why is the 357 superior to the 9?

I think the answer is

The .357 can easily exceed 9mm speed by 200 FPS, and the .357 bullets tend to expand better, hold together better at higher velocities (IME) and the added energy allows those expanded bullets to penetrate deeper. Also, I think the data for the .357 is probably skewed toward more diciplined shooters, i.e., LEOs who know they only have 6 shots. I don't know how many times I have seen guys with wondernines spray a whole magazine at a suspect and fail to get a single hit. This is just my own theory though.

Either caliber can do the job given the right ammo, shooter etc. though.

Shooter429
 
I think that considering the muzzle blast when speaking of the efficiency of a given round (any, really, up to artillery) is wrong. Only the muzzle velocity of the bullet (of a given weight) is important--for measuring efficiency. So if you can get a higher velocity out of a short barrel revolver by using a slow burning powder instead of a fast burning powder, then that's better and at least by this criteria, more efficient.

Mind you, that doesn't mean the muzzle blast can be ignored. I never could. But I would never fire more than one cylinder full at a time anyway. That was enough for training purposes, I thought. The .357 has a lot of blast and so do the .41 and .44 magnums, but the .357 has nowhere near the kick, at least with the lighter bullets.

Muzzle flash (the fireball effect) is actually another characteristic and is a function of the powder also. Supposedly military loads, say for a .45 ACP, have a flash supressant added but I have no details. The 7.62 Tokarev is said to have a big muzzle flash but I've not seen one fired.

If you want to see real muzzle blast, find someone who has a recoilless rifle and let him show you what I mean.
 
skewing of streestats?

funon1 wrote:
"Also, I think the data for the .357 is probably skewed toward more diciplined shooters, i.e., LEOs who know they only have 6 shots. I don't know how many times I have seen guys with wondernines spray a whole magazine at a suspect and fail to get a single hit. This is just my own theory though."

my original question was primarily regarding the internal ballistics of the two cartridges, but i do think you are bringing up a very interesting sidetrack on the "street-stats" here. i often wondered why e.g. the 44 mag performs worse than the 357 in the real world and the only thing i could speculate in was that the 44 mag was more often fired by a hunter/homeowner stumbling out of his bed, whereas the 357 was more likely to be discharged by a LEO on duty.

the marshall & sannow definition of a qualifying shot included a fairly generous target area and i have no doubt that a 357 round (or a 32 acp for that matter) in the spine is going to drop a target much faster than just about any handcanon round that "only" scores a single-lung hit.

if this is true, it could make all the popular service calibers look better than they really are because their users on the average is better trained. and it could potentially make revolver cartridges look better than autoloaders. again, this is of course pure speculation.
 
Reading comprehension...

Jim March said:

Pogo2: you're quoting the wrong section of BuffBore's site, maybe for the "lite load" flavor. For data on their full-power stuff, go here:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=103

Their full-house 125 is hitting 1603fps from a 4" S&W L-frame. That completely spanks any 9mm load out there.
Click to expand...

After I went to all that trouble to carefully qualify my comment, saying that I was comparing with moderate .357 magnum loads and not heavy hunting loads, you ignore what I said.
 
Studies, compiled statistics, lies, and damn lies...

While studies and statistics, properly compiled, and presented can give reasonable indication of overall trends. But they should neither be consided, nor quoted as gospel.

One shot stops are a fine abstract goal, but there is no earthly way for any researcher to compile comparative statistics that are actually meaningful. And this is not due to any lack of dilligence on the part of the researchers, but on the simple fact that compiling the data ALWAYS lacks critical information as to why the individual that was stopped, actually stopped.

There are so many different things, including the mindset of the person getting stopped, that play a role that is impossible to quantify. One may accurately report the observed results, but conclusions drawn from those results are opinion, not fact.

When comparing the 9mm and the .357 magnum, it wold be well to look where those rounds started, and where they have wound up today. The "effective" 9mm rounds have only been around for a fairly short time. For many decades, the 9mm was a less effective SD round than it is today. Ask your self why it is that a 9mm+P+ round even exists?

And as the 9mm has been "uploaded" with increased pressures and better preforming bullets, the .357 has been effectively "downloaded" from its original loadings, to allow it to be used in light weight guns. Bullet technology has improved, which allows the .357 to retain its observed advantage in efectiveness, even though velocities and presures are not what they were back in 1935.
 
