Why is the 9mm so popular in Europe?

Now the irony here is why European guns are so common here.
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Ironic, or just sad, that US pistol makers have done such a poor job of competing with foreign designs that they make the US auto industry look like a success story. While the pistol in question may be in 40 cal, the average police officer in the US hits the street in a US branded/built patrol vehicle and with a foreign handgun on his hip.
 
Some of it stems from the fact that (pointed out in previous posts), the handgun, until fairly recently, has been assigned a relatively unimportant role in the scheme of things in Europe, both militarily and with police.

Another factor (again, until recently), is that Europeans tended to have more respect for authority and police, so large calibre handguns were not necessary. The handgun was a badge of authority and, if necessary, a threat. After all, in the "olden days" most people didn't want to get shot as there was a value put on life.

Even in the U.S. in days past, a uniformed policeman often carried a .32 revolver as a sidearm because, much like Europe, most people either had respect for the law and authority or were afraid of it. There was a time in this country that people actually felt the neighborhood cop on the beat was their friend.

But, gradually, over the years, we became accustomed, in large part due to Hollywood, to seeing guns that would knock a man 12 feet backwards, so the "bigger is better" mentality took over.

I guess I "live on the edge" but I feel that 99.99% of all threats I am likely to encounter in my lifetime can be defused by the little .380 FN/Browning 1910 pistol I routinely carry in my pocket. Now, maybe that .01% will get me someday, but, hey!, that's life. As a rule, though, the vast majority of people will either become very docile or depart when confronted with the possibility of being shot.

Having said that, I fully realize that there are parts of this country where the dangers are very real and densely populated by "certain" people who no longer have and respect for law and authority, and, furthermore, place NO value on a human life at all. If I had the misfortune to live in one of those areas, I'm sure I would most certainly think differently.
 
Ironic, or just sad, that US pistol makers have done such a poor job of competing with foreign designs that they make the US auto industry look like a success story.
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Both the US and Europe have excelent firearms manufacturers. Don't forget, we have Ruger, Kahr, Kimber, Smith & Wesson, and a whole bunch of other smaller companies all of whom design and manufacture a variety of semi-auto handguns.

Ok - Austria has Glock; Germany has HK & Walther, Slovokia has the STI GP6, Czechoslovokia has CZ, Itally has Beretta and Tanfoglio, Belgium has FN - all excelent gun makers. But, the US definitely holds its own in the pistol department.
 
The Europeans realized long before we did that you don't need a .45 caliber slug to have a formidable round.
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Sure, but at 100 yards and 750fps out the barrel, it could take an eye out, let alone give you a big blue bruise. The wife also enjoys my mild hand-loaded .45 better than the factory 9mm we buy. As far as which would do the most damage, I donno. But the .45 are easier to see on the target.
 
The U.S. was late to the semi auto game. S&W did not make a duty sized semi till the 1950s and when it did it made it in 9mm. Till after the second WW the U.S. was a nation of wheelgunners and small hideout semis in .25 acp, .32 acp and 380acp.
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You seem it be ignoring the Colt Government model, (commonly called the 1911 today), which was available to the public since its introduction in 1911. For decades, it was the only US made autopistol considered for serious use, and generations grew up and grew old with only one pistol as "the .45", the Colt Government model. Also offered in .38 Super ( since 1929) and a bit later in 9mm Luger.

I suppose you could say we were late to the semi auto game, after all, we adopted our 1911 and its .45 caliber cartridge a whole 3 years after the German Army adopted their Luger and its 9mm cartridge.

There were a number of big bore revolvers in use in Europe in the late 1800s, but they have been gone so long that they are virtually unremembered today. Both France and Germany used an 11mm revolver, England had their .450 and .455 Webley. Austria had an 11.75mm revolver round. One thing all these rounds have in common is that they are less powerful than the big bore US rounds of the same era. They all operated in the 650-700fps range. And, of course, were black powder.
 
You seem it be ignoring the Colt Government model, (commonly called the 1911 today), which was available to the public since its introduction in 1911. For decades, it was the only US made autopistol considered for serious use, and generations grew up and grew old with only one pistol as "the .45", the Colt Government model. Also offered in .38 Super ( since 1929) and a bit later in 9mm Luger.
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Nope I'm counting it. The U.S. was a nation of wheelgunners till after WWII. Sales of semis in the U.S. always lagged behind that of revolvers till the last decades of the last century. With a few exceptions virtually all law enforcement carried revolvers chambered in the mid bore .38 caliber rounds till the mid to late 1980s when the transition to semis began with the 9mm "wonder nines".

In civilian sales revolvers decidedly outsold 1911s in either 45 or 38 Super for most of the 20th century. Small bore semis outsold larger bore semis for the same periods. (Check with R.W. Wilson's books on Colt for facts on this).

