Why is the 9mm so popular in Europe?
- Thread starter 45ACPShooter
- Start date
GoFullAuto nailed it squarely on the head. Probably because he's there and lives it daily. Excellent post, thank you!
Lots of folks said "because its cheap". That's incorrect. You've got it backwards. Everybody doesn't use it because its cheap, it's cheap because everybody uses it. 40 years ago, when I began my serious interest in guns and everything that goes with them, the 9mm Luger wasn't cheap. Often it was slightly more expensive than .38Spl or .45acp, on local shelves. It was not a bargain round. Today it is, because of the volume of sales.
Likewise the idea that American cops need big guns because of how fat we are, as a people, is another red herring. It sounds reasonable, but is far from reality.
Look at US history for a while and you will see that some police agencies went to the 9mm before the US military adopted it, but not many. And many did not go to the 9mm for years after it became our service round. It has been discussed in detail before in other threads (so search), but the basic reasons the autopistol and the 9mm round took over the US police market were (not in order of importance) prestige - when the FBI adopted it, so did a lot of others, a shift in emphasis in attitudes -the war on drugs, militarization of the police, greater concern for officer safety (so police could now use hollowpoints), and mainly cost. But not the cost of the guns and ammo in 9mm, but the cost to police agencies of the purchase. Changes to seizure laws meant that police could spend seized drug money on guns/ammo, so for the depts, switching over to 9mm autos, they were nearly free. Add in slick aggressive marketing by several gunmakers, and the 9mm becomes the dominant US police round in a few short years. And as a result of that, becomes hugely popular in the private sector as well.
As already noted, European police are armed by the central govt. Individual depts don't have the luxury of / have to shoulder the burden of buying their own guns. The choice is made by politicians, advised by the "experts", and everybody gets the same stuff.
Mentioned was the 72 Olympics and the change in attitudes concurrent with the rise of terrorism in Europe afterwards. The officials decided that the 9mm was needed for police (among other things) and so that's what the police got.
Now here is another factor, political (meaning bureaucratic) opinions. The Miami fiasco generated political conclusions that led to the move away from the 9mm round. Our "best and brightest" agents couldn't have screwed the pooch so badly, something else must have been at fault, and the blame landed on the 9mm. This eventually led to the .40 S&W. Note that while searching for a replacement for the 9mm, the FBI authorised its agents to (go back to) use the .357mag (.38SPL+P) and the .45ACP!
In Europe, there was no such decision as a result of any percieved "failures" of 9mms.
Short answer for this one, it splits the difference in size between 9mm and .45, so the bigger bullet appeals to the large bore faction, it works in 9mm frame size guns, appealing to the magazine capacity faction, and it works tolerably well, appealing to the on the street faction. And, mostly, its not the 9mm (which the FBI said failed) and it isn't the .45 (which is too old fashioned). We have a cultural bias towards the newest, latest and greatest, so we are constantly re-inventing the wheel. And, since the new wheels do roll aceptably well, we are happy.
The 9mm has been, and will continue to be the European round of choice for combat. Its our choice now too. It is an efficient and effective round today (which, in the US wasn't always the case) and has become the world standard everywhere, excepting only those former ComBloc nations still using their own standards.
Lots of folks said "because its cheap". That's incorrect. You've got it backwards. Everybody doesn't use it because its cheap, it's cheap because everybody uses it. 40 years ago, when I began my serious interest in guns and everything that goes with them, the 9mm Luger wasn't cheap. Often it was slightly more expensive than .38Spl or .45acp, on local shelves. It was not a bargain round. Today it is, because of the volume of sales.
Likewise the idea that American cops need big guns because of how fat we are, as a people, is another red herring. It sounds reasonable, but is far from reality.
Look at US history for a while and you will see that some police agencies went to the 9mm before the US military adopted it, but not many. And many did not go to the 9mm for years after it became our service round. It has been discussed in detail before in other threads (so search), but the basic reasons the autopistol and the 9mm round took over the US police market were (not in order of importance) prestige - when the FBI adopted it, so did a lot of others, a shift in emphasis in attitudes -the war on drugs, militarization of the police, greater concern for officer safety (so police could now use hollowpoints), and mainly cost. But not the cost of the guns and ammo in 9mm, but the cost to police agencies of the purchase. Changes to seizure laws meant that police could spend seized drug money on guns/ammo, so for the depts, switching over to 9mm autos, they were nearly free. Add in slick aggressive marketing by several gunmakers, and the 9mm becomes the dominant US police round in a few short years. And as a result of that, becomes hugely popular in the private sector as well.
