not a law enforcement officer, private investigator, or a security guard. They are already licensed to carry a weapon; and they are also trained to know when and how to use it. You, on the other hand, have a concealed weapon permit because you are either afraid, or you are looking for trouble. There are no other reasons for a civilian to have a concealed weapon.

After you get the permit, your weapon will most likely remain under your car seat, in your desk drawer, or in the bottom of your purse. There will not be a round in the chamber. It may even be completely unloaded, the bullets hidden in some other place – for safety. You may have last shot the weapon two months, six months, a year ago, or when you shot it to qualify for your permit. But now you are unafraid because you have a possibly loaded gun – somewhere. Suddenly, the trouble you were looking out for is looking at you – while you are looking for your gun. There is only one place to have a concealed weapon: on your body. There is only one way to handle a weapon: often. And there is only one way to react to trouble: instinctively.

Just having a gun is not enough to protect you or your loved ones. You must know how to use a gun. You must be able to recognize danger in time to react immediately and lethally. You must prepare yourself beforehand, mentally and emotionally, to take another human life, and to face the legal and psychological consequences of your decision, so that you will not have to think about it in the split second that you will have to live or die.

This book is filled with real-life situations, where a gun was not enough, where it had to be mixed with blood and courage to stop a determined, often deranged, attacker. Read this book carefully. Put yourself into the shoes of those who stood fast, who faced the ultimate test of bravery. And lie in the street for awhile with those who lost their lives -- even though they were armed.


Bill Sansom
Saint Regis, Montana


http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=18


Sometimes a .22 is not enough. Sometimes three hits with a .44 magnum, or .357 magnum are not enough. All things considered, I'd rather be holding the magnum.
 
Figures it would be used in California!
Bullet impacts don't "blow you off steps, spin you around, or move your body a foot in the snow."
I'm sure it must have seemed that way, but physics says otherwise.
 
Anecdotal... I know of a shooting some years ago that went like this: A drug dealer in a housing project was approached by a 'customer' <another thug>and as they were exchanging a $20 bill/crack, the 'customer' whipped out a .22 mouse and with one quick shot to the dealers head... instantly ended the dealer's life. Nasty. I'll agree the little .22 mouseguns...aren't the optimum choice...but they can be very lethal.


Whenever I practiced/plinked with my .22 Bobcat, it was hard in a sense 'not' to pop off almost the entire magazine ie. it's a gun that's so easy to control...it begs for rapid multishots... It's a gun for close quarters, to be pulled out quickly and easily from total concealment. It's not a gun to be used in a gunfight where one is trying to suppress fire , shoot through, or knock down something. Its easy concealment, however, gives it a great tactical viability.


Personally I think a .38 snubbie is hard to beat - and is the most practical self defense handgun. However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing.
One thing I don't like about the little mouse .22's - is that they can jam, and I see a lot of'em<moreso in years past than today ie. there seems to be more avid women shooters today> given to women and newbie shooters...as a primary selfdefense gun. A lot of these shooters never really practiced using the guns...and seemed to just stash them away...and I would be concerned about their being able to really use the guns effectively in a real selfdefense situation.
 
Anecdotal... I know of a shooting some years ago that went like this: A drug dealer in a housing project was approached by a 'customer' <another thug>and as they were exchanging a $20 bill/crack, the 'customer' whipped out a .22 mouse and with one quick shot to the dealers head... instantly ended the dealer's life. Nasty. I'll agree the little .22 mouseguns...aren't the optimum choice...but they can be very lethal.


Whenever I practiced/plinked with my .22 Bobcat, it was hard in a sense 'not' to pop off almost the entire magazine ie. it's a gun that's so easy to control...it begs for rapid multishots... It's a gun for close quarters, to be pulled out quickly and easily from total concealment. It's not a gun to be used in a gunfight where one is trying to suppress fire , shoot through, or knock down something. Its easy concealment, however, gives it a great tactical viability.


Personally I think a .38 snubbie is hard to beat - and is the most practical self defense handgun. However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing.
One thing I don't like about the little mouse .22's - is that they can jam, and I see a lot of'em<moreso in years past than today ie. there seems to be more avid women shooters today> given to women and newbie shooters...as a primary selfdefense gun. A lot of these shooters never really practiced using the guns...and seemed to just stash them away...and I would be concerned about their being able to really use the guns effectively in a real selfdefense situation.
 
