Why did Police use the 38 Special instead of 45 Long Colt?

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Not all cops are wimps :eek:. NYSP troopers at one time carried the 45LC. But the gun and ammo choices have been an evolution.There are points where an event quickly changed things.The 32 to 38 was the first. Then the 38 to 357 .These brought about by the ineffectiveness of the rounds. A significant CA shootout started the change from revolver to auto. Another event , the FBI Miami shootout was a major change to bullet design as untill then there were NO criteria for expansion and penetration !! Another factor over the years has been the increasingly better weapons of the BGs.
The average cop now has never touched a gun until he becomes a cop and never uses his gun on the job ! And the politicians don't give them proper training !
 
Maybe I misunderstood, but who said cops were wimps? I at least was speaking about NYC where the politicians are wimps. The north LA shootout was brought to it's good conclusion because a gun store gave the PD aw's to use. He's no longer in business today. The FBI statistically have been in very few shootouts and are not street cops, so they must be put in some other category.

Your typical NYC cop in the past, as well as today like my son, have more guts than the average individual who runs away when something happens and the cop runs to it. Ballistics and all the other stuff always took a back seat when the decision was made to continue the use of the 38 special. It was smoke and mirrors that's all. A 357 couldn't be used in NYC as a service weapon for obvious reasons. Not allowing speed loaders was an idiotic decision by the powers to be as well. Seeing what happened over the years up close and personal leads most to draw an obvious conclusion. Those who don't know can guess all they like.

That .38 special caused one person I knew to have his ear lobbed of with a machete after he shot the assailant in the head and another friend named Bob Sorrentino to be shot to death, while reloading his revolver behind a parked vehicle by a perp who came from behind and shot him with an auto. The .38 special revolver in general should've been retired at that time and not 15 or so years later. Today the PD uses 9mm Speers gold dot, which isn't bad, but other depts are going to the .40S&W. Now that's smart.

I'd like to add that the Colt New Service 45LC was a fine weapon for the State Police, but they had a height requirement and were very capable of using such a fine weapon. They're too large for a policewoman's hand. That would've been my choice for a revolver if I had any say, but they were discontinued during the war. I have one that I carry in the woods while hunting and feel very confident in it's capabilities.
 
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Early NYPD police officers were mostly unarmed. As the population grew, and and with gang activity on the rise some officers armed themselves with personal handguns. These were pocket revolvers... usually small 32's and some 38's. I believe it was Teddy Roosvelt when he was police comissioner mandated that officers be armed, and trained with revolvers. IIRC the .38 special was adapted in the 1940's or 50's. As late as the 1960's the department was still purchasing, and selling to policewomen .32 revolvers. in about 1970 policewomen were desiganted to be police officers and were put on patrol. The had to purchase POF (Police officer Female) revolvers for patrol. J frame 5 shot model 36 with a squair butt, and a 3" heavy bbl in .38 spl. No more .32's. Male officers of course carried 4" S&W, Colt, Or Ruger revolvers...in .38 Spl.
 
At one time many gunwriters who mostly had never been policemen were calling for more powerful police handguns. One believed a 200 grain bullet at about 1400 fps was about perfect. One result of all that was the introduction of the .41 magnum, which was about perfect but not for police work. I think maybe too many people confuse police work with gunfighting. True, they sometimes do get in gunfights and sometimes shoot people who are unarmed and moreover, they usually win but it isn't a good thing to see the police as the government's professional hired guns.

You also might get some argument from New York politicians about whether or not they are wimps.

However, to answer the original question, another possible reason might be that few or at least, not enough, people believed it was all that much better. These days if someone suggested using a full metal jacket load in their automatic or a round nose lead in their revolver, they'd be laughed at. That in spite of the "awesome" reputation of both the .45 (not short) Colt or the .45 ACP based almost entirely on the use of those kinds of bullets.
 
Being that when the .38 special finally took a foot hold in law enforcement the 45LC was considered by some to be out dated for then current use.

