What Went Wrong?

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This and similar threads remind me of an adage about driving. Most highway drivers share the opinion: "Anyone driving faster than me is a maniac, and anyone going slower is a road hog."

With some shotgun owners, if someone buys a more expensive gun it's an unnecessary extravagance and they're a snob -- and, if it's less expensive it's a POS and they're a cheapskate. We're all going down different highways in life, and what works best for me may not for you -- get over it.
 
I agree with Dave - if we're going to continue this debate - lets keep it civil !

Everything I've said about this topic is only my opinion Roy ....its not a scientific blind study ... - and I hope it came accross as my opinion / not a study. Where can you go and read about issues on these guns - other forums like Shotgun World, and on this forum too - where someone says they have a problem, etc ...but like any site / or column or whatever ...you have to understand the perspective of the writer.

I have talked to one of the more senior sales guys at my Cabela's store about a year ago - and I have no way to prove it - but he told me they were getting most all of the TriStar O/U's they sold back for warranty issues. But I believe they have a 5 yr warranty on them as well ...so hopefully they fixed those guns and the issues aren't just repeating themselves. They also sell Browning, Beretta, etc of course. I believe they try and give the customer what they want - and I doubt their sales guys would tell anyone their TriStar models are as good a gun as any of their Beretta or Brownings - but I hear a lot of bad info at gun counters --- most any time I'm standing around.

I have a friend in the retail gun business - and he buys and sells hundreds of used guns every week (and a wide range of shotguns / tactical to high end target guns ) / and he's told me he will not buy or take in trade any more Baikals or TriStar's ...because he can't get parts and his gunsmith was having too many problems with them .....and he also tells me he's got too many used Mossberg and Remington low end O/U's and can't sell them ...and he tells me he will take any Browning or Beretta O/U he can get - no matter how beat up it might be - because at the right price - he can always sell them. Another gun he likes to see come in is a Ruger O/U - especially the older ones - because they're less expensive and he says they're good sellers.

He's also a dealer that special orders, inventories and sells a lot of new guns - but on the new side, he tends to stay with Browning and Beretta on his O/U's - and more Brownings than Berettas.

I don't own any of the guns I'm saying negative things about / and I won't be buying any of them to test / but I also won't change my mind either. How many of these guns have I seen --- I don't know / but I'd say probably 200 or more in the last few years. Again, its not scientific - but I think I've seen about 30% of them were ok / 70% had issues...

I wish some of these guns were better / because I think there is a need for "casual" shooters to be able to buy a gun at a fair price that will give them a 25,000 shell life without a lot of mechanical issues. Not everyone can afford $ 1,500 - $ 3,000 for a shotgun and I get that ...

But when someone on this forum / or other sites I visit - asks about a good solid long term O/U ....until I see proof otherwise --- I will continue to tell them, in my opinion, Browning and Beretta give you a lot of gun for your money. If I had to pick one less expensive gun ...for them to take a chance on - it would probably be the Ruger - but I have not been that impressed with the fit and finish on the Rugers I've seen lately.

I go to the gunshows in my area most every month ...and I love talking to guys about what they're selling .....( and I hear all kinds of stuff that borders on mis-info ...in my opinion )...

Am I biased - sure --- in terms of shotguns, I shoot primarily Browning O/U's - and I have about 15 of them or so / the only pump guns I have are Browning BPS models / I only have a couple of semi-autos and I prefer Benelli (on handguns I have several Sig's - but mostly I collect and shoot high end 1911's and older S&W revolvers ) because its what fits me / my hands, etc ...and what I like ! You won't see me comment hardly at all on tactical shotguns ...because I have no interest in them and my experience is 35 yrs old ... so that's my perspective and Bias ....

I do not own any Beretta O/U shotguns / I won one, at a sporting clays tournament...and traded it in (new in box) - for a new Browning O/U. I think Beretta makes a good solid gun / but they don't fit me. I am considering one of the new Beretta semi-auto UGB Trap models ...for the heck of it ...

Stay well / and good luck at the show this weekend - hope you find a good deal on something you want ....
 
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ha!

This and similar threads remind me of an adage about driving. Most highway drivers share the opinion: "Anyone driving faster than me is a maniac, and anyone going slower is a road hog."

With some shotgun owners, if someone buys a more expensive gun it's an unnecessary extravagance and they're a snob -- and, if it's less expensive it's a POS and they're a cheapskate. We're all going down different highways in life, and what works best for me may not for you -- get over it.
zippy13 is online now Report Post

Now that made me smile.

