Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?

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I have experimented with killing roosters and animals with different .22LR ammo.
I have experimented with increasing the power of 25acp through +P++ handloads.

Quickshock ammo with pre fragmented bullets works the best for 22LR. See attached photo.
They have now licensed this design to CCI.

I can actually get 25acp to kick hard with hot handloads. Too hot and the primer falls out and the case gets stuck in the chamber [there is no extractor].

Still, the Kel-Tec P3AT .380 weighs 10 ounces loaded, and so there is no real reason to carry a 22 or 25, as they are typiically no lighter. An NAA revolver may be 4 ounces, but the 10 ounce Kel-Tec...I can't feel it right now in my pocket.
 

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I'm "sorry". Actually, I'm NOT.

Bring enough f$#*) gun or stay home. Period.

:barf:

What the Hell has happened to our society that a man cannot "comfortably" carry a loaded pistol?

:confused:
 
Overpenetration and noise issues...can make the .22/.25acp more apealing.
If I'm in an apartment/condo where all that's separating me from a neighbor - is a couple of layers of sheetrock, I don't want a .357mag.or .40S&W or a 9mm. Also, when a firearm is fired indoors the noise and muzzle flash are magnified.


I had a Beretta 21a that I sold - and it was a kind of love/hate pistol ie. I really liked the concealbility and the way it fit in my hand. It was a very convenient firearm and fun to shoot. However, I hated the lack of confidence I had when carrying it ie. it seemed to work flawlessly with one brand of ammo - but it jammed with everything else...and I always had to wonder whether it would work flawlessly in a real crisis or just reintroduce me to Murphy's Law. :rolleyes:


I kinda like the little .32's and would like to see more .32 revolvers. I think the .25acp could be improved. I love the size and feel of the Beretta Tomcat .32acp - but I have no confidence in the gun ie. too many reports of reliability problems.' It's a shame ie. I have come close to buying one quite a few times...but just couldn't trust them.
 
Noise shouldn't be a factor in choosing a self defense weapon. Damage to the ear occurs at DB levels over 85db. The lowly 22lr from a handgun chimes in at 134db. Damage is occurring with it from every shot.


CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 " barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB


CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

Recall that sounds over 85-90 dB can lead to permanent hearing damage without hearing protection. As can be seen from Table 2, even firing a .22LR (134 dB) has the potential of causing permanent, irreversible, inner ear damage.
Click to expand...

They all hurt your inner ear. So since we are only going to use a gun without hearing protection to defend ourselves from death or great bodily injury a few db's aren't going to change much.
 
There are much more important things in determining ear damage than the difference between cartridges; the effective reflection of the environment and the ear's state at the time. That is why the Eskimos went deaf, as they were shooting at water after waiting in silence.

Also, the measurement from cartridge to cartridge is going to be repeatable in a relative way, being a function of muzzle pressure and bore+chamber volume, but the absolute measurement is very difficult to control. When someone writes down 155.0 db re ubar, that may be one data point from one set up, but to get 4 digits of replicate able resolution, that would be one elaborate test set up in the lab, certainly not at the range.
 
Over the years, I have found 4 very easy to carry handguns, small, easily carried in a jeans pocket, or coat pocket. 2 are .22's, one is an old .25, and one a .32 ACP. I can shoot any of them very accurately, all can be carried in a "ready" state, and all are very reliable. I sometimes carry one of them as a second gun tyo a .45, but occasionally they are primary, although the .25 seldom is.
The .22 auto is a S&W 2214, the .22 revolver is an old High Standard Sentinel 9 shot (with 2 HKS speedloaders), the .25 is a very old Italian Tanfoglio, the .32 is an FEG.

I enjoy shooting them, and I practice with them as much as with my big guns, also practice with them in the off hand. It might be only a .25, but 7 rounds in 1 1/2" will slow someone down.

mar
 
Life is about compromise

Everything is a trade-off: Weight, bulk, power, capacity vs. concealment, blast, cost, availability, etc.

If I were facing an unarmed opponent, a "mouse-gun" would be a definite advantage, whereas I might feel vulnerable with that same weapon going up against a guy with a full-powered handgun. Now, think about having that full-powered handgun on a field of battle where everyone else has rifles. What about taking on a tank with a rifle? You get my drift.

You use what you have. If you have the luxury of choice, you rationally analyze the risk, and choose accordingly.