Once the .38 special took off and became the norm in law enforcement it became an unofficial standard for the most part over most of the country. Later when the .357 mag took off in LE, at some level they were still loaded with either standard or +P .38 special loads. Revolvers have been issued and carried in law enforcement for years. The last NC state agency (NC DOC)stopped issueing them around 2007 if my memory is correct. Again going from memory, if I remember correct NC DOC finally quit the revolvers because of lack of quaility in the last batch of revolvers they purchased. Not because the round was deemed ineffective. Once NC DOC made the switch, the last holdout smaller municipal departments that issued revolvers in .38 special and .357 mag fianlly switched as well. Other then personally owned firearms, I know of no issued revolvers around this part, or at least the rare revolvers I see are personally owned.

This switch away from the .38 special and .357 mag has increased the use of 9x19, .40S&W, .45ACP, .45GAP and .357SIG.

Many of the older firearm insturctors and department heads prefered the revolver because it was simple, and generally "fool"-proof for those with out much common sense when it comes to mechanical equipment. In fact in some ways I do agree with this.

With the 5 different current calibers that are common now, and some of the current pistols it is too easy (my opinion) for a person to grab the wrong loaded mag from a tablemate at the range, and try to put 9x19 into a .40S&W or vice-versa with a pistol style that uses the same basic frame. At least with a revolver when you swing out the cylinder you can see if your ammo is too small or big for the hole, or just right to fit.
 
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Because no one wanted to carry a heavy, large framed revolver all day. The .38 Special is a very adequate police cartridge. It was a step up from the .32s that were popular in the past. The .357 magnum is really too powerful for most officers to handle consistently and effectively.
Only in the past 20 years has law enforcement followed the lead of the military. Police used to be regular old citizens (they still are, but you wouldn't know it by looking.)

In most cases the gun was more a symbol of authority than expected to be used. Same reason the Europeans had 32 caliber guns.

If it was pulled it tended to (and still does though a lot less stop) stop things. Once the guns pulled, most criminals quit.

They were not facing drugged up combatant like the Philippines, or soldiers intent on killing you.

Carrying semi auto also had an image issue here (Europe was different).

So a complex set of factors from technical in a 38 being easy to shoot and the other aspect as well as social.

You can't go by today's standards where more often a gang nut or criminal will keep shooting or start shooting and they have a lot more cause to be prepared for the worse.

And today you see the flip of it. Now they carry 40s an awful lot, when its been proving that the caliber is no more effective than 9mm. glock lured them in with deals, got the ball rolling to 40 and strikers and now there is no technical reason (other than ammo cost) to change. So it goes.

Then a department has a bad shoot and they whip out and jump to another caliber. Emotional decisions are made all the time.
 
Blue Train, NYC politicians shut down the very effective unit [Stake Out Squad] that Jim Cirillo belonged to . Too many blacks were being killed ! Cirillo had shootouts 17 times and won them all ! They would stake out a store that had been hit a few times and wait for another attempt. They would shout 'Freeze ! Police !' and if the BG turned to them with gun in hand he would be shot ! They didn't pick who came in.
Cirillo was an excellent shot ,a very nice guy with great sense of humour. He did IPSC matches as if it were the real thing and was laughed at .The idiots never understood that they would be dead had they 'played the game' in real life ! :rolleyes:
 
At one time many gunwriters who mostly had never been policemen were calling for more powerful police handguns. One believed a 200 grain bullet at about 1400 fps was about perfect. One result of all that was the introduction of the .41 magnum,...

Several gun writers who had been policemen (or border patrol, or sherriffs..) called for a 200gr .41 cal at 900-1000fps as being about perfect for cops. Eventually, what they got was the .41 Magnum. And all the early ammuntion was the 210gr JSP/JHP, loaded to .44 Magnum velocities.

Departments testing the new round found, quite correctly, that it was not suitable for police work. By the time Remington came out with the 210 LSWC, loaded at about 950fps (which would have been ideal), the decision not to use the .41 Mag had already been made.

S&W, only making .41s in their N frame guns (even though there was a fixed sight version for "duty" use) didn't help any, either. OF course, they had to put the .41 in the big frame guns, because of the magnum loads being used, but give the average officer a choice between a K frame and an N frame gun for daily wear, and the smaller, lighter gun will be chosen almost universally.