In terms of semis Europe was a good deal ahead of the U.S. in the development and use of pistols. This is one reason they early on adopted the 9mm and, like I said above, spread it all over the globe in the decades following it's introduction. Far beyond where the .45 went.

tipoc
 
I guess I misunderstood slightly...

There's no denying the revolver was king in America during the 20th century. And its because of the fact that compared to the semi auto they are just so freakin' versatile. Not to mention the tremendous head start.

I grew up, and grew into handgun shooting in an era when hi capacity was the Browning Hi Power with a huge 13 rnd magazine. Firepower wasn't at the top of the list of desirable things in a handgun. And the 9mm Luger was not as good a performer as it has become today.

Magazines for the .45 were 7rnds, not 8, and there was endless debate on the real world advantage of the extra 2 rnds possible in an auto pistol vs a revolver. The 9mm vs .45 debate kept us entertained for several decades before the 9mm came to be accepted as adequate in most people's eyes, including my own.

The handgunning world in the US has changed a lot since then, and in many ways become more like Europe, just as our nation has become more like Europe in several ways.

The 9mm bacame the free world's standard due to its adoption as the Nato round, and agressive marketing, as much, or perhaps more so, than because of the capability of the round itself. One of the reasons the .45 didn't get adopted by a lot of other nations is that we didn't push it. Not to anything near the degree the Europeans (Germans, primarily) pushed the 9mm in the world markets.

Face it, if you are a govt, looking for a pistol, and its got to be an autopistol (and after WWII, everybody decided the auto was good for military use), then it comes down to only three choices. The US .45, the 9mm NATO, or something else, like some oddball round locally produced, or something from the Soviet bloc nations. By the 80s, the US went to the 9mm, the oddball rounds were few, and the Soviet bloc was coming apart. Today, its even simpler. IF you want a pistol you can support easily, it comes in 9mm.

As a civilian, if you want an effective autopistol, 9mm is the base minimum, provided your local laws allow you ownership. I'm not talking pocket pistols,and people will argue the .380 is effective too, I'm talking about a full size duty class gun, and for that, .380 is a waste, because you can get 9mm.

Notice nobody talks about the 9mm for hunting. Handgun hunting is primarily a US thing, and for that, revolver rounds are clearly better than the usual semi auto pistol rounds.

Getting back to the OP, the base reason the 9mm is so popular in Europe is the same reason the .45 is still so popular in the US. It came from there (history), it works, and there are lots of choices available.
 
Getting back to the OP, the base reason the 9mm is so popular in Europe is the same reason the .45 is still so popular in the US. It came from there (history), it works, and there are lots of choices available.
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I really think that, bottom line, that is it.

Browning's earliest designs for a pistol for the U.S. military were in 38acp (not the .380 but the 38 acp father of the 38 Super which came later) it was a good round, sort of an American 9mm. But the military wanted a big bore like the .45 Colt that had worked so well for us in our history conquering the west. Alongside the 44-40 which worked in leverguns and others. From the time of the Mexican war big bore revolvers were carried by the troops. So the 1911 was in .45acp. And so on. Americans did like small carry pistols like the Baby Browning, Colt's pocket hammerless and others, almost as much as we liked snubby J and K frames.

Semis were nice but only ball ammo was widely available till after the second ww. Wheelguns were versatile and Colt and S&W made the finest in the world. Interesting to read Bill Jordan and Chic Gaylord and others in the 60s and 70s refer to semis as "jamamatics" and "ammo burners". Their opinion was often that they were good for the military but revolvers were more versatile for civilians, etc.

I like picking up old gun mags from the 40s through the current days and seeing what was being sold and by who. Very interesting.

Because of the U.S. presence the 1911 in both 45 and 38 Super became popular throughout Central and South America and in the Phillipines.

Europe walked a different path.

Remember on the eve of the Second World War the Spanish had the 9mm Largo, the french something else and the Italians another 9mm all together. By the end of that slaughter they all went to the 9mm Luger.

tipoc
 
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I can't resist, & the devil made me do it.:D
John Moses Browning's improvement to the 1911 was the Hi Power.
Hmmmm..................................
 
Hello to America!
OK, folks. I live in Belgium, Europe. Have read what you all have written, I can tell that I legally own the following arms: do you have a minute or two?

