why is the 357 superior to the 9?

D

d94jonca

Inactive
hi,

i'm new to this forum but not to handguns. got a question that ive been thinking about for awhile that maybe you guys can help me explain:

noone would argue the 357mag has the upper hand on the 9x19. according to the marshall & sanow stats, the 357 is *the* manstopper, the 9 is ok but not nearly as good. looking at simple balistics further supports this; the 357 shoots faster and often heavier.

here is my question: why is that? they both fire 9mm projectiles, they both lists @ 35k saami max pressure and while the 357 is often loaded with heavier projectiles, the ones performing best for social work (125 grains) are well within the 9mm spectrum. so why cant a 9mm be loaded up to shoot an equivalent projectile at the same velocity? i realize that an auto-loader can never compete with the barrel of a hunting-style revolver but for todays ccw-users, the barrel lengths of the typical revoler is no longer than that of the autoloader.

so why is it that with the same barrel length, the same bullet, and the same pressure, the 357 still blows the 9mm out of the water balistically speaking?
 
Simplest answer: The .357 case holds more powder which allows for more velocity to be produced... The faster you push a bullet the harder its going to hit... Sit a .357 round next to 9 and look at how much more capacity the .357 has in comparison.
 
A picture is worth a thousand words:

DSC_0032.jpg


I would have included a 38 Special round in the picture, but I took my last 100 rounds to the range today. I shot 50 and sold the other 50 to the guy in the next booth -- for the same price I paid for them! I guess this means another trip to Wal-Mart to buy some more! I sure hope there isn't an ammo shortage!

Scott
 
Last edited:
thanks for the answers. im still a bit confused. since the 357 and the 9 have the same max pressure, and since there is enough room to blow up a 9 with many commonly used pistol powders, how is it that the 357 can utilize all that additional space with those same fast burning short-barrel powders? i would have thought the same amount of a given powder and the same weight bullet would produce similar pressures in both cartridges?

again, i understand how a 357 carbine can outperform a an equally long barrel 9mm subgun since the 357 case can be filled with a lot more of slowburning powder, suitable for the longer barrel length. i just dont see how the 357 can take advantage of its greater case capacity from a little snubbie.
 
Yep, easy answer:


SPEED




Getting run over by a Yugo powered by a JATO rocket will hurt worse that the same Yugo coasting through a parking lot. Well, OK, it might actually hurt less but it will kill you "worse". :D;)
 
d94jonca:

The 9mm creates 35kpsi in an enclosed space with half the volume of the .357.

As a result, the pressure stays higher, longer, in the .357, resulting in greater acceleration to the bullet while still affected by that backpressure.

how is it that the 357 can utilize all that additional space with those same fast burning short-barrel powders?
Click to expand...

It doesn't. Load a .357 with Win231 or other similar fast powders, and you'll get a load with similar effect to 9mm. Load that same .357 with AA2400, Win296 or H110 and you get a high pressure flame thrower with much higher velocity. The pressure builds more slowly with these magnum powders, but is sustained longer through the acceleration push. Hence, the greater velocity with Win296 than Win231 for a same given max pressure.
 
hey thanks for all the answers. seems my whole question might be moot. i know i've read that the 357 and the 9mm are both rated @35k but just checked the hogdon website and while none of their 9mm loads exceed 30k, many of their 357 loads exceed 40k. that would most certainly be part of the explanation. i guess i should have started with checking my "facts" :)

:o
 
azredhawk44:

" Load that same .357 with AA2400, Win296 or H110 and you get a high pressure flame thrower with much higher velocity. "

this is interesting. i always naively assumed that large-muzzle-flash was a sign of a too slow powder and that better performance could be had with a faster ditto. i guess i should invest in a chrono :)
 
And to answer your original question why is the 357 suprior to the 9?, it isn't necessarily superior, it is just different. It all depends on your particular application.

Scott
 
i always naively assumed that large-muzzle-flash was a sign of a too slow powder and that better performance could be had with a faster ditto.
Click to expand...

Those super-magnum snubbies like the Ruger Alaskan and Smith X-frame?

They use slow powders to push the .454, .480, .460 and .500 cartridges to the speed and energy levels they advertise.

You still get more out of an 8" barrel than you do with a 3" barrel, for sure. But, the vast bulk of your velocity is generated before the bullet leaves the forcing cone from my understanding. A good tight crimp and a slow powder can make a .44 mag snub every bit as good a hiking gun as a .44 with a longer barrel.

Several years ago I shot a friend's Freedom Arms .454 revolver with a huge barrel... I think it was about 10" long. it was near dusk, and I still got several feet of fireball out the muzzle. I think that is superheated air coming out the barrel and igniting the oxygen in the ambient atmosphere... some of it might be unburnt powder but I think it's mostly heat and pressure causing oxygen burn.
 
Apples and apples

The original poster asked:

So why is it that with the same barrel length, the same bullet, and the same pressure, the 357 still blows the 9mm out of the water ballistically speaking?
Click to expand...

I think the two calibers can be fairly close, depending upon which ammo you pick. Some of the hottest .357 loadings are really hunting loads using hard cast bullets and designed for heavy revolvers with longer barrels. If you look at the more moderate .357 loads designed for smaller CCW revolvers and reasonable recoil levels, you will find the 9mm and .357 are in the same general range.

