why conceal in an open carry state?

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Skadoosh: Not sure if you're are interested in the challenge I linked to or not, but if so, I don't the links you provided match the criteria. They were both robberies and not gun grabs.

OC may have made them a target for robbery, because guns are valuable, but so does a nice watch. Nice homes are targeted for the same reason, they have things of value inside.

A CC gun prevents no crime. Drawing or showing a firearm has stopped many crimes without a shot fired. I tend to view OC as letting someone know I'm a hard target, if they even notice I'm armed. It's the gun and the presenting of it that sends a message of deterrence. An openly carried gun sends that message in the open, where CC requires you to draw and present the deterrent. If you have to perform several actions to deter VS a visible deterrent, which is more effective the majority of the time?

I'm not saying that everyone should OC, just saying that by my logic it's a better option in the majority of circumstances. I OC and CC, my personal experiences have made me realize that CC is just more work for less return.

I'd rather have my gun ready and easily available to me in a greater range of circumstances, so OC is better for me. I have a young son and often have to carry him in one arm, making some CC draws very difficult. I carry strong side for both CC and OC, but I can tell you from training, OC draw one handed is much easier. I will be damned if I'm going to take any advantage away from myself in a defensive situation that likely will have me at a disadvantage already.

I carry for defense, if I'm drawing my pistol I probably have nowhere else to go and my life or my family's is in danger. I need to be on that gun in the most efficient way possible and I need to run it hard, fast and accurately in a bad situation. If I have to push my coat out of the way, pull up my shirt or whatever else to draw, it's one more complication to an already stressful and deadly situation.

I won't let peoples fear of a weapon or their view of me carrying it legally compromise my safety or my family's. Let them gawk and think: "Oh my god, that guy has the audacity to carry a gun here!" I'm protecting me and my family, not the haters feelings.
 
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a civilian to carry openly in the populated public. There just isnt.

Open carry is a deterrent - your not a cop, your not there to deter, by carrying open you paint the same target on your back that a cop has... only your back isnt protected by a vest, nor partner.

I'll get to the point of it all - If I were a badguy and intent on committing a crime against or around an OC'r, you can be certain that the OC'r will be my very first target and they will not see it coming.
 
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Florida is trying to pass an open carry law. This is probably contradictory, but I support the law and I do not believe open carry is a good option for most civilian situations. I support it because in limited circumstances, such as stopping by a convenience store while on the way to or from the woods or the lake, I would be nice not to have to remove a gun. I guess it would also be nice to know I have the option but that is the libertarian in me.

I agree that it is a deterrence but it also makes you the likely first target. That being said I could see the deterrence factor being useful after a hurricane or other disaster.
 
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for a civilian to carry openly in the populated public. There just isnt.
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That is a conclusion. I'm not going to say that it is illogical, but I have seen no evidence to support it.

I live in a state where OC is not currently authorized, and I strongly believe that should be changed. I'm not saying I would OC, as I would not do so regularly, but I would support the rights of others who would.

And there is something to be said for the statement "Those who do not exercise their rights soon lose them". I firmly believe that average citizens seeing fellow law-abiding citizens carrying, every day, with no ensuing mayhem, would be a positive influence in the day-to-day lives of Mr. and Mrs. Average Citizen. Might take a while, might take a few MWAG calls, but I believe it would be a net positive.

Please note that this is a conclusion as well, and I might be wrong...but I don't think so. :)
 
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This has been a really good thread and I appreciate the opinions and the links.

This is just my opinion, but if I were a police officer I would rather my state had OC than CC. The statistics show that most people who carry are law abiding citizens. Of course bad guys are not going to obey laws and I think it improbable that they would carry openly although they've done dumber things in the past. But if I were police officer I'd rather know who was armed than not know (excluding the bad guys). Maybe there's a hole in that logic - if there is I'm sure someone will point it out.

Just from my own perspective I'd rather a state has both. I think the best thing I've heard so far is that there is a time for OC and a time for CC.