A fairly dangerous man of my acquaintance would carry one of those tiny NAA .22 revolvers when off duty, when it was hot and he was wearing shorts. This guy could probably beat up most people, and I guess he figured the mouse-gun would take care of those he couldn't. If the opponent were armed, you probably wouldn't have much more than an even chance regardless of whether you were armed or not, without reloads, armor, etc, and who wants to schlep that stuff to the mall...?

That said, I agree there are better choices for me personally than .22 or .25 "mouse-guns". I carry a .38+P J-frame, mostly, and I know I'd be SOL if I got caught in a multiple armed opponent, take-over robbery-type situation.

You makes your choices and takes your chances.
 
"Why not carry the .22 and .25acp as a primary defense gun?"
Click to expand...

You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks.
 
I saw a classic statement in another topic on another forum.... "it beats harsh words." That is the ONLY reason I'd carry a .22 or .25 ACP and indeed has been the only reason I've done so.
 
I dont go into harms way, so a itty bitty pocket .32 suits me jest fine....I may even switch to a .22 cuz its smaller :)

WildfreetshirtforwhoeverinsertsmyfavoritelineaboutthissubjectintothisdiscussionAlaska ™
 
You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks.
Click to expand...

But you will need big pockets to handle those rocks. A .22/.25 isn't my preference but it sure beats nothing and I would not hesitate one bit to carry one if needed. I had a close friend that was killed by one shot from a .22.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't strategies change when using a mouse gun?

When using a larger caliber pistol it makes sense to shoot to COM. But when shooting a mouse gun, that strategy may not even slow down a determined attacker. If, however, when forced to use a mouse gun, you aim at the pelvic girdle do you not have a greater capacity to slow or end an attacker's charge on you? I am reminded of articles involving charging grizzly bears where the goal is to shoot to shoulders to stop the animal's ability to advance before trying to kill it. Why wouldn't the same reasoning apply in this situation?

<><Peace
 
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If the other guy is armed in ANY way, shape or form then you need to be able to overpower him very quickly with bigger and better guns. In other words, one of the officers should of been using a shotgun or a rifle. The rifle should have been at least a .30 caliber or bigger, like a lever action .44 magnum saddle carbine or even a 45-70. We can second guess all day as to what is right or wrong as far as this situation is concerned but having studied a number of police involved shootings as a range officer, time and again I see where an officer tried to use his handgun when a rifle or shotgun would have been of better use to him/them. In a couple of weeks I have a new group of officers that I will be teaching about using firearms and how to shoot them. Again, the one main thing that I WILL impress on them is to rely on the police rifle or shotgun as their PRIMARY firearm and use their pistols as back-ups to the shoulder-mounted guns. This situation just re-inforces how wimpy pistols can be to me.
 
There are lots of opinions about stopping power.

I have shot lots of animals and watched them die.

What a difference between Quickshock and Eagle hollow point 22lr ammo!

Above 2000 fps, there is shock wave that turns flesh to mush. Those shot by the DC sniper with a 223 died.
80% of those attacked with a handgun survive.
As Elmer Keith says, you can eat right up to the hole.

I have a friend who killed a perp with a 25acp after being screwed with a samurai sword back in 2000
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....d830f7f7e266?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#ac1ed830f7f7e266

My current strategy is to use 25acp pistols for demonstrating double charges as a first step in a work up with drastically low SAAMI registered pressures, carry a 380 in my shirt pocket for low threat neighborhoods, and carry a 45 in bad neighborhoods. If I find myself in trouble, I will put a half dozen 45 cal holes through his lungs and then out run him.
 
"You might as well carry around a load of throwing rocks in your pocket. You'll get about the same amount of protection and you don't need a CCW for the rocks."

Another irresponsible statement. Some kid might read that and shoot his friend, thinking that it won't hurt him any more than a rock. Think before you post, please.
 
Bill,

Cain killed Able with a rock. Think about that before you post.
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Also David killed the Goliath with a rock but I am much more accurate with a .22 than with a sling and it is much faster reloading.
 
I carry a Taurus PT25 when I walk my dog, because I'm usually in a pair of shorts and a tank top when nature calls him and changing into something that will let me carry a bigger gun isn't likely ... it's more for varmints than for bad guys, since my neighborhood hasn't seen a crime worse than mailbox bashing for years ... But it would never be my primary SD gun, I have a 9mm, .357 or .45 for that duty ... a .25 isn't much, but it will do the job on a skunk or snake if I need it to ...
 
Also David killed the Goliath with a rock but I am much more accurate with a .22 than with a sling and it is much faster reloading.
Click to expand...

Don't have to reload a rock if it's in your hands. And I'm pretty accurate with a rock that way.
 
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