Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?

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"IMO the only use a 22 or 25 has is as a backup or when nothing bigger is possible."

Now we're on the same page. I've already stated that, if possible, I personally don't carry anything smaller than a .38 spcl. or (preferably) a 9mm. I have a compact .40 on order.

A lot of mouseguns are being made in .380 and 9mm, so there is less reason to carry anything smaller. My wife has trouble handling the recoil of a mousegun in .380 or 9mm, so she carries a .32 auto. She's good with it. Ya do that ya gotta do.
 
"Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?"

The standard answer is "because there are better options." The standard outlier arguments are brought up but this, but that... fine. If they represent a given person's situation that should be taken into account. But for most there are better options.
 
You mean, the guy with the biggest gun wins?
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I'm saying that a man with a .45 would have an edge over someone armed with a .22

Just how big of an edge it would be, is debatable. But I think that most would agree that the person with the .22 would be disadvantaged by their gun selection.

Of course, there are many, many factors that play into any confrontation. If the gun used was the sole factor in a gun battle, then the lady ( Jeanne Assam ) that stopped the shooter at the New Life Church in Colorado should have lost that fight. For that shooter had a Bushmaster AR-15, a .40 S&W Beretta 96, and a Springfield XD 9mm. He also had an AK-47, but he left that gun in his car, and did not take it into the church.

But she was pretty well armed too, with a 9mm Beretta 92 FS. While she scored no truly fatal hits, she hit him twice in the same thigh, causing him to bleed severely. And then she shot him in the wrist, disabling one of his hands. At that point, he decided to end it all, and used his other hand to shoot himself in the head.

One would normally have expected him to come out on top in the gunfight, as he had been using the Bushmaster. But he didn't.

But what if Jeanne Assam had instead been carrying only a little pocket Beretta .25 Auto? Would the outcome have likely been the same??


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There is some extensive actual test data.

During World War Two the British Special Operation Executive (the SOE) conducted an extensive series of tests of all currently (1942) available handguns to decide what they should arm their agents sent on missions to the occupied countries to kill key German officials and collaborators.
The SOE concluded that a .22 Long Rifle automatic piatol was the best weapon. Their firing technique was to fire 10 rounds into the intended victims upper chest cavity. Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back. That translates into stopping power as well as lethality.ys died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back.

Note that " Agents who did this in the field reported that their victims almost always died very rapidly and were seldom able to cry out or shoot back."

That was stopping power as well as lethality.
 
agents sent on missions to the occupied countries to kill key German officials and collaborators.
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Not to dispute the lethality of a .22, but these were assassinations, not self defense situations. Imagine you are walking along and somebody zips you with 10 .22 rounds in the chest. You probably don't have a lot of time to get worked up before the panic sets in, or shock. Different situation entirely when the adrenaline and endorphins are already flowing.

Remember, the reason .25's and pocket .22's got popular in the first place (pre-1960's or so) is because the metallurgy was not advanced enough to handle high-pressure cartridges in small packages. Hence the rise of the .25, .32's and .380's. Now you can stuff more power into smaller packages, so why not take advantage of it.
 
Any LEO will tell you that the call they dread most is responding to domestic violence. Normal people can suddenly do crazy things. As the economic situation in this country deterioriates I expect we will see more of the "suicide by cop" scenarios being played out...
 
I'm of the camp of the .380 minimum, though I regularly carry a .32 ACP. I really needed a pocket gun, but when I got my P32, there was no such thing as a P3AT. Now that Ruger has introduced the LCP, I fully intend to purchase one. Soon, the .380 will be my minimum, at last. I also believe that any gun is better than no gun, and have carried, on occasion, a PT22. I could hit what I aimed at, and I didn't really feel vastly undergunned with a full load of Yellow Jackets. But even that wasn't "pocket" enough for me, and though the lowly .32 is no .380, I feel it's close, and better than the .25 or the .22, even in their best loadings. I doubt my P32 will go up for sale, it's served me well, and will no doubt take it's rightful place in a tiny corner of the safe, and shot maybe once a year.
 
Hard Ball,

The SOE usually was either doing an assination, taking out a guard, or striking first (and if possible without warning.) And they did not use hide out pocket guns like a Kel-Tec or Raven or Beretta 950, etc....

Also most SD and police shootings start with the cops and good guys reacting to an attack, not preemptive strikes.

Also add the idea of winchestering your .22 at one person does not leave you with any ammo to combat a second attacker (not to mention today bullet proof vest are more common.)

I'm sure 10 shots at very close range is fatial. But....
 
The original question asks about using a .22 or .25 for the primary defense gun: Erik answered it best I think.

"Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?

"The standard answer is "because there are better options. . . . . for most there are better options."
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The .25 is notorious for not having enough power to do much but noisily exit a too short barrel, . . . and the .22 is equally notorious for ammo that goes click instead of bang.

Having said that, . . . and being a dyed in the wool 1911 carrier, . . . I still would not feel undergunned in a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 defensive scenario if I had my son's Browning Buckmark. It holds 10 in the mag, . . . and I can put all 10 of em (if no misfires are present) in the 9 in paper plate at 21 feet in something like 4 seconds. I actually get much better overall scores with this gun than my 1911.