An interesting (and ironic) twist, jump up 30 some years, and find the .40 S&W, delivering virtually exactly what those old time gunwriters felt was needed. And doing it in an autoloader with more firepower than a revolver!

It was the failure of American industry to produce what was asked for, and instead delivering a magnum, that doomed the .41 as a police arm, more than anything else. If they had come out with the .41 Police, or the .41 Special, with a 200gr-ish bullet at .38SPL+p velocities (950fps or so), AND if it had been put in the smallest lightest gun possible (while maintaining safety margins), I think it would have been adopted and very likely become popular.

Keeping .38 snubs for detectives and undercover work, and using the .41 POLICE for street carry and highway patrol could have been a very effective combination.
 
The big departments have for many decades issued or set standards for issue guns. The .38 Spl was fairly inexpensive and easy to train with. Very many Big City Cops had never held, much less fired a gun, before they joined the force. In small departments, even before WWII, Officers/Deputies carried what they wanted or happened to own. I've seen and handled some guns used by Officers before the war and there were a lot of large bore guns including Single Action Colts. The 1911 was popular among those that could afford it. Of course this was in Texas and I can't say about other places. In rural ares it was common for Peace Officers to have experience with guns.
I believe that I was the first Peace Officer in Galveston County Texas to carry hollow points in a 1911. In about 1978, I bought a box of Super Vels, I carried them when working in crowds like at football games or parades. The rest of the time I carried FMJ. My logic was that in a crowd I didn't want to shoot through a Bad Guys but other times it might be OK. My SGT carried FMJ in his 1911, he told me that if it was good enough for the Army it was good enough for him.
 
Up till the early 70's the NYPD allowed a second gun of any calibre to be carried as backup just as long as you had your authorized 38 special. Many carried the S&W model39, but I chose the BHP. Super vels are what I and most others used and I still have around a dozen of those rounds lying around somewhere. I never wanted to fire them off for some reason. That ammo had a good reputation back then.
 
Here's my opinion on the subject.

In an earlier era of when police officers were respected citizens who wore their sidearms as a badge of office as much as for actually using them, and back when officer "O'hara" the kindly beat cop who everyone knew, respected and liked, who carried his revolver every day yet in most cases never had to draw it for his entire career, and before psycho, Billy bads, power hungry, egotistical, militarized alpha dogs started getting hired in place of the former officer "O'hara's", the .38 special was (and still is) entirely adequate as a sidearm with sufficient knockdown power. At one time in this country, LEO's were respectful citizens who commanded respect not because of the uniform they wore, but because of the kind of person they were that everyone on their beat knew. Another important point is the function of the military is to kill the enemy, wherever they can find the enemy, and kill as effectively as possible. That was not the function (nor should it be) of LEO's past or present. Their purpose was and is to uphold the law and only to kill if absolutely necessary. So the thinking of that time by dept heads may have been that officers did not need a large bore military sidearm that kills easier than the .38 special.

The .38 special usually was much lighter and smaller than the big bore sidearms. Many depts had/have their own armorer who also reloads for the dept, so the costs of brass and projectiles of the .38 being smaller were cheaper also than larger brass and larger heavier projectiles since there was less metal and powder content to purchase and use.

It is amazing to me, but I have found that many people do not realize that the .38 special is more powerful than a 9mm. The projectile of a .38 and a 9mm is interchangeable. You can pull a .38 out of its case or a 9mm out of its case and use them in either case and they will work. The projectiles are pretty much interchangable but the .38 special case has a larger case capacity than the 9mm, thus it can be loaded more powerful even within safe standards for the revolver.

