Why did Police use the 38 Special instead of 45 Long Colt?
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Ron Bernert
New member
I read on the internet that...
The reason was because the new police were not as "cool" as the older generation, and therefore were not quite as deserving of the .45 Colt SA "big boy" round.... I swear- it's on the internet- so it's TRUE!!
The reason was because the new police were not as "cool" as the older generation, and therefore were not quite as deserving of the .45 Colt SA "big boy" round.... I swear- it's on the internet- so it's TRUE!!
aarondhgraham
New member
I read somewhere,,,
That Teddy Roosevelt (when he was Chief of the NYPD or somewhere) had his officers carrying .32 revolvers because of public perception.
He didn't want the public thinking the cops were a bunch of thugs whose purpose was to gun them down with huge revolvers.
My great uncle was a small town sheriff in West Virginia back in the 40's and 50's,,,
He told me the same thing, that the town council dictated that they could only carry .38 specials,,,
Because .357 magnum handguns scared the general populace and made the officers seem like big bad guys.
I would make a supposition that the decision of what handgun/cartridge was for a multitude of reasons,,,
And that safety and/or practicality for the officer was way low on the list.
JMHO,,,
That Teddy Roosevelt (when he was Chief of the NYPD or somewhere) had his officers carrying .32 revolvers because of public perception.
He didn't want the public thinking the cops were a bunch of thugs whose purpose was to gun them down with huge revolvers.
My great uncle was a small town sheriff in West Virginia back in the 40's and 50's,,,
He told me the same thing, that the town council dictated that they could only carry .38 specials,,,
Because .357 magnum handguns scared the general populace and made the officers seem like big bad guys.
I would make a supposition that the decision of what handgun/cartridge was for a multitude of reasons,,,
And that safety and/or practicality for the officer was way low on the list.
JMHO,,,
Let's not forget that LEO's operate in a civilian environment. There are a lot of innocent people around. What what happens to the bullet after it leaves the gun. If it misses it's target how far does it travel, does it penetrate wall's? What if it hit's the target? Does it pass through the person? Then where does it go?
Cost? How much does it cost for a hundred officers to shoot a hundred rounds of .38 spcl as apposed to .357 magnum or .45 colt?
Cost? How much does it cost for a hundred officers to shoot a hundred rounds of .38 spcl as apposed to .357 magnum or .45 colt?
jhvaughan2
New member
44 AMP hit it head on.
.32. are for close range work
.38. are for intermediate distances (combat)
.44s are for animals
The thing we loose sight of in America is that .32 WAS the law enforcement caliber until the 20's and 30's. In europe, LE remained with .32 until after WWII. So the move to .38 was UP from .32 not down from .44.
In my opinion the move up to 38, 357 and even 41 is not based on "militarization" but rather on the fact that the police had to start shooting through automobiles (and bigger automobiles.) The later trend to hi-capacity autos is more a cause of the military mindset of modern police forces.
The army has gone back and forth and back between 36s & 44s (45s) since before the metallic cartridge. .36;s being easier to shoot accurately and .44s having greater knock-down.
in 1911 there were still horses to content with. Currently we are back in the .36 mindset. (remember 38's and 9mm are really .36)
.32. are for close range work
.38. are for intermediate distances (combat)
.44s are for animals
The thing we loose sight of in America is that .32 WAS the law enforcement caliber until the 20's and 30's. In europe, LE remained with .32 until after WWII. So the move to .38 was UP from .32 not down from .44.
In my opinion the move up to 38, 357 and even 41 is not based on "militarization" but rather on the fact that the police had to start shooting through automobiles (and bigger automobiles.) The later trend to hi-capacity autos is more a cause of the military mindset of modern police forces.