Pete
 
When Ifirst started working on cars for a living, I went and got me some sears craftsman tools. Guess what? They could not handle the day to day stress working on cars for a job puts on them. For the casual home mechanic they work fine, but use them hundreds of times a day and they break. Dont get that with snap on or mac tools, so as a mechanic I learned to spend the extra cash. I still have them tools, some are 30 years old and work as the day they were made.

Bout the only way I can try to explain this.

I do like my remingtons, Iwore a 1100 out shooting trap. Took a few years but it is so loose now it wont cycle at times. I can go buy a rebuild kit for it cost about 175.00 I belive and I will someday. Not sure I can get that for the double I got for my son.
 
Personally, I rate Benelli's semi-auto's very high. I don't have any experience with their pump guns / but I don't see or hear many bad things about them. I see a lot of the semi-autos on the sporting clays courses around here.

I've had two Benelli's for about 5 yrs now / both Benelli Super Sport models, one in 12ga and one in 20ga - both very good guns. I bought a 3rd one - used - in 12ga - and passed it on to one of my buddies. Since then - I've had 6 shooting buddies - all buy Benelli Super Sport models in 12ga - some of them are using them as their primary sporting gun / and put their O/U's away.

With the synthetic stocks / and the comfort tech system in them - I think they're soft shooting. They cycle very quickly. They shoot very cleanly because they're inertia vs gas operated. They are easy to fully strip / take trigger group, bolt out, etc - and easily clean in 10 min / put them back into battery.

I don't shoot the Benelli's a lot / but I probably have close to 10,000 shells thru the 12ga / maybe 5,000 thru the 20ga .... I use them as a "travel gun" so I only have to take 1 gun on a trip - shoot some sporting, do some hunting, some skeet or trap. My grandkids think the design is cool on the super sports - and they shoot them a little. I use both of them for training new shooters / young shooters ...and they all seem to like them.

One rap I do hear on the Benelli's - is they won't cycle loads under 1225 or 1250 fps ...but I can tell you both of my guns will cycle even very light loads, like 7/8 oz in 12ga as long as its at least 1200 fps. My 12ga will not cycle any loads, regardless of how much shot in shell ( like 1 1/8 oz ) at 1150 fps. The 20ga I have will not cycle 7/8 oz loads at 1150 fps either reliably. I keep my guns very clean / and well lubed ...so that may be a difference on my guns.

Mine also have the changeable soft comb inserts / for different heights - and changeable recoil pads - for different length of pull - and lefties or righties ...and I have some grandkids that are lefties ...so its a handy gun / that I can change out quickly ....shorten up length of pull, change a comb pad etc ...because my grandkids range from 9 - 19 .... It makes them very versatile ...in my opinion.

I have a son in the Marine Corps - and they speak very highly of their version of the M-4 model ( I don't remember what they call it ) - but it does very well in the jungles and swamps / and in Afghanistan ( its gas operated - so its different ). I have fired M-2's and M-4's - and they seemed fine to me too / but I have no need for a tactical shotgun so I've never bought one.

I see a lot of them duck hunting in Arkansas - in the last few years ( not sure of model numbers )....black eagle, I think ...

I see a few of the wood stock versions at the gun clubs - they have a lot more recoil - Montefeltro, etc ...than the comfort tech stock versions. I shot a round of skeet with the Montefeltro ...and it was ok / but I'll take my Super Sport models over it.

The only negative comment I consistently hear on Benelli is cost. The Euro to the dollar has screwed up the pricing ...with Super Sport models, new, in my area retailing for about $ 1,875 vs the $ 1350 or so I paid for each of them a few yrs ago... But at $ 1,875 - there are a lot of Berettas that are cheaper / different since they're gas guns ...but good guns as well for less money.

None of my buddies that have Super Sports are looking to give them up / I think they're a good long term gun.
 
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If a manufacturer makes 100,000 inexpensive shotguns and has 1% with issues, we WILL hear about it.

If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it.

Sometimes it is a numbers game. I just hope that the guns we buy are in the 99% group!
 
If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it.

Wow, only $3,000, where have you been getting your custom shotguns? Seems I've been paying way too much for mine.
 
re:BigJimP

I rate Benelli's semi-auto's very high.