Back in those less complicated, more sane days of our country (compared to today), before LEO's lifted weights, had an "us against them" mentality and dressed and armed like Seal team six, the .38 special was the perfect sidearm for kindly officer "O'hara". It fired a cartridge that was more powerful than the 9mm, yet was still very controllable and relatively light in weight compared to larger bore revolvers. Although the .38 could be no doubt a killer, if not stuck in a critical body part, a person could be incapacitated and still survive to serve their dept to society. Whereas with a big bore their chances weren't as good. If one follows the real function of law enforcement, (unlike the military) it is not to kill if possible, but to enforce the law. The law is better served if a criminal can be incapacitated without killing them. And I say this as a former Leo myself, somewhere along the line that mentality has been lost on our current militarized law enforcement agencies. Perhaps the movies are at fault with de-sensitizing death and glorifying killing. Perhaps it's just that society as a whole has changed, but it is obvious that law enforcement agencies as well as individual leo's today have a different mentality than they had in the earlier part of the 20th century. Today officer "O'hara" doesn't just shoot you once perhaps wounding you on purpose so you can survive. Today he shoots you multiple times (because he was TRAINED TO) whether you were a threat either before or after his first shot or not. Then in spite of the person being mortally wounded and dying, the officer's backup will shoot you multiple times too. That's how it is today in our trigger happy, militarized police society. Here's an example of an innocent person being shot seven times by an officer and his backup officers.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2nUCx6Ln3w

Concerning weight and size. Compare this smaller .38 special Colt to this much larger .45 acp 1917 S&W. Now it might not have been problem back in those days for some officers to carry a .45 acp 1917 S&W all day, day in and day out, and might not EVER have to draw it. But for the AVERAGE officer, the .38 special's lightness, more controllable recoil and smaller size was preferable and completely adequate for the job required. I believe it still is and bemoan the militarization of our police forces as a portent to a future police state. Anyway, compare the sizes below. The Colt feels like a kids small toy cap gun in my hands compared to my 1917 S&W.

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I'm a former Leo. If I had been one back in those days I would have carried the .45 acp 1917 S&W because it fits my big hands better and I'm a big guy and used to it and could more easily carry it on me with comfort than a smaller officer could. I hate it when my pinky falls off the smaller revolvers with smaller grips. But not everyone is like me. Also, back several generations ago, people were less big in stature generally. Statistics show that we as a people generally have gotten larger than our fore fathers. I think it's because we are what we eat. And back in those days they didn't have steroids in the chicken and meat. We ingest those steroid fed foods and over a period of growing years it makes us bigger too. A 6 ft tall man was not the norm back in the old days. Even though I'm 6 ft tall, my father was 5'8" and my grandfather was even smaller. Granddad in his growing years from 1898 to 1918 didn't eat any steroid fed chickens or meat and dad didn't either in his growing years of 1923 to 1943 because steroids weren't as widely used in chicken and beef back in those days. But I did eat them in my growing years of 1953 to 1973.

So for all the above listed reasons, that is the reason for my opinion of why the .38 special was the choice for law enforcement for such a long time. I think it still should be.


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This explains a lot.

Read the enclosed PDF of a letter from an agent entrusted with recommending sidearms to Hoover. FBI recommended the .38 over the .45 in 1933--they also recommended the 38/44 ammunition. Colt listed it as suitable in the D special and Police Positive in the 1950's. Never heard of one blowing as a result. Loaded thusly, with close to .357 ballistics, the .38 didn't give up much if anything to the .45. The thing I never understood was why speedloaders were prohibited for years.
 

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Most are missing the point here. Ballistics isn't why the .38 lasted for so long. It was the political repercussions that was considered the most. Why were dark blue shirts changed to bus driver light blue, though today they're back in style, woopie? Why were bullet loops banned on the uniform gunbelt? Why are handcuffs not allowed to be seen and must be in an enclosed case today? Why no speedloaders authorized for so many years? Why take 15 years or more authorizing an automatic after my friend was killed while reloading and the other guy had plenty of ammo still in his automatic? Ask Howie G. why his .38 bullet spun around the inside of a guys head without touching his brain allowing him to keep coming and chop off his ear with a machete? I don't think he believes the 38 special was sufficient.

True, they're easy to shoot and in small hands are just dandy. Maybe they're all you need in Mayberry and I don't mean that in a bad way, cause when it hits the fan it doesn't matter where a cop works, but in NYC when the BLA and Panthers were running around shooting cops with their favorite weapon the 13+1 BHP the 6 shot 38 just didn't cut it. Also, the FBI are the FBI. They can't be compared to street cops and will never use their weapons as much. I think even J. Edger was slightly influenced by politics as well and possibly all their testing may have been slightly tainted when choosing a cartridge they considered sufficient. I guess you just had to be there at the time to understand fully what was happening. The one thing the city always understood well were lawsuits. NYC was the perfect storm where the .38 special is concerned.
 