As already noted, European police are armed by the central govt. Individual depts don't have the luxury of / have to shoulder the burden of buying their own guns. The choice is made by politicians, advised by the "experts", and everybody gets the same stuff.
Mentioned was the 72 Olympics and the change in attitudes concurrent with the rise of terrorism in Europe afterwards. The officials decided that the 9mm was needed for police (among other things) and so that's what the police got.
Now here is another factor, political (meaning bureaucratic) opinions. The Miami fiasco generated political conclusions that led to the move away from the 9mm round. Our "best and brightest" agents couldn't have screwed the pooch so badly, something else must have been at fault, and the blame landed on the 9mm. This eventually led to the .40 S&W. Note that while searching for a replacement for the 9mm, the FBI authorised its agents to (go back to) use the .357mag (.38SPL+P) and the .45ACP!
In Europe, there was no such decision as a result of any percieved "failures" of 9mms.
Short answer for this one, it splits the difference in size between 9mm and .45, so the bigger bullet appeals to the large bore faction, it works in 9mm frame size guns, appealing to the magazine capacity faction, and it works tolerably well, appealing to the on the street faction. And, mostly, its not the 9mm (which the FBI said failed) and it isn't the .45 (which is too old fashioned). We have a cultural bias towards the newest, latest and greatest, so we are constantly re-inventing the wheel. And, since the new wheels do roll aceptably well, we are happy.
The 9mm has been, and will continue to be the European round of choice for combat. Its our choice now too. It is an efficient and effective round today (which, in the US wasn't always the case) and has become the world standard everywhere, excepting only those former ComBloc nations still using their own standards.
Death from Afar
New member
Its actually pretty popular all over the world, chaps.
WANT A LCR 22LR
New member
"" Here in the US, well-fed heifers are the rule, not the exception. ""
Knowing someone that deals with peoples eating issues on a professional level, it isn't that they are "well fed", it is because the processed foods so popular now have little to no nutrition requiring people to eat more just to stay afloat.
Now for what round is popular where. I really think it is part of the world based more than anything else. If a Euro police dept in the days pre internet need new guns, they would likely contact Euro gun makers then buy what they had to offer. I'm sure at some point there was caliber creep to more modern sizes.
In the US, guns evolved similarly and the 38 short / 38 special / 357 mag was used because it was here.
I'm guessing the 45 ACP got a foot hold due to WW 2 , they when trade between Europe normalized the 9 showed up as a useful economically round. It also might have something to do with US gov depts being pushed towards buy American.
Apple Mac could have been the standard operating system but, Apple didn't want to license it.
Sony Beta Max ( a superior format ) could have been the standard if Sony would have licensed it like JVC did with VHS.
Knowing someone that deals with peoples eating issues on a professional level, it isn't that they are "well fed", it is because the processed foods so popular now have little to no nutrition requiring people to eat more just to stay afloat.
Now for what round is popular where. I really think it is part of the world based more than anything else. If a Euro police dept in the days pre internet need new guns, they would likely contact Euro gun makers then buy what they had to offer. I'm sure at some point there was caliber creep to more modern sizes.
In the US, guns evolved similarly and the 38 short / 38 special / 357 mag was used because it was here.
I'm guessing the 45 ACP got a foot hold due to WW 2 , they when trade between Europe normalized the 9 showed up as a useful economically round. It also might have something to do with US gov depts being pushed towards buy American.
Apple Mac could have been the standard operating system but, Apple didn't want to license it.
Sony Beta Max ( a superior format ) could have been the standard if Sony would have licensed it like JVC did with VHS.
I'll go back to my original intended message:They use it because it works for them.
Regardless of cost, politics, fatties, global warming, the green movement, lobbyists, and the mob, the 9mms work for the Euros and others.