Agreed, everyone I have ever asked about this brand gives it high marks. It sounds as though it might be the Cadillac of shotguns. I went to a gun store to look at guns, particulary shotguns, today. It is a store that is a competitor of Cabelas.

You know they had tons of Benelli Shotguns. In fact they had Benelli/Franchi shotguns and Benelli/Stoeger shotguns. Apparently they are attaching their names to imported shotguns. Here is my question.

Benelli has a good name. These imported guns are suppose to be POS's. Then why would Benelli put their name on them? Why would they risk their reputation? If the imports are so bad, then it would be like BMW putting their seal of approval on Yugos. They won't because BMW as a certain panache to it.

So, either Benelli is unconcerned about hurting their image or unconcerned about the quality of guns they are putting their name on. I wonder which it is?
 
Benelli and the others are part of the Beretta Group. Beretta allows each unit to operate independently, while sharing some basic functions to save costs.

Remember, at one time, Ford put out the Lincoln and the Pinto - same analogy. Certain guns are built to specific price points.

If a manufacturer of custom made $3000 shotguns makes 100 per year, with 1% having issues...we probably will not hear about it.

You're missing at LEAST 1 zero
 
Come on Roy ....now you're trying to say some of us said any gun imported is junk .... That is not what any of us said ....(and I don't happen to think that Cadillac or BMW make especially high quality automobiles either, but that has nothing to do with our discussion on O/U shotguns )....

Browning O/U's are imported ( the Citori line is made by Miroku in Japan )...
Beretta O/U's are imported ( they're made in Italy ) and so is Benelli ....

I endorsed Benelli .... / not the Franchi or Stoeger subsidiaries of Beretta Firearms... / Benelli doesn't even make an O/U ......and as far as I know has nothing to do with Franchi or Stoeger. If you're implying that Franchi and Stoeger are really Benelli's - stamped with different names - you are not correct. They are different divisions / and Benelli's quality should not be tainted with the issues that certainly Stoeger has had ....

Your point makes no sense ...and you are reaching on your comparions in my opinion.
 
Roy,
Beretta hasn't been making guns for nearly 500-years without learning a thing or two about marketing.

I suspect they saw the Benelli group as a threat to their markets, or adjacent markets, so they "joined" forces. Now, that they control Grouppo Benelli, they have guns (Stoeger and Franchi) below the Beretta gas auto-loaders, and the Benellis fit nicely between the gas guns and the Beretta O/Us. IIRC, Beretta also has interests in other gun makers. I'm hoping they will celebrate their 500th anniversary with some really special offerings in all price ranges.
 
re:BigJimP

Benelli doesn't even make an O/U ......and as far as I know has nothing to do with Franchi or Stoeger.

http://www.benelliusa.com

Look at the above website. You will indeed see that Benelli has added their name, thus their reputation, on Franchi and Stoeger guns. Yes, they don't make them. But it is their name on the line. Either Benelli thinks these imports are fine or they don't give a darn about their customers. Those are the only two logical conclusions.

If I was Mr. Benelli and Mr. Stoeger wanted to add my name in any way to his line of guns I would want to inspect them. I would have experts look at them and try them. If Mr. Stoeger's guns were POS's, my name wouldn't appear anywhere near their name. Even if I didn't make the gun, my name would be my word that his gun is good. And if my name was associated with high quality firearms, those other guns better be at least the equal of mine dollar-wise.

Again, either Benelli is unconcerned with the quality of these imports or they are unconcerned with thier customers. Please come up with a different logical conclusion.
 
I have two Stoeger 20 ga coach guns bought used at a great deal. After test firing each, I cleaned them and then placed the guns in strategic locations in my house. They serve my purpose. From reading about cowboy action shooting I learned that these guns start to break down after 1500-2000 rds. To me it's not an issue because I know their limitations, and I'm also aware that I would have a difficult time finding spare parts or even locating a non voice mail voice to speak with about issues. The second half of the former sentence is also a lmitation.
 
If I was Mr. Benelli and Mr. Stoeger wanted to add my name in any way to his line of guns I would want to inspect them. I would have experts look at them and try them. If Mr. Stoeger's guns were POS's, my name wouldn't appear anywhere near their name. Even if I didn't make the gun, my name would be my word that his gun is good. And if my name was associated with high quality firearms, those other guns better be at least the equal of mine dollar-wise.

Again, either Benelli is unconcerned with the quality of these imports or they are unconcerned with thier customers. Please come up with a different logical conclusion.