The army has gone back and forth and back between 36s & 44s (45s) since before the metallic cartridge. .36;s being easier to shoot accurately and .44s having greater knock-down.
in 1911 there were still horses to content with. Currently we are back in the .36 mindset. (remember 38's and 9mm are really .36)
As Bill Jordan said it's the most powerful cartridge the average man can hope to master, and in gunfighting only the hits count. Jim Cirillo would testify to that. IIRC when Charlie Askins was chief firearms instructor for the Border Patrol he chose the Colt New Service in 38 Special, and he was a gun man if there ever was one. The New York State Police used the Colt New Service in 45 Colt until the 1950s, that's one of the few agencies I know that issued something other than a 38 revolver.
Something that seems to have been missed is the presence of a gun in a patrol car on a hip.
The military .45 DA pistol is in itself big enough to be a burden. When you are on foot, as has been said, the smaller pistol, smaller round, are a must, for a cop walking a beat 8-10 hours a day.
In a car, same thing, you just can't drive around with a 4 inch barrel in a round the size of the 45 colt.
As to caliber, seconds and thirds to those who wanted to minimize the threat posed by police weapons to civilians. Cops were never allowed hollow points in most american communities, according to what I've read, until the 70s and later, because they were perceived as being far too dangerous to fire around civilians.
I can remember reading those arguments many times in newspapers, homeowners who want to remain safe from the magic bullets that cops wanted to carry.
There were dozens of reasons, with none of them being any more important than the other, but I think that one of the first and foremost was just size. They needed to carry compact revolvers, not a colt hogleg.
The military .45 DA pistol is in itself big enough to be a burden. When you are on foot, as has been said, the smaller pistol, smaller round, are a must, for a cop walking a beat 8-10 hours a day.
In a car, same thing, you just can't drive around with a 4 inch barrel in a round the size of the 45 colt.
As to caliber, seconds and thirds to those who wanted to minimize the threat posed by police weapons to civilians. Cops were never allowed hollow points in most american communities, according to what I've read, until the 70s and later, because they were perceived as being far too dangerous to fire around civilians.
I can remember reading those arguments many times in newspapers, homeowners who want to remain safe from the magic bullets that cops wanted to carry.
There were dozens of reasons, with none of them being any more important than the other, but I think that one of the first and foremost was just size. They needed to carry compact revolvers, not a colt hogleg.
Police Agencies, especially metro ones are run by people who are also in the political system. Sheriff's are elected in much of the country. So, public attitude and concern have always been hugely important.
After the social unrest of the 60s, officer safety took on a growing role as something of political concern as well. In earlier decades, losing an officer in the line of duty was a tragedy, and something people worked hard to avoid, but it was also recognised as part of the price of having police.
By the 1970s, police were realizing that the working conditions and the threats they faced were changing. For lots of reasons, which are best discussed elsewhere, police agencies began to realize their men were vulnerable, in different ways than previous generations.
Bullet proof vests and (the search for) effective ammunition began to really pick up support. However, there was still the public perception to deal with.
Hollow points were "killers", and people don't want the police to be "killers". When revolvers ruled police arms, before speedloaders, ammo was carried in belt loops on a uniform. Where everybody could see it. Hollow points were a NO-NO! Come speedloaders in carriers and auto pistol mags in pouches, where the public can't see the JHP and it becomes ok. Today add in a several decade long effort to promote police hollowpoints as actually "humane" and "safer" (which is true) and the attitude of HPs being bad is not nearly as much as it used to be. That's HPs for police. For private citizens, official attitudes vary widely, across the nation.
Police carry what their administrators decide is appropriate. Today that is generally something that is much more effective in use (and therefore also more effective for officer safety as well), than what was available 90 to 100 years ago. And they carry them because of both the technical advances, and also the advances in department attitudes about what is appropriate.
After the social unrest of the 60s, officer safety took on a growing role as something of political concern as well. In earlier decades, losing an officer in the line of duty was a tragedy, and something people worked hard to avoid, but it was also recognised as part of the price of having police.
By the 1970s, police were realizing that the working conditions and the threats they faced were changing. For lots of reasons, which are best discussed elsewhere, police agencies began to realize their men were vulnerable, in different ways than previous generations.