There are a lot of responses here about projectile velocity. I would disagree with this argument as a basis for 9mm v. 357mag. I'm no expert, but IMHO, I consider kinetic energy to be the determining factor. Yes, velocity is important, but velocity + mass is where it's at. For example, from an older blog post (http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/2005/08/handgun-ballistics-comparing-stopping.html): "A 125 grain Semi-jacketed hollow-point bullet loaded for .357 magnum can deliver 427 foot pounds of energy at 50 yards, while a 124 grain jacketed hollow-point bullet loaded in 9mm Luger can deliver 291 foot pounds at 50 yards. A 185 grain jacketed hollow-point bullet loaded in .45 ACP can deliver 372 foot pounds at 50 yards." To me, this illustrates the superior stopping power of .357mag round.
 
Thank you guys, a very informing post. I learn some thing every day. It's nice to read a post that has no flaming or someone beating on there chest trying to tell everybody they know it all, or what model of a gun is better than the other. I don't think anyone was beating a dead horse either. ;)
 
.357 Magnum is able to achieve higher veolcities and use heavier bullets without exceeding the pressures of the 9mm because of is larger case capacity. In a nut shell, it takes more of the same powder to reach a given pressure in a large case than it does in a small one.

With regards to power when the cartridges are compared for self-defense, the .357 Magnum undoubtedly has more power.

If we look at true top end loadings for both from Double Tap, we find that from a 4" Ruger GP100, the 125grn .357 Magnum loading bests the 124grn +P 9mm from a Glock 17 by 290fps. Even when fired from a 1 7/8" barrel Snubby, the .357 Magnum still bests the G17's 9mm velocities by 115fps. Both of these loadings are marketed by Double Tap as self defense loadings (125grn is typically considered to be a bit light for hunting).

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=48

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=120

Likewise, the ballistic advantage of the .357 Magnum remains just as apparent when heavy bullets are factored into the equation. Double Tap's 158grn .357 Magnum load from a 4" GP100 bests their 147grn +P 9mm load from a G17 by 265fps and does it with a bullet 9grn heavier. Even when fired from a snubby, the 158grn .357 is still 110fps faster than the 147grn 9mm.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=49

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=121

If we look outside of Double Tap's loadings and examine those of the more "mainstream" manufacturers, we still see that the .357 Magnum has a distinct ballistic advantage. For example, Winchester's 125grn .357 Magnum loading is listed at 1450fps from an unlisted barrel lenght while their 127grn +P+ Ranger loading is listed at 1250fps from an unlisted barrel length (I assume 4" barrels in most cases as that's the length than most other manufacturers list similar loadings with similar velocities from). This gives the .357 Magnum a 200fps advantage.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=X3576P&cart=MzU3IE1hZ251bQ==

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA9TA&cart=OW1tIEx1Z2VyIFA=

When we compare the heavier bullets, we see that Winchester's 145grn .357 Magnum Silvertips best both the 147grn 9mm Silvertips, the 147grn 9mm Supreme T-Series, and the 147grn Rangers by 280fps, 300fps, and 300fps respectively. Winchester lists all of these velocities from 4" barrels.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=X357SHP&cart=MzU3IE1hZ251bQ==

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=S9&cart=OW1tIEx1Z2Vy

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=RA9T&cart=OW1tIEx1Z2Vy

Finally, much is made of the difference in measuring barrels between semi-automatics and revolvers. It is often claimed that if the barrels were measured the same way, the 9mm would match or exceed the velocities of the .357 Magnum. However, a look at Ballistics by the inch's website proves this to be untrue as all velocities are taken from T/C Encore barrels measured in the same manner as those of semi-automatics. If we discount the 2" barrel velocity (this would be approximately a 3/4" barrel on a revolver) since few if any guns in these two calibers have barrels that short, we find the .357 Magnum outperforms the 9mm in every load at every barrel length except the Cor-Bon 110grn .357 JHP which is slightly outperformed by the Cor-Bon 115grn 9mm +P JHP in 4" and shorter barrels.
 
The .357 is a proven fight stopper with a record of one shot stops at 98%. The nine don't come close.
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The One Shot Stop figures which one usually reads come from Marshal and Sanow and they are not accurate. The 9mm can be as useful as a self defense caliber as the .357. As a hunting caliber the .357 beats it easily.

The .357 Magnum round is a very useful one and is more powerful, by almost any measure for many of the reasons folks have given.

tipoc
 
I like the .357

The 9mm can be as useful as a self defense caliber as the .357. As a hunting caliber the .357 beats it easily.
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I'm curious why if the .357 is more useful than the 9MM at hunting that you still think it is as useful in SD? Iwould think that other than the various distance to take into condsideration aren't you sort of looking for a similar result.

I would assume that anything that a 9MM would stop - a .357 could have stopped. While a 9 could stop many of the realistic situations that the .357 could. There have to be some that the .357 could stop that the 9MM would not. I'm not a ballistics expert so these are all assumptions - set me straight please.
 