When we were having breakfast outside of Ft Huachuca in AZ and two guys walked in wearing pistols on their hips no one gawked. I mean I noticed it mainly because their right hips were facign toward me as they walked by, but there was no fuss from anyone in the restaurant. There were probably other people in their carrying but I didn't notice them.

One of the things that the Open Carry movement talks about is perceptions are different in different parts of the country and if people in a particular area have negative perceptions about guns they react negatively. At least in that neck of the woods in AZ, it was no big deal.
 
The police have no duty to protect or deter crime, they investigate and attempt to prevent crime through deterrence. The supreme court of the united states or SCOTUS has ruled as such.

I am a part of a community and therefore responsible, in part, for it's condition and safety. I am responsible for the security of myself and my property. Part of that security is deterrence, also known as a gun.

Likewise, if I were a criminal and wished to target an armed person or persons I would use surprise as well. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of criminals want a soft target and the presence of a gun has been stated as a reason to avoid that target. Think of it this way: If 50% of criminals who wanted to rob me wouldn't do so because I had a gun, that's 50% fewer criminals who will attempt it. If my OC firearm prevents half the robbery attempts on me, then it works better than a CC gun which the full 100% of criminals didn't know was present. A CC gun prevents no crime or attempted crimes until it is drawn or shown. An OC gun presents itself immediately and says this wallet isn't worth the potential loss of your criminal life. The other 50% of criminals didn't care about the gun, so it doesn't matter in those instances.

If a criminal is planning to the point of specifically eliminating me because he views me as a threat, then he's going to have done some research on me and I must have something he really wants. At that point there isn't anything I could do to prevent it from happening.

We can play what if games all day, but the fact is OC can function as a deterrent while CC does not. I'll take the deterrent that is obvious, because it does encourage the criminal to pick another target. Kind of like a big intimidating dog helps deter home burglary, because nobody wants to get bit or have the dog wake up an armed home owner who then presents a lethal threat.
 
Florida is trying to pass an open carry law. This is probably contradictory, but I support the law and I do not believe open carry is a good option for most civilian situations.
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I concur. Right now, Florida law requires absolute concealment. If the wind blows back my shirt and my weapon is exposed, I could be in for trouble. The open carry law allows one to be a little less paranoid about that.

In Georgia, I have the luxury of being pretty sloppy about concealment. The average person is unlikely to notice my weapon, but someone who's been around guns might. Here, it's not a problem.

Now, do I want to advertise that I'm armed? No. Nobody needs to know I'm armed. It's a weapon. It's there for one purpose, and that's a pretty grim one. It shouldn't be in play unless I'm trying to stop something truly dreadful from happening.

For me, the whole idea of carrying a weapon revolves around reducing risk. In reality, what are the odds that I'll actually need it? Pretty darn small. Still, I carry it, just in case.

If we take the idea of risk abatement to its conclusion, it makes no sense for me to add an element of risk back into the equation. To me, carrying an exposed weapon does just that. Your mileage may vary.

What I can tell you is that most of the die-hard open carry types I've met carry in substandard rigs, have little or no training in weapons retention, and really don't seem to take the idea of the gun as a weapon very seriously. Treat it as anything but a weapon, and we're asking for trouble.

Before someone comes along to claim that I don't support their rights (and they will), I would never support a law restricting or banning the practice. I just wish those who do it would do so a bit more responsibly.
 
Why conceal in a open carry state?

Because I am polite. I believe in discretion. I have no reason to open carry. I do not wish to cause others discomfort "just because I can".

The accepted norm varies between regions. In some areas, open carry is simply a way of life while in others, it is so infrequently seen that when witnessed, it may cause panic. I dislike panic.
 
I think this story is interesting in a couple of ways:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

First of all I think this guy lived in a high crime area.

I think carrying a gun openly in that situation is similar to wearing a rolex or waving a gold Krugerrand around.