Bullet proof vests and (the search for) effective ammunition began to really pick up support. However, there was still the public perception to deal with.
Hollow points were "killers", and people don't want the police to be "killers". When revolvers ruled police arms, before speedloaders, ammo was carried in belt loops on a uniform. Where everybody could see it. Hollow points were a NO-NO! Come speedloaders in carriers and auto pistol mags in pouches, where the public can't see the JHP and it becomes ok. Today add in a several decade long effort to promote police hollowpoints as actually "humane" and "safer" (which is true) and the attitude of HPs being bad is not nearly as much as it used to be. That's HPs for police. For private citizens, official attitudes vary widely, across the nation.
Police carry what their administrators decide is appropriate. Today that is generally something that is much more effective in use (and therefore also more effective for officer safety as well), than what was available 90 to 100 years ago. And they carry them because of both the technical advances, and also the advances in department attitudes about what is appropriate.
silverbullet
Inactive
Silverbullet
Great debates. One thing worthy of note is that "..penicillin was not available and any wound was thought to be lethal" is accurate but not. And it is the thinking of the majority of people today. Colloidal silver was available and the only thing that was known to prevent/cure infections. The first documented use was 4000 BC. It was/is used orally, rectally, atomized and continues to be used in newborns worldwide for the prevention of STDs which have been contracted by the mother. It is the only thing effective against the new killer staph infections. We have been brainwashed by the pharmaceutical establishment folks. Colloidal silver is cheap, easy to produce and it still works. No bacteria or virus will ever become immune to it. Also recent production methods have rendered the process so that you can no longer turn blue.
On to the .38 special. Why argue semantics when you can simply own a bigger gun? I love my .45 long colt revolvers and they dont jam. This weapon, in the hands of someone who knew how to use it have stopped more bad guys than any other round in history.
But I digress. On both ends of the scale, if you are in a primitive situation get a club. If you arent get a .50 BMG and end all debates...lollol...thats what I did anyhow.
Great debates. One thing worthy of note is that "..penicillin was not available and any wound was thought to be lethal" is accurate but not. And it is the thinking of the majority of people today. Colloidal silver was available and the only thing that was known to prevent/cure infections. The first documented use was 4000 BC. It was/is used orally, rectally, atomized and continues to be used in newborns worldwide for the prevention of STDs which have been contracted by the mother. It is the only thing effective against the new killer staph infections. We have been brainwashed by the pharmaceutical establishment folks. Colloidal silver is cheap, easy to produce and it still works. No bacteria or virus will ever become immune to it. Also recent production methods have rendered the process so that you can no longer turn blue.
On to the .38 special. Why argue semantics when you can simply own a bigger gun? I love my .45 long colt revolvers and they dont jam. This weapon, in the hands of someone who knew how to use it have stopped more bad guys than any other round in history.
But I digress. On both ends of the scale, if you are in a primitive situation get a club. If you arent get a .50 BMG and end all debates...lollol...thats what I did anyhow.
Rampant_Colt
New member
The .38 Special 158gr roundnose lead was referred to by ol' timers as the "Widow Maker" due to its ineffectiveness (.38 Long Colt, too). Both are equally ineffective when handicapped with FMJ/RNL bullets. The other negative drawback to using FMJ/RNL bullets is overpenetration. Too many documented accounts out there about old-time police officer involved shootings using their trusty S&W and Colt six-shooters loaded with .38 Special RNL ammunition failing to stop the bad guy, or wounding an innocent bystander. The .38-44 was notoriously overpenetrative when shooting the 158gr RNL bullet. It wasn't until the 158gr lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint +P became available that transformed the .38 Special (.357 Magnum, too) into an effective duty/self-defense weapon without all the negative drawbacks of using RNL ammunition.
During the "Philippine Insurrection", the U.S. military purchased 2,000 9mm caliber Luger autoloaders from Germany to use against the native Moro tribesmen with similar results as the anemic .38 Long Colt revolver cartridge due to being handicapped by ineffective FMJ handgun ammunition.