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AFAIK the Rangers never officially adopted the M1911... or anything else actually, until very recently. It's my understanding that the Rangers' use of the M1911 has been based far more on tradition than any sort of official policy. FWIW for most of their history, the Rangers operated on a very ad hoc basis. Formal organizational structure, bureaucracy, and written policies were often minimal or absent, to a degree that can be either stunning or refreshing to modern observers, depending on their perspective
That pretty much what the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame & Museum says:

Rangers are permitted to carry any sidearms they chose as long as they can qualify on a regular basis. Most favor the department issue .357 cal. Sig Sauer, or .45 cal. Colt Automatics.
http://www.texasranger.org/today/Equipment.htm
 
before LEO's ........., had an "us against them" mentality

Big City Chiefs seem to discourage good relations between Patrol and the Public. I've seen Officers written up for going into a local business. 'Stay in your car and be ready for a call'.
Of course there's the problem that so many Cops get killed by 'them'. Very many Cops don't live where they work, don't know the people in their beat and aren't encouraged to meet them. The idea that a Cop in a car can patrol much bigger areas also isolates Cops. If you want a friendly neighborhood Cop expect to pay for him too.
Off subject maybe but with 35 years in Law Enforcement, now retired, I pretty much have my opinions about the subject.
 
"Colloidal silver is cheap, easy to produce and it still works."

Look at all the soldiers it saved from death due to infection during the Civil War. :rolleyes:

If it had worked for deep wounds, like being gut shot, the switch to penicillin wouldn't have happened in a matter of a few years after WWII. There are downsides to the use of silver and silver compounds as well. For instance, external dressings containing silver have been found to slow healing in some studies.

I know, I know, it's conspiracy. ;)

The key date for penicillin is 1948 when the patent was granted for a mass production process. The government had some during WWII, but it was expensive. The price dropped from nearly unavailable in 1940, to $20 per dose in July 1943, to $0.55 per dose by 1946.

John
 
Ask Howie G. why his .38 bullet spun around the inside of a guys head without touching his brain allowing him to keep coming and chop off his ear with a machete? I don't think he believes the 38 special was sufficient.

And Trooper Mark Hunter Coates who shot a man 5 times in the chest(357) and didn't die but Mark died from a single shot from a 22lr.

and all the other stories such as the shoot out of 86.


Caliber isn't the case in all these cases. It's shot placement, and mental thinking of the bad people(s)


There is plenty of cases where 1 shot from a caliber killed someone.
There are plenty of cases where it took many shots to kill someone.


Shot placement and mental thinking of the bad people, IMO is how its handled.


I think the 38 was a good choice, could be used in large 357 revolvers and bug j frames on the ankle/pocket.

45 LC cost more and have you ever seen a swing open cylinder 45lc? (Judge/Governor doesn't count)
 
Could it be that 45 revolvers were just too big? My hands are too small to properly handle a 1900s double action Colt 45 sized revolver with one hand. Around 1900 the one handed grip was the normal hold.

However I can easily hold and shoot a 32 or 38 Special one handed.
 
Most people are killed with a 22. Who doesn't know that? I had a DOA that was shot in both eyes and mouth with a 22 by Sammy The Bull. We were with the guy 2 minutes prior to his demise. At the time no one knew he did it, cause approximately 50 people saw nothing.

I'm not talking calibre. I'm talking auto verses revolver here. On the street we wanted firepower. It's more than embarrassing to run out of ammo in your .38 special revolver, which feels real comfortable in the hand when the perp is still loaded for bear. A .40 in the head should work 999 times out of a thousand. There's always the exception to the rule, but the exception shouldn't be dwelled upon and should be left to the Guiness World Book Of Records to consider.

Small hands, big hands, women's hands, who cares? There are plenty of automatics to choose from, even more than revolvers. I saw 38's bounce off rear windshields of vehicles where the puny semi jacketed hollowpoint 9's went through. Is it asking too much for a bullet to penetrate the forehead of an animal and strike the brain at less than 10 feet? I don't think so!
 
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