Despite the afore mentioned, if the 9mm did not work it would not be as popular around the world. When I say "it works", I mean, of course as well as any handgun round can be expected to, particularly a semi-auto round.
I have faith even the French would not use a round that was ineffective.
Peachy
Regardless of cost, politics, fatties, global warming, the green movement, lobbyists, and the mob, the 9mms work for the Euros and others.
Despite the afore mentioned, if the 9mm did not work it would not be as popular around the world. When I say "it works", I mean, of course as well as any handgun round can be expected to, particularly a semi-auto round.
I have faith even the French would not use a round that was ineffective.
Peachy
Seriously, because we are fat? Come on...
The 9mm penetrates as well as the .45 ACP and others, when it's not outperforming them through hard barriers. Guess it has no problem getting through fat people if it goes through a military PASGT helmet, which would stop a .45 cold. Muscle is more dense and heavier than fat...guess that means BGs who work out should be able to peel the 9mm bullet off their skin like it hit a steel plate.
The 9mm works as well as all the others commonly used. The difference is we try to get every perceived edge we can. (Perceived because it has not been shown that the increase results in any better performance.) We grow up thinking everything bigger is better, so why would it be different for handgun caliber? It's usually nonsense, but it's part of our culture.
The 9mm penetrates as well as the .45 ACP and others, when it's not outperforming them through hard barriers. Guess it has no problem getting through fat people if it goes through a military PASGT helmet, which would stop a .45 cold. Muscle is more dense and heavier than fat...guess that means BGs who work out should be able to peel the 9mm bullet off their skin like it hit a steel plate.
The 9mm works as well as all the others commonly used. The difference is we try to get every perceived edge we can. (Perceived because it has not been shown that the increase results in any better performance.) We grow up thinking everything bigger is better, so why would it be different for handgun caliber? It's usually nonsense, but it's part of our culture.
I would hazard a guess that considering many European countries due to their laws do not have a domestic civilian handgun market, meaning that all police weapons typically dwell on military pistols. The US included uses a standard issue pistol (the M9) chambered in 9MM. I am not from Europe so I do not have insight but do local police forces buy from the same sources as the Military(direct?) or surplus military pistols?
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
Because in Europe the goblins, like the citizens, are wimpier than they are in the good ol' U S of A! 
Any of you guys consider the criminal variety in Europe is not de-raged mind altering-drug fueled maniac who wont go down with a 9mm? I keeed I keeed. 
Anyway in places where they might have that variety, the Police are indiscriminate executionaers who are a law all onto themselves... I am sure you know a few examples I am refering to. Sooo, the Police win no matter what. And due to these factors, BG wont be putting up too much of a fight if they have a rat sized brain.
Look at Africa, they have 9mm and 308 elephant killer ammo when 9mm fails. Oh, and corrateral damage is not a concern of theirs. And if you really **** them off, they will kill you follow you into your grave kill you some more.. and when theyt are done, they will go harrase your kids and close relatives just for fun. They have laws, but the laws are not worth what they are writen on. The cops are right and that's the end of the story. They do whatever they well damn choose to do with BG and those guilty by association. That is usually enough to scare the toughest BG into submission.
I once was on a vacation in Africa and noted the cops have machine guns in their jeeps at road blocks. The guy flagging down cars is usually unarmed save for a billy club he will be giving the offender a beating with if he so chooses. If he has a gun, its a puny .380 revolver. You know what, no one runs. I asked one of the officers after our tour van was stopped. The guy laughed and said, "If they run, we are cleared of all legal liability if we shoot the bastard dead." I was like what? Yup, true. If you run they don't even bother run after you. They simply radio their buddies and you get executed on sight. Yes even if you surrender. And if you are in a car, machine gun comes out and they just open up on the car ask questions about who the dead are later. You have to really whacked out crazy and begging for death to even think about it. Case in point ---> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349210/Plain-clothes-policeman-shot-men-point-blank-range-Kenya-street.html PLEASE NO DEREGATORY COMMENTS. That country is beautiful as are majority of its kind hearted friendly folk. Yup cops too, just don't cross them. Think about, it and be thankful we have rights here dam!!!