[sidenote: the town I grew up in allowed police officers to carry S&W Model 25s, and some did!]
Here is a good read on the subject:
http://www.morolandhistory.com/Related Articles/Legend of Colt 45.pdf
During the "Philippine Insurrection", the U.S. military purchased 2,000 9mm caliber Luger autoloaders from Germany to use against the native Moro tribesmen with similar results as the anemic .38 Long Colt revolver cartridge due to being handicapped by ineffective FMJ handgun ammunition.
[sidenote: the town I grew up in allowed police officers to carry S&W Model 25s, and some did!]
Here is a good read on the subject:
http://www.morolandhistory.com/Related Articles/Legend of Colt 45.pdf
I suspect that one reason the police never went wholeheartedly for big cartridges was, aside from the fact that they are harder to shoot, they don't work all that much better, contrary to everyone's opinions. And when I say harder to shoot, I mean even for experienced shooters. Some police agency used the .41 magnum but it didn't last long.
You may also recall that when Theodore Roosevelt chose a .32 Colt for the New York police, it was after it had been tested on animal carcasses, just as the .45 ACP was done later on. Before that, I understand there had been no standard handgun. They did, however, eventually switch to the .38 Special. I don't think they ever used the .38 Long Colt. And by the way, whether or not you believe there was ever a .45 Long Colt, I suspect it was only natural to use the term because of all the other cartridges that had a long and short version, both Colt and S&W.
However, some agencies, mostly state police or highway patrols, did apparently use large frame revolvers, though not necessarily big bore. Interesting to speculate on why that was the case. Texas Rangers on the other hand were exceptional in using .45 autos sometimes and I am certain some carried them cocked and locked even in the 1950s, before both automatics in general and the .45 auto were considered satisfactory for police service. The Illinois State Police, I believe it was, were trendsetters in adopting the Model 39 S&W pistol, used with a crossdraw holster, I think. Wonder what they use now?
You may also recall that when Theodore Roosevelt chose a .32 Colt for the New York police, it was after it had been tested on animal carcasses, just as the .45 ACP was done later on. Before that, I understand there had been no standard handgun. They did, however, eventually switch to the .38 Special. I don't think they ever used the .38 Long Colt. And by the way, whether or not you believe there was ever a .45 Long Colt, I suspect it was only natural to use the term because of all the other cartridges that had a long and short version, both Colt and S&W.
However, some agencies, mostly state police or highway patrols, did apparently use large frame revolvers, though not necessarily big bore. Interesting to speculate on why that was the case. Texas Rangers on the other hand were exceptional in using .45 autos sometimes and I am certain some carried them cocked and locked even in the 1950s, before both automatics in general and the .45 auto were considered satisfactory for police service. The Illinois State Police, I believe it was, were trendsetters in adopting the Model 39 S&W pistol, used with a crossdraw holster, I think. Wonder what they use now?
carguychris
New member
AFAIK the Rangers never officially adopted the M1911... or anything else actually, until very recently. It's my understanding that the Rangers' use of the M1911 has been based far more on tradition than any sort of official policy. FWIW for most of their history, the Rangers operated on a very ad hoc basis. Formal organizational structure, bureaucracy, and written policies were often minimal or absent, to a degree that can be either stunning or refreshing to modern observers, depending on their perspective.
FWIW it's my understanding that modern Rangers are required to have a SIG P229 in .357Sig with them, but not necessarily to carry it, and that most Rangers keep the SIG in the trunk of their car and a M1911 on their hip.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Its my understanding that the Texas Rangers have never been issued handguns; Rangers arm themselves once they are chosen for that role.
gunsmokeTPF
Moderator
Politics, politics, politics. I can only speak where the NYPD is concerned. When TR became the police commissioner of the NY Police Dept, it wasn't called NYC at the time, in the mid 1890's he ordered 400 Colt New Police revolvers in .32NP. I owned one of them many years ago and unfortunately sold it. Those were the first weapons issued for the street. Previously a plethora of weapons were carried. Why he chose such a weak cartridge is beyond me, but the modern type revolver and smokeless powder had just been introduced.