For example, if you go to the Buffalo Bore Ammunition website, which has test data using real guns:

Buffalo Bore website

You will see the following:

124 grain 9mm JHP +P+ in a Glock 19 with 4 inch barrel = 1296 fps velocity.

125 grain .357 magnum JHP in a S&W Mountain Gun with 4 inch barrel = 1321 fps velocity.

The bullets and barrel lengths are equivalent, and the resulting velocities are within 2%. Energy would be within 4%, so I believe the two bullets would have similar effect on gelatin or a human.
 
9mm just doesn't have as much ooomphhh. You have to go all the way to +P+ (not something i particularly want to shoot), to get something close to the 357 magnum. A +P 9mm is quite a downgrade from the 357...with that said, the 9mm is still IMO plenty effective for self defense. Generally, the 357 has a slightly heavier bullet. The frontal areas are basically the same. 357 would be one of my first choices for self defense...even if given the option of using something like a 45 caliber, i'd probably still pick 357. Downsides to 357: loudness, muzzle flash & potential overpenetration.
 
About everything worth saying seems to have been said, but I'd like to add that .357 ammo can be loaded up to higher energies than a 9mm because the shooting platform is designed for it: an average midsize revolver in .357 will be a lot heavier and tank-like than an average service auto in 9mm. They are built that way so the gun can withstand the energy of the ammo going off.

Also, the mechanism of a revolver generally won't care how much or how little energy the bullet releases, whereas an auto generally needs a narrower range of energy release in order to cycle properly. So long as a revolver and its ammo are both rated within the SAAMI limit for its caliber, it will probably shoot.

There's also statistical evidence supporting the stopping effectiveness of .357 compared to other calibers. One source is here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
 
d94jonca,

The reason that the 357 magnum is capable of higher velocities with the same bullet weight is internal ballistics. The larger case of the 357 magnum allows higher velocities with the same pressures.

Internal ballistics, a subfield of ballistics, is the study of a projectile's behavior from the time its propellant's igniter is initiated until it exits the gun barrel.

There are many factors which can influence the projectile during that time frame. If you care, this link can start you on the road to learning a little about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_ballistics
 
What fireball?

azredhawk44 said:
truncated for brevity

. it was near dusk, and I still got several feet of fireball out the muzzle. I think that is superheated air coming out the barrel and igniting the oxygen in the ambient atmosphere... some of it might be unburnt powder but I think it's mostly heat and pressure causing oxygen burn.
Click to expand...
__________________
What you say is valid, but chemically incorrect.

Oxygen does not burn.

Oxygen burns stuff. The "stuff" in your fireplace is wood. In your stove is natural gas or propane. In your car is diesel oil or gasoline. Oxygen chemically combines with the "stuff" and produces great amounts of heat. Enough to cause a glow. A really bright glow. The process is called oxidation by chemists and is the diametric opposite of "reduction". It has to do with whether a molecule is gaining or losing an electron in the chemical exchange. More than that would have to send me back to high school/college chemistry.

Generally, the flame inside your gun is fed oxygen from the powder itself. The nitrates. (One atom of nitrogen and a few -usually 3 or 4- of oxygen. They get released and combine with the carbon and produce a violent, oxidizing chemical reaction that produces lots of heat very quickly. Same thing happens with a diesel-fertilizer bomb. The nitrate-rich fertilizer releases oxygen which combines with the diesel fuel to produce lots of heat very quickly. Commonly known as an explosion.

If you shoot a gun in an atmosphere with absolutely no oxygen at all, you will still get a fireball. The superheated "air" is a lot of carbon dioxide heated hot enough to glow -bright- and some unburnt powder (still burning).

The trick is to balance the speed of the powder burn to the speed of the bullet such that most of the powder is burnt (and given up its energy to the bullet) by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. The physics of the matter means that you will never achieve perfection at the same time as you maximize velocity Not even close. To get anywhere near maximum velocity necessarily means you will have to use the highest part of the pressure curve. Using the highest part of the pressure curve means you will be throwing away all the rest of the pressure curve (the tapering down portion).

That trailing end of the burn comes out the end of the barrel after the bullet has departed and is often quite spectacular as a fireball. If we could get a powder whose burn would go fast and then stop immediately without any tapering off, we could be a lot more efficient. But, alas, we are stuck with the physics and chemistry that God gave us.

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Sorry I don't have all the chemical terminology and references and stuff. I will just leave you to research the facts of internal ballistics elsewhere.

On the original question, yes what has been said before (to my understanding) is correct. The larger case allows the burn to sustain a pressure for a longer time. So, if a 9mm case/bullet/powder combination peaks at 35,000 psi and a 357 case/bullet/powder combination peaks at that same 35,000 psi, all other things being equal, the 357 will maintain 35,000 psi for a longer period of time and during its trip down the barrel, imparting more energy along the way.

Also, revolvers in general can stand more pressure than semiautos. Not, I think because of anything inherent in revolver design, but just that the springs and weight of a recoil-operated gun would have to be uncomfortably heavy to handle higher energies. I know my Coonan's recoil spring is a lot heavier than my 45 ACP.

Caveat:

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

Lost Sheep
 
I think in a snubnose revolver, 9mm might be better than .357 Magnum. It would be more efficient (less noise and muzzle blast for the same velocity) and -- assuming it used moon clips -- would reload a lot faster. The cylinder could also be shorter, cutting down on weight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top