Anyway in places where they might have that variety, the Police are indiscriminate executionaers who are a law all onto themselves... I am sure you know a few examples I am refering to. Sooo, the Police win no matter what. And due to these factors, BG wont be putting up too much of a fight if they have a rat sized brain. Look at Africa, they have 9mm and 308 elephant killer ammo when 9mm fails. Oh, and corrateral damage is not a concern of theirs. And if you really **** them off, they will kill you follow you into your grave kill you some more.. and when theyt are done, they will go harrase your kids and close relatives just for fun. They have laws, but the laws are not worth what they are writen on. The cops are right and that's the end of the story. They do whatever they well damn choose to do with BG and those guilty by association. That is usually enough to scare the toughest BG into submission.
I once was on a vacation in Africa and noted the cops have machine guns in their jeeps at road blocks. The guy flagging down cars is usually unarmed save for a billy club he will be giving the offender a beating with if he so chooses. If he has a gun, its a puny .380 revolver. You know what, no one runs. I asked one of the officers after our tour van was stopped. The guy laughed and said, "If they run, we are cleared of all legal liability if we shoot the bastard dead." I was like what? Yup, true. If you run they don't even bother run after you. They simply radio their buddies and you get executed on sight. Yes even if you surrender. And if you are in a car, machine gun comes out and they just open up on the car ask questions about who the dead are later. You have to really whacked out crazy and begging for death to even think about it. Case in point ---> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349210/Plain-clothes-policeman-shot-men-point-blank-range-Kenya-street.html
PLEASE NO DEREGATORY COMMENTS. That country is beautiful as are majority of its kind hearted friendly folk. Yup cops too, just don't cross them. Think about, it and be thankful we have rights here dam!!!WildBill45
New member
It is euro-crap...
Two different worlds! They live in crowded small countries, and everything is small, their cars, their houses, their guns, and their freedom.
We live in a big country, and everything is big, our country so we have Big road cars, our houses are big, our criminals are big so we have big guns, and our freedom is Big so we have Big choices.
That is why!
Go USA
GO STEELERS!!!
Two different worlds! They live in crowded small countries, and everything is small, their cars, their houses, their guns, and their freedom.
We live in a big country, and everything is big, our country so we have Big road cars, our houses are big, our criminals are big so we have big guns, and our freedom is Big so we have Big choices.
That is why!
Go USA
GO STEELERS!!!
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GoFullAuto
Inactive
Still an EU point of view, in general there is much less debate about "stopping power" here in EU. Guns are meant to kill, not "stop". If it punches through (and 9mm FMJ does...), it kills, and that's consider evil enough. Any expanding bullet etc. looks like "overkill", wilful extra damage on a person you are already "victimizing" (BGs are soooo much defended, on both sides of the Atlantic, I gather...).
As said before, this is also thanks to "wimpier" Euro BGs - you very seldom have serious gunfights with police forces. You never hear of BG who keeps firing after being hit (Miami, etc.). Such is the cultural fear of guns here, that hit BGs get scared and run away, maybe to die 1 minute later. No urgency for "drop - down" bullets, therefore. What Army and Police use is "right", no need (and some bad looks from non-shooters) to look further.
We may say there's a kind of "cultural stopping power" (BG stops his action by fear rather than K.O.), for which 9mm FMJ is already effective. This is a bit far - stretched but maybe it's true!
The downside is: many self defense shootings get the (rightful) shooter in trouble because police find many bullets in BG, especially flank and back. Reason is simple: shooter (scared as hell) sees BG standing after 1st shot and keeps firing... while BG (scared as hell) spins 180° and starts running away. The longer the panic-fire string, the more bullets landing on the back. That looks like execution, so investigation gets complex and judges must go all the way.
Nice to see some perspective from the USA
By
GfA
As said before, this is also thanks to "wimpier" Euro BGs - you very seldom have serious gunfights with police forces. You never hear of BG who keeps firing after being hit (Miami, etc.). Such is the cultural fear of guns here, that hit BGs get scared and run away, maybe to die 1 minute later. No urgency for "drop - down" bullets, therefore. What Army and Police use is "right", no need (and some bad looks from non-shooters) to look further.
We may say there's a kind of "cultural stopping power" (BG stops his action by fear rather than K.O.), for which 9mm FMJ is already effective. This is a bit far - stretched but maybe it's true!