I'm curious why if the .357 is more useful than the 9MM at hunting that you still think it is as useful in SD? Iwould think that other than the various distance to take into condsideration aren't you sort of looking for a similar result.
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Not really the same thing. When hunting you are looking for a clean kill. So, with a .357 you may load a heavy hard-cast SWC that will punch all the way through damaging heart/lungs on the way. Two holes bleed better than one making the animal easier to track. In SD you are shooting to stop so you want the energy to dump inside the target. You don't want the bullet to exit because you are responsible for it until it stops and you don't want that happening in someone else.

I would assume that anything that a 9MM would stop - a .357 could have stopped.
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That would be more accurate the other way around. The .357 is much more versatile than the 9mm when it comes to choice of bullets and range of velocity.

On the original topic the .357mag has more velocity than the 9mm due to its larger case capacity. That allows you to use a slower powder as others have mentioned. if you loaded the two to the same pressure with a fast powder, like bullseye, they would probably have about the same velocity.
 
For me, the 357 is superior because when I'm done shooting I don't have to wander all over the place trying to find and pick up my empty brass. I reload.:p jd
 
From a 4" barrel a 127 gr. +p+ Winchester Ranger is moving at about 1250 f.p.s. or better. Remember on an automatics barrel they include the chamber as part of the barrel. So it is doing that speed from actually about a 3" of barrel. Most 125 gr. .357 Magnum loads from a 3" barrel revolver are also doing around 1250 f.p.s.. Most of the makers of the .357 Magnum round here in the U.S. far from load the .357 to it's maximum potential.
Same with a 115 gr. +p+ 9mm moving at 1350 f.p.s.. Similar again to a 110 gr. .357 Magnum. Ballistically their is very little difference between the two. The term Magnum seems to make eyes get really big. And like the .45 all sorts of legendary powers of the .357 are told. I'm not knocking the round. I carried a .357 snubby for years. It is a good round. But when it comes down to actual ballistics in the 115 +p+ vs 110 .357 Magnum and the 124-127 +p+ vs. the 125 .357 Magnum their is very little difference in performance. Both in ballistic gel and in recorded gunfights the better 9mm +p+ rounds work as well as the .357 without the muzzle flash, blast and recoil.
I know this will ruffle some feathers but their just not that much difference between the two until you get into the heavier bullet weights. The 9mm can't shoot with the 158-180 gr. .357 loads. But then again those are more for hunting. I prefer a 9mm loaded with 15+1 rounds that are roughly equivalent
to the .357 with only 5-6. Plus alot of the recoil is taken up by the slides rearward movement. Add that and th ability to reload much faster make mine 9mm +p+. Again no mater what someone may feel with good loads all the service calibers perform very similarly.
 
But any old .357mag you pick up will shoot any .357mag round you can buy.

What percent of the 9mm handguns out there are rated for +p+ ammo?

I think if we want to be fair we should compare 9mm +p+ to .357mag that can be fired in a Redhawk. ;)
Or maybe compare it to .357max?
 
What percent of the 9mm handguns out there are rated for +p+ ammo?
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Unless they are old, a Luger for example, they all are. The majority of handguns made for 9mm will accept 9mm +P+.

maustypsu, I'll try a couple of your questions. I said before that the 9mm can be as useful for self defense as the .357 this is true because of platform. Bullets don't shoot themselves, they come out of guns. For self defense the critical factor is to have a gun that the shooter can shoot accurately and at speed in a caliber that can make a difference. There are many excellent bulllets out there for the 9mm that penetrate and expand as they should. The 9mm comes in many very good guns. It's low recoil even in +P+ makes it very easy for most folks to shoot well. Shot placement trumps caliber most often for many the 9mm is as effective for SD as more powerful rounds.

The .357 Magnum was introduced as a hunting round. For hunting a fella can hunt anything from rabbit to black bear with the .357. It can be loaded up or down. A lite fast bullet for varmints or something heavier for deer. Keep in mind you can stick it in a lever gun and increase it's effectiveness and range.

Because of it's increased case capacity the .357 will take a longer heavier bullet than the 9mm will. The 9mm tops out at about a 147 gr. bullet and will only take that to about 900-1000 fps. and is maxed out in terms of pressure. With a 200 gr. bullet the .357 can get to around 1100-1200 fps from a handgun and more from a lever gun.

The 357 Magnum is a much more versatile round than the 9mm.

The .357 Sig was developed to do two things: To fit in guns the same dimensions as the 9mm and 40 S&W. and to mimic the velocities that the .357 Magnum can get with a 125 gr. bullet (between 1300-1400 fps or so). It does those two things. It's useful in a narrow window. It does not do well with bullets heavier than the 125 gr. The .357 Sig is not as useful with heavier bullets as the 38 Super or the 40 S&W are. Both easily beat the Sig round with 147 gr. loads for example.

tipoc
 
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