When the .38 was issued I can't say, but it was probably considered a fairly good cartridge at the time. The city as well as many depts across the country always had concerns regarding the accidental shooting of a civilian by a police officer. For that reason they preferred less powerful rounds as well as fewer semi autos used by the police. Plus P ammo was unauthorized and they eventually stopped using round nose and issued 158gr semi wads. Fewer rounds in the weapon, then fewer shots will be fired. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out. The reason for the removal of the hammer spur has been discussed on this forum many times. The reason was to prevent someone from cocking the weapon and with adrenaline pumping accidentally discharging it. The NYPD even refused to allow it's members from using speedloaders 'till late in the '80's and officer be damned. End of story.
When the .38 was issued I can't say, but it was probably considered a fairly good cartridge at the time. The city as well as many depts across the country always had concerns regarding the accidental shooting of a civilian by a police officer. For that reason they preferred less powerful rounds as well as fewer semi autos used by the police. Plus P ammo was unauthorized and they eventually stopped using round nose and issued 158gr semi wads. Fewer rounds in the weapon, then fewer shots will be fired. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out. The reason for the removal of the hammer spur has been discussed on this forum many times. The reason was to prevent someone from cocking the weapon and with adrenaline pumping accidentally discharging it. The NYPD even refused to allow it's members from using speedloaders 'till late in the '80's and officer be damned. End of story.
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aarondhgraham
New member
I have no evidence to back this up,,,
But I would bet it was largely due to Smith & Wesson marketing the M&P revolver and the new(ish) cartridge for it.
I doubt very seriously whether any great care about stopping power went into the decision,,,
The cynical side of me will say that money (cost) was the major factor in deciding what gun and cartridge was carried.
Teddy Roosevelt standardized the NYPD with a .32 colt revolver,,,
One article I read said it was because he didn't want his cops carrying huge guns,,,
Apparently he wanted his cops to have a "kinder and gentler" image created by a smaller gun/cartridge.
But as in all things like this,,,
There probably isn't one all encompassing reason.
Just rambling,,,
Aarond
.
But I would bet it was largely due to Smith & Wesson marketing the M&P revolver and the new(ish) cartridge for it.
I doubt very seriously whether any great care about stopping power went into the decision,,,
The cynical side of me will say that money (cost) was the major factor in deciding what gun and cartridge was carried.
Teddy Roosevelt standardized the NYPD with a .32 colt revolver,,,
One article I read said it was because he didn't want his cops carrying huge guns,,,
Apparently he wanted his cops to have a "kinder and gentler" image created by a smaller gun/cartridge.
But as in all things like this,,,
There probably isn't one all encompassing reason.
Just rambling,,,
Aarond
.
carguychris
New member
Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at, I just forgot to write that.
In the old days, Rangers armed themselves with whatever weapons they thought were suited to the job. .45-caliber revolvers- and later automatics- were chosen simply because of personal preference. Over time, it became tradition.
Modern-day Rangers are technically DPS officers and are therefore issued SIGs just like the more ordinary DPS troopers, but most Rangers seem to prefer carrying the traditional .45's.
gunsmokeTPF
Moderator
I have to disagree with one thing. Money had nothing to do with it, cause cops always paid for their uniforms and equipment, as well as their own guns, which included their duty and off duty weapon. Though paying the police price of $39 for the S&W mod10 was reasonable at the time. Today their duty weapon( Sig, or Glock 9's) is supplied and becomes the officer's property after 3 years. Those who have been using the 38 have been allowed their continued use to this day. How so very nice of the city to do that for them?
Just had a second thought where money is concerned. The higher ups do worry about lawsuits and a fatal shooting or bystander being struck would cause them much cocern.
Just had a second thought where money is concerned. The higher ups do worry about lawsuits and a fatal shooting or bystander being struck would cause them much cocern.
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