Assassination (as in your drug dealer story) is much different than self defense especially when behind in the reactionary curve.

However, a mouse .22 is a lot better than nothing.

This just sounds so sad considering my life or the life of my children could be at stake. I deserve better....they surely deserve better, even if it is harder to hide.

I make the sacrifice of learning tactics, practicing them, practicing with my firearm, and going through the trouble of getting permitted only to carry something that is "a lot better than nothing". Carrying a weapon which isn't consistently capable of doing what needs to be done to stop a bad guy given the dynamics of a self defense situation is akin to a father doing his job half arsed IMO.

One thing is resorting to a mouse as the only option available. Its totally another to voluntarily choose them as primary when bigger is available....IMO.
 
"I could quickly pop off 7 rounds from my little .22 Beretta Bobcat...and I can't imagine anyone standing on the receiving end within 10 ft. who could withstand such a nasty unloading. Imagine 7 quick .22/.25 acp shots at close range to one's torso. That's nasty and very lethal. It might not be the optimum primary weapon...but it's still a powerful form of self-defense."

Thats the real world. Ask a coroner what .22lr com wounds are really like.
 
We all know that ALL firearms are lethal. :confused:

Head shots do NOT make up a large percentage of intial hits in a dynamic situation. :rolleyes:

Geesh!

Remind me to not eat any more cheese lest I become comfortable with the mickey mouse genre of handguns... :p
 
On the other hand ... I recall a few years ago the shooting death of Trooper Mark Coates. He was involved in a traffic stop. The BG pulled a .25 habdgun and the trooper took one hit. He emptied his .357 magnum revolver into the BG. Today that BG sits in prison, while many morn the loss of Trooper Mark Coates.

One hit with a .25 results in death .. six hits with a .357 magnum produces only injury. I do not even try to understand it.
 
I really hope I don't get so close to the BG that I can hit him in the head with the rock still in my hand. Of course if you are that close you can always pistol whup him.

With a .25? Just be carefull it don't break or go off in your hand when you do that.
 
After you get the permit, your weapon will most likely remain under your car seat, in your desk drawer, or in the bottom of your purse. There will not be a round in the chamber. It may even be completely unloaded, the bullets hidden in some other place – for safety.
That's about the silliest damn thing I've ever heard. Based on what? I personally know only about a dozen CPL holders, and NONE would lend themselves to backing up this particular statistic. Most likely? Conjecture at its purest.
 
Anecdotal...

Some years ago<many years ago> I was dating a lady...and as the passenger in her car - a 1972 Vette -<gosh, do I remember the car more fondly?:rolleyes:> I noticed a Beretta .25acp sticking out of the glove box... She remarked that it was there to 'scare off possible bad guys'. She had never actually fired the gun, but 'knew how to load it...' It was a bit chilling ie. she treated it like a kind of 'toy' and seemed to assume that it was a simple little thing to use... She had no experience with any firearms. It had been given to her as a 'gift' by a relative.


One problem with Mouse guns, is that I think they don't get the respect they deserve; they aren't toys - and they require more proficiency to use than a revolver or bigger semiautos. With a Mouse gun, one should frequently practice shooting it, and know how to 'clear it' of possible jams - and gain a significant level of skill. Yet, I would bet that Mouse guns suffer from getting the least amount of respect and proficiency of use. A big chunk of the stats in regard to the poor performance of .22/.25acp's might simply be a reflection of the unskillful use of the weapons rather than the actual weapons. One sad remark sometimes heard in the aftermath of a shooting<i'm thinking primarily of domestic situations> is :'It was just a .22.' - as if folks think that there's a special law that categorizes a little .22 as not being so serious...


Tactical proficiency will almost always trump caliber size. I think people are a little smarter these days, but the Mouse gun could still benefit from a bigger dose of respect and training. I've seen Mouseguns being one of the most dangerous little items for some people to own...and I do believe that the .22 caliber is responsible for the most gunshot wounds of any caliber<i know it was some years back...>
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top