Guess you missed my Ford analogy or chose to ignore it because it refutes your attempt at trolling for an argument.

Benelli acquired those brands and became acquired by Beretta Group. BG makes guns at many different price points, including those "POS" as you like to refer to them. With the exception of the upper-level guns, most makers make a variety of products to suit a variety of budgets. Stoegers are bargain basement, move up to Franchi for mid-range, and then to Benelli for their higher end. This isn't rocket science or hard to understand
 
re:oneounceload

Benelli acquired those brands and became acquired by Beretta Group.

So, its Beretta that is going to sully their name.

The cheap imports are putting the Benelli or Beretta or whatever name they chose on their guns to bolster their image. So, what's in it for Benelli and/or Beretta.

In this thread, some have mentioned that certain import guns have a 70 to 80 percent failure rate. I refuse to accept the premise that two of the finer gun companies will put their names on any product, for any price, that will hurt that imagine. Unless, they are just in it for money and are trying to dupe customers. If its just profit motive, then I will lose all respect for them.

Guess you missed my Ford analogy or chose to ignore it because it refutes your attempt at trolling for an argument.

Ford also makes Lincolns, their luxury brand. You notice that Ford doesn't appear anywhere on a Lincoln car. Their is a reason.

Now, if Beretta and/or Benelli put their name on any gun, it does create a certain image and certain expectations. Maybe most of here on TFL know the difference between an importer and a manufacturer. What about a novice that doesn't. They go into a gun shop and buy a Benelli/Stoeger over and under. Either Benelli is a an unshady company or an unconcerned one.

Which is it?
 
Your logic has holes in it big enough to drive a dump truck thru Roy ....lots of big corporations buy up other companies for lots of reasons ...and let them operate independtly like Beretta has... Not all divisions in a corporation make products at the same level of quality. In fact often - in my view - the corporations leave their divisions independent / let them compete / keep the engineering depts separate .... and sometimes they intentionally keep one division at a lower quality level - to keep the prices on that line down - and attract customers at that lower price point.

I seriously doubt Benelli has anything to do with Franchi or Stoeger ....and I know the parts of the similar models are not interchangeable 100%.

If you're implying the gun store you visited today - says all Benelli, Franchi and Stoeger shotguns are of equal quality ...you're being misled in my opinion ( maybe because the retailer has a bigger margin on one brand over the other / or excess inventory / or he or she is just plain guessing ...who knows ) and I've reached the point where I no longer care.

Let's just agree to disagree man ....

Have a good evening .... I'm closing my office and heading to the range ...for a little handgun practice ....
 
re:BigJimP

Your logic has holes in it big enough to drive a dump truck thru

Show me the wholes.

So you are saying a name is worthless. Benelli's name on any gun is a blessing from them. Or they are crooked and are trying to rip people off. Which is it?

I start a shotgun making company. I want to call them the Big Jim P Shotguns. I send you a model and you discover its a POS. Will you let me put your name on it?

I say that imported shotguns are fine. Benelli seems to agree with me.

I seriously doubt Benelli has anything to do with Franchi or Stoeger

Did I make up the website I referenced above? Scroll down to the bottom of the Benelli USA website and there you will see the names Stoeger and Franchi. They at least share a website. And what name appears first and largest, Benelli. I assume they are the authors of it. I assume they know the names of the other companies on the site. I assume they know the quality of those other guns.

Again, is Benelli blessing those other guns or are they trying to dupe customers? Please, someone, answer this.
 
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I say that imported shotguns are fine

That was never a point of contention - you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - enjoy your Stoeger or whatever you bought

Maybe you can read up on marketing, price points, branding, etc.....then it might make sense to you
And I'm done with this one as well
 
re:oneounceload

Glad it works for you and shoots where you point - guess you got one made on a Tuesday.......if all you are doing is what you have been doing, good for you, hope it continues..............every maker, even Jennings, turns out one now and again that works

That was never a point of contention - you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - enjoy your Stoeger or whatever you bought

Comparing any gun to Jennings is not high praise. Maybe Benelli will one day add Jennings to their line of firearms.;)

I will also tell you that 2 or 3 out of 10 guns that come out of some of these mfg's seem to be pretty good .

Again, not high praise.

You are right, I don't understand marketing. I do understand what a name means. If I sign my name to a check its my promise its good. If Benelli puts their name on a gun, weather they made or not, its their promise that its good. I don't expect the gun to be of Jenning quality or have three-quarters failure rate.
 
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