The downside is: many self defense shootings get the (rightful) shooter in trouble because police find many bullets in BG, especially flank and back. Reason is simple: shooter (scared as hell) sees BG standing after 1st shot and keeps firing... while BG (scared as hell) spins 180° and starts running away. The longer the panic-fire string, the more bullets landing on the back. That looks like execution, so investigation gets complex and judges must go all the way.
Nice to see some perspective from the USA
By
GfA
1960s and 70s redux
I remember that when I first started following firearms news in the papers and magazines in the 60s, there was a big movement in the cities in the Northeast US to safeguard "the right of the criminal to be rehabilitated." It was from that "logic" that the use of effective rounds became controversial.
If I recall correctly, the Netherlands police at the time were issued .25 caliber handguns with the comment from some political figure that this done so that if they had to fire at somebody, they were less likely to hurt them.
Just to show some of the ignorance about handguns and handgun calibers back then, the iconic James Bond was told to get rid of his puny .32 caliber Beretta and use the more powerful 7.65 Walther (for the unclued, that's the same caliber only in metric).
After the Munich Olympics, the hijackings of planes to the Jordanian desert, and other terrorist acts, most European agencies generally went for the more powerful military rounds.
I note that somebody said that the UK police are unarmed. That's not entirely true, and they certainly don't conduct raids unarmed. There are armed police and unarmed police. The beat cop is unarmed, but can call on armed backup if needed. When we were in England back in 2006, we visited Windsor Castle. The side gate where we left the bus (near the seated statue of Queen Victoria) was patrolled by a middle-aged uniformed policewoman who carried a submachine gun on a sling. She wasn't the only police person so armed.
I remember that when I first started following firearms news in the papers and magazines in the 60s, there was a big movement in the cities in the Northeast US to safeguard "the right of the criminal to be rehabilitated." It was from that "logic" that the use of effective rounds became controversial.
If I recall correctly, the Netherlands police at the time were issued .25 caliber handguns with the comment from some political figure that this done so that if they had to fire at somebody, they were less likely to hurt them.
Just to show some of the ignorance about handguns and handgun calibers back then, the iconic James Bond was told to get rid of his puny .32 caliber Beretta and use the more powerful 7.65 Walther (for the unclued, that's the same caliber only in metric).
After the Munich Olympics, the hijackings of planes to the Jordanian desert, and other terrorist acts, most European agencies generally went for the more powerful military rounds.
I note that somebody said that the UK police are unarmed. That's not entirely true, and they certainly don't conduct raids unarmed. There are armed police and unarmed police. The beat cop is unarmed, but can call on armed backup if needed. When we were in England back in 2006, we visited Windsor Castle. The side gate where we left the bus (near the seated statue of Queen Victoria) was patrolled by a middle-aged uniformed policewoman who carried a submachine gun on a sling. She wasn't the only police person so armed.
Guns are strictly utilitarian in Europe. 9mm works, so that's what they use. In the US, half of our Nation are Gun aficionados. And, compared to the average European, the Average American is a highly trained firearms expert. US firearms consumers naturally are more expert, more demanding and better informed than people living in Europe who have little to no access to guns. You can't help but have such a vast civilian expertise on gun matters flow over into the US military and law enforcement.
If Europeans were free, they would utilize more calibers other than simply 9mm. I wouldn't look at what the Europeans do and try to copy it - when it comes to firearms, they are, ON AVERAGE (i.e. not everyone) ill informed and bare minimalists.
If Europeans were free, they would utilize more calibers other than simply 9mm. I wouldn't look at what the Europeans do and try to copy it - when it comes to firearms, they are, ON AVERAGE (i.e. not everyone) ill informed and bare minimalists.
Skans has a great reply. Most Americans, at least the men (provided their grandfathers were born here), are expert with pistols and rightly believe the most important weapons the army has are pistols and since the 9mm was adopted, presumably by force, everything has been downhill ever since.
cosmicdingo
New member
Some weird **** on this blog.Europeans obviously have less freedom, life force and body fat.The 9 should be sufficient to kill/depress the small living people.Because they're slaves.Okay , being facetious.