It seems like residents in the area perceived that he was issuing some sort of challenge to others by carrying openly like "Don't mess with me" (According to "Shambria").

And I also think that these guys probably set an ambush for this gun owner. And it may have been to show him up, a feather in their cap, or maybe it was just the for the money or both.

But I do think that this is a good example of a time when it's not wise to carry openly. In this particular situation if you're going to carry openly you'd better have eyes in the back of your head.

Definately food for thought.
 
We can play what if games all day, but the fact is OC can function as a deterrent while CC does not
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LOL...as a concealed carrier, I see some civvie OCing in an urban area, my hinkymeter goes up and I split (or get mentally ready to shoot him). Thats deterrence I reckon.

Rambo is already hovering around some of the responses here. You want to protect your community, get involved, not just parade around with your gun dangling


WildiwishtherewasawomenshootersboardandtheywouldletmejoindespitetheinherentflawsofmygenderAlaska ™©2002-2011
 
Please note the link that C0untZer0 posted occurred in Wisconsin, where open carry is legal but concealed carry is not (or did that just change?)

Kind of changes the paradigm a bit.
 
Open carry; robberies, state-federal decalared emergencies....

I read a few new posts and wanted to post a response.

Thefts, armed robbery or other incidents can occur too with open carry.

About 4 years ago, there was a media report of a armed, uniformed security officer working in a "bad area" of my city.
The apt complex guard was attacked by 2 armed subjects who took the officer's sidearm, badge, impact weapon, chemical agent etc.
The whole event started with men asking the security guard for directions. :(

I also agree that states or elected officals should pass pro-gun/2A laws to allow full open carry by CWP or concealed weapon license holders in times of state or federal declared emergencies. Something like Katrina(2005) or Andrew(1992).
 
Irish said:
..that's 50% fewer criminals who will attempt it...
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Your percentages are all skewed and represent a unrealistic, virtually nonexistent, number of people (2) who would attack any one of us.
Using 50% would require at least two, but you could live 50 lifetimes and have zero.
Your giving up the element of surprise that would be a big advantage in dealing with a intelligent or fearless criminal so that you can deter the opportunistic variety who may run away if you reach/present after being confronted - which is the same result as oc, thus making the argument of oc being a deterrent a moot point.

If your ever attacked you will get who you get.
Perhaps you will get your two and they'll distract, disarm, and shoot you with your own gun... when they might have just walked on past you instead.

It takes only one with motivation and clarity of thought and your done.
I say its great to have the right, but be smart and play your cards close.
 
I didn't even bother to read more than a few posts in this thread, because my answer would be the same. I don't personally agree with any of the "center of attention" or "being polite to others" or the "you don't want to advertise your armed" stuff. It's fine if you think that way, to each his own, but I open carry all the time even though I have a CWP. I could absolutely care less what others think, and smile to myself when I get the odd looks, points and stares. I believe if more gun owners open carried and were not afraid to practice their God given right, it would take allot of the wind out of the anti-gun lobby's sails. Granted it might cause some type of uproar in the beginning, but over time I think it would help our fight immensely. If just 20% of gun owners started to open carry, I bet within 6 months things would start to change, people would see that guns don't jump out of their holsters and kill people, and that gun owners aren't looking for any trouble, and that trouble won't go looking for them. Heck we might even make believers out of some of the brady bunch crowd. My point is, is that carrying in the open (or concealed for that matter) is a god given right, and I'm sick and tired of these brady bunchers dictating whether or not I can practice that right. Ok, rant over.

That all being said, I was shopping in a Home Depot a few years back and an employee saw me pushing a cart full of lumber, I got ready to ask him where something was and he saw my gun on my hip. The kid freaked out and started screaming "OMG, he has a gun!" The cops got called, I just went on about my business like nothing happened. The cops got there and I put my hands on my head and dropped to my knees without being told to do so, after they took my weapon from me the sat me down and ask what I was doing, I told them I was building a work bench and trying to shop for materials when Suzy started screaming. After about 10 min of me explaining myself they gave me back my gun, told the kid I had every right to carry it, and left. The manager was standing right there by now, and I told him that little Suzy's out burst just cost him a $500 sale, and left with out buying anything.

