oneounceload
Moderator
Most folks in Europe can NOT own 9X19; rather they have 9x17, 9x18, 9x21, 9x23 and 356TSW. 9x19, being a military round, typically makes it not available for civilian use
Why is the 9mm so popular in Europe?
- Thread starter 45ACPShooter
- Start date
Agreed. It's not like their unarmed. One thing you see in Europe, at least in German airports, are more Police carrying submachine guns. Carrying a submachine gun and pistol in the same caliber make a lot of sense.
You might question the stopping power of a 9mm from a pistol, but from a submachine gun the 124 grain round will reach 1250 to 1300 fps. That's close to .357 magnum levels at 600 rpm. At close range that's going to be effective.
Here's a report about London officers...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33448132/ns/world_news-europe/
Can you imagine seeing an officer carrying an MP5 or Uzi while patrolling in downtown NYC?
You might question the stopping power of a 9mm from a pistol, but from a submachine gun the 124 grain round will reach 1250 to 1300 fps. That's close to .357 magnum levels at 600 rpm. At close range that's going to be effective.
Here's a report about London officers...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33448132/ns/world_news-europe/
Can you imagine seeing an officer carrying an MP5 or Uzi while patrolling in downtown NYC?
Seven High
New member
I was a participant in the "cold war" in the mid sixties. I was stationed in W. Germany. On numerous occasions I saw two German police officers crawl out of a VW bug and arrest an intoxicated pedestrian. One was armed with a P1 and the other had a sub machine gun. They did not have a lot of room for equipment in their VW bugs. They had to stuff the drunk into the back seat and take him to jail. 
I thought, and I could very well be wrong, that the CZ was somewhere around third place...maybe second. I believe the Hi Power and it's clones (totaling some 11+ million) is the most common pistol, followed by either the CZ or the Makarov.
I don't know where Glock is on the list, but it is somewhere well below the Mak, Tok, SIG and Beretta pistols.
I also don't know what glocks total manufacture numbers are I was told at one point that over half of them are in the United States. Glocks market saturation in the rest of the world is somewhat limited.
However, you have to give them credit for being a marketing powerhouse.
HorseSoldier
New member
A big part of the equation probably has to do with the fact that, so far as I know, no European law enforcement agency has ever tried to trot out weapon caliber as a convenient scapegoat to cover up systemic flaws in how they do business, officer errors on the ground, and a chain of command that was negligent in letting guys go cowboying off to their deaths, a la the FBI and their Miami debacle.
In other words, the 9x19 round is at least partly uncommon in American law enforcement holsters because of the post-WW2 American cultural fixation with avoiding responsibility and accountability. That particular bit of rot in the wood doesn't just limit itself to old ladies spilling McDonalds coffee in their laps. :barf:
In other words, the 9x19 round is at least partly uncommon in American law enforcement holsters because of the post-WW2 American cultural fixation with avoiding responsibility and accountability. That particular bit of rot in the wood doesn't just limit itself to old ladies spilling McDonalds coffee in their laps. :barf:
Because it works as good or better than anything else. There are probably far more 9mm rounds fired in this country than any other centerfire reond as well. Not just a European thing.
I doubt CZ is any where near the most common pistol. CZ does have some creative advertising to make you think so however.
I doubt CZ is any where near the most common pistol. CZ does have some creative advertising to make you think so however.
Diggerdawg
New member
I see NYPD carrying MP5's every day in Grand Central Station. Things have changed a bit since 9/11.
Granted these are Emergency Services officers stationed in crowded places like Grand Central and Times Square. You don't see the average cop in NYC carrying a submachine gun. But I see them everyday when I commute through Grand Central.
I always wonder if they are select fire / full auto or just semi-auto. I assume full auto and I assume 9mm since that is the handgun caliber for NYPD. Does anyone know?
Granted these are Emergency Services officers stationed in crowded places like Grand Central and Times Square. You don't see the average cop in NYC carrying a submachine gun. But I see them everyday when I commute through Grand Central.
I always wonder if they are select fire / full auto or just semi-auto. I assume full auto and I assume 9mm since that is the handgun caliber for NYPD. Does anyone know?
stephen426
New member
peachy said:
Peachy beat me to it. In the US, the rate of obesity is much higher than anywhere else in the world. Pretty soon, police officers will need to carry elephant guns around. Either that or they won't have to shoot at all since the bad guys will just die of heart diease.
Because the 9mm is a very size efficient caliber. When properly loaded it hits hard, packs lots of rounds, is low in recoil and muzzle blast and contrary to what many might tell you it works. And it works as well as any of the service caliber rounds. Not saying alot since all handgun rounds are lousy stoppers. But it works well enough or it wouldn't have been around for over 100 years.
HorseSoldier
New member
I don't know about that -- if that were a valid line of argument then we'd expect to see officers in Samoa jumping on 500S&W revolvers like a hobo on a ham sandwich, and that doesn't seem to be the case.