Heckler & Koch USP on .45
Smith & Wesson 1911 on .45
FAL on .308 (or 7.62 x 51)
Beretta 71 on .22 (3 times)
Beretta Cougar on 9 mm
Ruger Mark II and III Hunter on .22
Sig Sauer 226 on 9 mm
Marlin SS on 30.30
SIG 550 on .223
SIG STGW.57 (SIG 510) on 7.5 x 55 Swiss
Maverick Riot on cal "12"
Schmidt Rubin K31 on 7.5 x 55 Swiss
Schmidt Rubin K11 on 7.5 x 55 Swiss
Berthier on 8 mm Lebel
Ruger SP100 on .357 Magnum
Lee-Enfield N°4 MKI on 303 British
FN Browning 1922 on 7.65 mm
Superposé FEG on cal "12"


This is NOT for showing of, but for you folks to KNOW that over here in Belgium we can really chose what weapon to buy. We have to fill in a form and wait for two months to obtain a permit. Except for .22 handguns: we go to a gunshop and buy it the same day. The only thing you need is a "Shooters - Licence".
In The Netherlands, Germany France, England, Switserland.....the law is totally different in every country. In The Netherlands f.e. one can only own 5 guns. But here in Belgium we are glad to have the freedom of achieving what we want. Keep up the good work!
And why is the 9 mm so popular in Europe? Because the military, since 1914 (WW I) have adopted the 9mm in side-arms and light hand-held machine-guns. The police followed this 9 mm trend and it's still like that. You have all given the right replies on history.
Byebye.
 
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Good points and worth keeping in mind. Europe is a fairly big and diverse place. The more I generalize about it the more I'm wrong.

tipoc
 
Welocome to TFL Bingo! And thank you for you insightful post.

Each European nation has its own laws, some of them as confusing to Americans as I'm sure some American laws are confusing to Europeans. There are European gun owners and collectors to rival those in the US.

However, there is a significant difference in the overall numbers of owners. Take a thousand people in the US and you will likely find a few hundred gun owners. Take a thousand people in Europe and you will likely find a few dozen gun owners. More or less. And I'm talking about those people who own guns for enjoyment and sport, not just personal protection.
 
greghalliday wrote:
I love this thread.
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The funny thing to me is that probably 80-90% of the guys bashing the 9mm in this thread own an AR15 in 223/5.56 and consider it their go-to SHTF rifle. There is a certain irony in that. :rolleyes:
 
The basic assumption underlying some of the comments here is that American pistoleros used big bore handguns. They did but more used something else. The .31 caliber Colt model 1849 was supposedly produced in numbers of around 335,000 during the time it was in production, which was only 23 years. The Colt Single Action Army, with variations, on the other hand, was produced from 1873 to 1940 before production was suspended until the mid-1950s, and only about 357,000 being manufactured. About half of them were in .45 Colt. Around ten percent were in calibers smaller than .38-40.

In the meantime, numbers (I have no idea about actual numbers) of other revolvers, Colt, S&W, Remington, and all sorts of other names mostly forgotten, could be had in a bewildering variety of .32 and .38 calibers, some different in name only. Later, as the automatic pistol hit the market, you could select from a nice variety of little handguns in .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .38 ACP, and .380 ACP. If nothing else, Colt managed to capitalize on their use of "automatic Colt pistol" when it came to cartridge names. The more sophisticated could find a .30 Luger if they look hard enough. Those that wanted a "big gun" just used a .38 in some variation.

So, I'd have to say that Americans were never the big bore enthusiasts that some suggest, no more than they are now. As for myself, only 25% of my arsenal is big bore--one!
 
So, I'd have to say that Americans were never the big bore enthusiasts that some suggest, no more than they are now.
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Correct. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, 9mm is the most commonly sold centerfire pistol round in the U.S. Before that was true, I suspect that the .38spl held the honor.

The American gun-writing community is definitely filled with big bore enthusiasts and that gives a lot of people the impression that it's true across the board. It's not--rank and file centerfire pistol shooters in the U.S. buy more 9mm than anything else.
 
I am the proud owner of the iconic American 1911 as well as various 9mm's such as my treasured PT-92.

I love the big .45 slug, no doubt whatsoever. That being said, the modern technology encompassed in today's 9MM ammo (in addition to the invaluable firepower of 18 rounds) make it a definite rival to the effectiveness of the .45 in my opinion.

Europeans have never been about 'size matters' and what they perceive as the 'American Cowboy' mentality.

Likewise, I feel safe with either caliber.

-Cheers
 
A number of folks have made the point that the 9mm is very popular here. Smaller calibers have always outsold the larger in the U.S.

Never-the-less the U.S. is known for big bores and for good reason. Point is there was a historical reason the U.S. went with the 45 and much of Europe went with the 9mm. Historical reason the U.S. stayed with revolvers longer than much of Europe.

But there is a heck of a tendency to overgeneralize about both Europe and the U.S. Doesn't do much for accuracy.

tipoc
 
The funny thing to me is that probably 80-90% of the guys bashing the 9mm in this thread own an AR15 in 223/5.56 and consider it their go-to SHTF rifle. There is a certain irony in that.
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Nope,not myself,
All the handguns I own start at .40 caliber (10mm) and go up in caliber from there,and all the rifles I own start at .30 caliber and go up from there,heck,I don't even own a Mattel (AR) platform.
 
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