On the other side of the fence, A friend of mine was shopping at walmart one day and was reaching to the top shelf to get something. His jacket and shirt rose up above his waist and his gun was exposed. Someone saw it and freaked out. Started screaming, cops got called, he was questioned, given his gun back, and went about his business.

The moral of the story is stuff like this happens all the time, it doesn't matter if you carry in the open, or concealed, until people are used to Americans exercising their God given rights it will continue to happen.
 
Weapon retention-skill training; Street Survival book...

Years ago, as a lower enlisted MP, I got a LE only book about officer safety & "street survival". In the text book was a b/w photo taken from a state corrections dept of 2 inmates practicing weapon/sidearm snatches.
I'm not sure if that photo or related material are available to the general public or with an open source but that is something to consider when you carry a loaded firearm either open or concealed.

CF
 
WhiskeyTango said:
I believe ... it would take allot of the wind out of the anti-gun lobby's sails.
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Romanticized nonsense... that would fuel their fight because few of us, even most ccw'rs, want to see people walking around with guns dangling.
It's just not polite to the eye, especially to a anti's eye, and if you stuff it in their face they will react poorly, like always.
Your not going to teach them anything by OC'ing.

What other environments have we seen lately that depicted the general population openly carrying firearms?
The likely answer is a third-world hole that none of us want to live in.

WhiskeyTango said:
I could absolutely care less what others think, and smile to myself when I get the odd looks, points and stares
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That attitude is much more of a liablity than it is anything else.
 
Depressing reading

I'm gettin' kinda depressed reading this thread. It's because I'm seeing so many rationalizations for open carry, along with so few who realize that concealed carry is a deterrent even when no one chooses to exercise it, because the criminals have no way to tell who is armed and who is not.

Someone claimed that open carry deters crime the same way a big, mean dog deters burglary. 'Sorry, but it's not that simple. The dog deters amateurs. A determined professional will arrive at your house with a plan (and the means) to quickly neutralize your dog.

Similarly, OC deters only amateurs. A serious criminal who wants your gun already has a tactical advantage because you have voluntarily relinquished the elements of uncertainty and surprise.

Maybe the problem is that the OC advocates, bless their hearts, are idealists. They want us to be like the Old West, which was actually quite peaceful and orderly (and not at all like in the movies!) precisely because everyone was armed and competent with firearms. It was proof that "An armed society is a polite society" (Ideally, I wish we'd all carry rifles all the time, and be the "Nation of Riflemen" we were once known as).

But in today's world, with criminals more hardened and more organized than ever and the majority of citizens not "comfortable" with guns, that idealism runs into the reality that OC is really not a very prudent way of going armed. It's just better to keep the bad guys guessing.

Once again, all the talk about faster draws and the supposed deterrent value of a visible gun are just rationalizations for guys who like to show off, for one reason or another, that they're packing heat.
 
I read this thread and I was going to stay out of it until I read Ringolevio's post. He basically summed up how I feel about this issue.

Crime is so bad now that the last thing you want to do is draw attention to your car, your money, your gun or any other valuable property. When we are out and about, my wife turns her wedding ring around so the stone is into her palm. I remove my wallet from my back pocket and carry it out of sight in a front pants pocket or in a jacket pocket with a zipper.

The absolute last thing I would want to do is advertise to muggers that I'm carrying a gun and where on my person I am carrying it. Today's criminals are irrational, likely doped up and they usually work in teams of two or three.

The muggers and carjackers are not as afraid of your gun as some may think. They might see this as a challenge to bum rush the armed citizen and take his gun. The less they know about me and what I have on me, the better. Two of our best weapons are our brain and the element of surprise. The gun comes in third.
 
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