Neither of the suspects involved in the FBI's Miami fiasco were obese at all and if I'm not mistaken, LAPD and NYPD have killed a lot of fat guys along the way in officer involved shootings with 9mm handguns.
My 2-cents before reading the other posts. 9mm is cheap, standard, reliable, effective and can be loaded to higher capacities. If I were hired by the government to face possible multiple attackers on a daily basis, I'm going to want that large capacity. 7 rounds of .45 might be good for self protection, but it wouldn't be my choice for confronting multiple attackers.
GoFullAuto
Inactive
Hello everybody. Some European (Italy) insight 
It's amazing to notice how emotional are the choices on firearm caliber. At all levels, private and professional. Day 1, BG is hit square but won't go down --> must have Bigger Gun. Day 2, goodguy runs out of ammo --> should have had more capacity, etc.
Added to these emotional currents you have long term, "social culture" (what opinion leaders think).
In EU, the man on the street has culturally no right to firearms. What is right and what not, in guns, is decided by professionals (military, police, etc.). They are "culturally justified" for being armed, nobody else is.
So, what the professionals see fit has some justification (Geneva convention etc.). Anything smaller is OK, anything bigger is "politically maniac". If a local police force asked to upgrade to 40 or 45, man, I can already hear the wails of pacifists, commies (still lots of those here...), greenies (can't imagine what's the deal for environmentalists, but they just poke their nose in anything) and the general we-are-no-wild-west public. It would be near impossible.
The shooting community (as is often the case) follow what professionals choose. I should also say, IPSC / IDPA is getting more and more trendy here, so muzzle flip control gets higher and higher on priority.The lower ammo price does the rest.
So all forces here stick to the 9mm FMJ sizzlers, and true to form you read lots of situations where BG dies a few MINUTES after being hit, running away, driving away etc. We're lucky our BGs are not so combative as in the US: single desperados are poorly armed, while organized crime (mafia etc.) have AKs and RPGs but prefer avoiding real gun battles - it's smarter to surrender and go through our soft system.
Personally, I keep my .40 loaded with FMJ (mandatory) with the flattest point I could find. For home defense. Anything else, I'm unarmed by law. Goooood thing, our BGs are (almost always) not so combative.
Keep your gun rights, amigos... at least sometimes we can dream of a place where we could really live our wildest recreational shooting fantasies
By
GfA
It's amazing to notice how emotional are the choices on firearm caliber. At all levels, private and professional. Day 1, BG is hit square but won't go down --> must have Bigger Gun. Day 2, goodguy runs out of ammo --> should have had more capacity, etc.
Added to these emotional currents you have long term, "social culture" (what opinion leaders think).
In EU, the man on the street has culturally no right to firearms. What is right and what not, in guns, is decided by professionals (military, police, etc.). They are "culturally justified" for being armed, nobody else is.
So, what the professionals see fit has some justification (Geneva convention etc.). Anything smaller is OK, anything bigger is "politically maniac". If a local police force asked to upgrade to 40 or 45, man, I can already hear the wails of pacifists, commies (still lots of those here...), greenies (can't imagine what's the deal for environmentalists, but they just poke their nose in anything) and the general we-are-no-wild-west public. It would be near impossible.
The shooting community (as is often the case) follow what professionals choose. I should also say, IPSC / IDPA is getting more and more trendy here, so muzzle flip control gets higher and higher on priority.The lower ammo price does the rest.
So all forces here stick to the 9mm FMJ sizzlers, and true to form you read lots of situations where BG dies a few MINUTES after being hit, running away, driving away etc. We're lucky our BGs are not so combative as in the US: single desperados are poorly armed, while organized crime (mafia etc.) have AKs and RPGs but prefer avoiding real gun battles - it's smarter to surrender and go through our soft system.
Personally, I keep my .40 loaded with FMJ (mandatory) with the flattest point I could find. For home defense. Anything else, I'm unarmed by law. Goooood thing, our BGs are (almost always) not so combative.
Keep your gun rights, amigos... at least sometimes we can dream of a place where we could really live our wildest recreational shooting fantasies
By
GfA
aarondhgraham
New member
U. S. Popularity,,,
It wasn't all that popular until the US Military went to it a bit over 25 years ago,,,
I'm not saying no one used the round, but it wasn't wildly popular either.
Aarond
It wasn't all that popular until the US Military went to it a bit over 25 years ago,,,
I'm not saying no one used the round, but it wasn't wildly popular either.
Aarond
Mike Irwin
Staff
There may be another element of it...
As I understand it, most of the police forces in Europe are armed by the national governments, even the small police forces.
Selection and procurement are, unlike here, done at a high centralized level.
Basically they take what they are given, and in a lot of cases it appears that the thinking follows military thinking as far as ammo and weapons are concerned.
As I understand it, most of the police forces in Europe are armed by the national governments, even the small police forces.
Selection and procurement are, unlike here, done at a high centralized level.
Basically they take what they are given, and in a lot of cases it appears that the thinking follows military thinking as far as ammo and weapons are concerned.