The person who would carry the .22 or .25 just has to know their limitations, including an almost dire necessity to put em all in the snot locker, . . . carry a spare mag at least, . . . be proficient at clearing misfires quickly, . . .

Personally, . . . if someone drew a Browning Buckmark or a Ruger on me, . . . I would be seriously careful of what I did, . . . knowing the lethality of 10 each .22 Long Rifle rounds.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
"Yeah, a .22 in hand beats a .45 at home in the safe. You can't always conceal/open carry the firepower you'd like to have with you."
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Yada, yada, yada. First rule is bring enough gun. if you don't you may very well "deserve" the potential outcome...

I wish people would drop that stupid notion. It's YOUR life so pack the damned gun.

Tell yourself: Self :D, you will get into a fight today that will require that you actually fire your weapon. After you've done this then and only then open your safe and choose.
 
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Chui, You took the words right out of my mouth.


Dwight, Snot locker might not be available. That 9inch plate at the range vs during the gun fight........could be harder to hit.
 
An old cop I met told me a funny story.

He is working in a bad urban area and gets a call of armed men trying to break into house. He arrives and finds a little old lady in her livingroom standing over two dead guys. She was packing a POS .25 pocket gun and took out two guys with a single shot each.

On the flip side there are multiple stories of people shaking off hits from a .45 or a .44.

Moral of the story, .22 and .25 are lethal and having a 4 in front of the caliber does not mean you carry a death ray.
 
Deaf Smith said:
The SOE usually was either doing an assination, taking out a guard, or striking first (and if possible without warning.) And they did not use hide out pocket guns like a Kel-Tec or Raven or Beretta 950, etc....
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Correct. The .22's used by SOE were usually High Standard HD's or Colt Woodsman pistols with about 3" to 4" of barrel before the bullet engaged the supressor. That extra barrel helps the .22lr generate a lot more energy and velocity than the typical 2" Minx/Bobcat barrel. If you want something comparable, you should carry a Buckmark or a Ruger Mk. II or III with a bull barrel. But, for the size & weight, you can carry something more effective.

Another thing, for a long time, .22lr bullets came in two types: bare lead and copper-washed lead. The big advantage .25ACP and .22WMR had over .22lr was that the first two had actual jacket bullets. Today, you can get jacketed .22lr bullets. But all other ammo has advanced, too.

Nowadays, .32ACP or .32H&R Mag is the floor for SD loads....although a good .22WMR is pretty impressive, too... :cool:
 
Moral of the story, .22 and .25 are lethal and having a 4 in front of the caliber does not mean you carry a death ray.
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There is no death ray except... a death ray.

Nice to have a powerfull handgun, but people have stood and fought after being hit with 12 guage slugs, buckshot, 30-06, and I have no doubt a few hit with .50 BMG or ever bigger.

Still, I prefer something more than a mousegun.
 
Since everyone knows that people have survived all manner of hits from all manners of calibers, including .223 JHP, .308 JHP and 12 gauge Brenneke slugs why in HELL would you CHOOSE to "go hunting" with a god... awful "mouse gun"??? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!! :rolleyes:
 
Because that little old lady instantly stopped 2 men with a 25acp.

Me I understand that the bad guy will be moving, canting, bobbing, and weaving. Getting that perfect shot might not be possible.

Extremes can be listed from both sides but they are still not the norm. When the dust settles and the smoke clears handguns with cartridges heavy enough to penetrate deep and smash bone will be on top.

When that terrible day arrives for the unlucky WP holder to actually have to use the cw I promise all will be wishing for more power. The guys who already carry as potent a handgun as is available and concealable will only be able to wish for a long gun.
 
"Also add the idea of winchestering your .22 at one person does not leave you with any ammo to combat a second attacker "

Don't worry. My pistol was a .22lr PPK/s 10 shot Interarms version and i carried two spare 10 round magazines.
 
Extremes can be listed from both sides but they are still not the norm.
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I don't care for "the norm". I own a firearm due to "extremes". I've never been robbed or assaulted or had a home invasion. All of those are "extremes" for me and having enough gun, knife, martial arts, dog to deal with these "extremes" makes me CALM or much more calm than not. Besides, in the extreme case you will have to drop the hammer and I, for one, don't want a freakin' .22LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .380, or .38 Special to defend my hide. And why should I when there's 9mm and .45 ACP readily available?

We agree that at the end of the day the cartridge must be able to offer sufficient penetration (and expansion).

"Those who traverse the planet with a only mouse gun on his person better make damned sure that the planet is only infested with mice." From bad Jeff Cooper to me in a dream...
 
I could use the .40 S&W in an M&P or HK full size. The rest of them overpenetrate and if you're being shot at they are horrible for shot recovery.

You forgot .357 Sig which is like a LOUD +P 9mm with more flash.

I'll take the .44 Magnum while in the woods, though.
 
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