What Went Wrong?

[oneounceload]

You don't always get what you pay for id put my saiga or s&w 12 ga against any multi 000$ guns any day and ill blow them out of the water. Ill do the same with my springfield GI .45 against a kimbler, and my m14 agenst any fine bolt action .308 and at the end of the day come out ahead. If you want to go spend a few grand on a gun that's on you more power to you. If you want a gun that isn't scared to be dropped in the dirt and mud often times cheaper is better.........

And perhaps you can tell s how many championships you have won with either........"blow them out of the water"?? Please

Then again, I also don't drop my guns in the mud.

Spoken by someone who has never owned or shot anything else I would suspect........to each their own - if you prefer an AK type shotgun you can drop in the mud, have at it

 

[hogdogs]

cheap tula and bear just dont come up to snuff when it comes to winchester, federal or even hand loaded.

UMMMM.... Winchester and Federal ain't zackly premium ammo...
I oughta know... I can afford both!

Brent

 

[OkieCruffler]

I don't know, if I were doing a raid on a drug cartel I'd probably choose the Saiga over the K20. Same with the M14 vs say a Cooper bolt action. I can't imagine a roll I'd pick the Springfield over the Kimber. It's all about the game you're playing. I once won $200 off my brother in a race between his corvette and my old 4X4 Toyota. He bet he could beat me "Anytime, anyplace." He just gave me the 2 bills instead of taking his vette down to the river.
Although I'm starting to like this little Yildiz, I have no illusions that it's the equal of the K20, or even the B guns for that matter. Heck, it's not even the equal of my 311's. But it'll do for now.
As a side note, I shot with a fella last week who had a new Citori. I've never seen a gun have that many misfires. We thought maybe it was his reloads, but it did the same with mine and some factory loads. Now by no means am I saying the Citori is a POS gun, but it does show that any company can put out a dog.

 

[abelacres]

Why would you want to drop your gun in the mud anyway?

The most expensive shotgun I have was only $500NIB and I would be roy-al-e p***ed if I dropped it, let alone in the mud.

I don't own a $1k shotgun, but I don't shoot competition clays. If I did I would definitly spend the extra money for a gun that could handle that many rounds.

My Savage pump is fine for squirrels, dove and backyard clays. Between myself and my Dad it's probablly had 5000 rounds through it over the last 30 years. (btw that's only about 167 rounds a year)

 

[pvt.Long]

"To each his own and yes I have shot several firearms I prefer. From match lock to the modern day matte mattel. The ones that can take a little dirt when I carry it on the ranch and still be able to preform in a pinch. The tight tolerances of kimbler don't exactly do well with dirt and mud. Yes I have shot one to me a .45 shoots like any other 45.,but that's just me. If I dot do competitions unless it comes to hunting.I got a buddy that got a Citrori and he had the same misfire problem and those things run for what around 2 grand? Winchester and federal my not be premium like Hornady or Black hills but it gets the jobs I need done at not costing me an arm and a leg. I'd take my m1a over anything because when accuracy's on the line it holds its own, especially when a second shot is needed.

 

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

you don't always get what you pay for id put my saiga or s&w 12 ga against any multi 000$ guns any day and ill blow them out of the water.

 

[zippy13]

I don't own a $1k shotgun, but I don't shoot competition clays. If I did I would definitly spend the extra money for a gun that could handle that many rounds.

You, like many others, don't quite understand… If you're a serious competitor, you don't spend big bucks for a comp gun because it lasts longer, you do it because it gets you higher scores. The fact that it may last longer is a bonus. When you add up what it costs to compete: travel, lodging, meals, practice rounds, entry fees, added events/purses, and ammo -- give or take a few grand in the price of the gun is insignificant.

 

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

Unless you've handled and shot a quality O/U you really can't understand... Zippy does

 

[pythagorean]

I shot trap at the University of Nevada Reno--took those recreational classes along with a major in science.

I used an 870 Wingmaster I bought in 1976. It was a fixed "modified" choke with standard (not magnum) chambering in 12 gauge.

I regularly shot 22-24 out of 25 with that.

I tried it out on doubles and my scores lowered of course. Having to rack the action was enough complication to me to want either an auto or double for two shots.

The 1100 is a great trap gun I think if the double is out of the budget.

But if you get a double you'll want to have both barrels shooting tight patterns to the same point of impact--this is a problem with most inexpensive doubles.

Take the double to the patterning board and find out what it is doing before shooting trap!

 

[abelacres]

Zippy-

Thanks for the info. I knew that some of the less expensive guns don't pattern as well or shoot to the same point of aim but I thought the main issue was longevity. I've never shot ANY O/U (I've shot side by sides, pumps, autos, my lever action and one bolt) let alone a 'quality' one but I would sure love to try one.

btw- How long does a comp gun last? How many rounds do you go through in a given period?

 

[roy reali]

re:zippy13

The fact that it may last longer is a bonus.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? I know that cars and guns are not the same thing. But some of the less expensive cars last longer and have fewer problems then the expensive ones.

If a gun is being discussed here that I have no personal, hands-on experience with, I refrain from comments. But thats me.

 

[oneounceload]

btw- How long does a comp gun last? How many rounds do you go through in a given period?

I have seen and know serious competitors who have hundreds of thousands of rounds through their guns. I have about 100,000 through my Browning now. One person's Kreighoff has seen use for 12 years, averaging 25,000/year. That's not to say a firing pin here or there might not need replacing or a spring or two, but that is minor.

I am NOT a serious competitor - shoot for fun - and I will easily shoot 10-12,000 shells a year. Olympic hopefuls and champs will eclipse that in a matter of a few weeks

 

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

How long does a comp gun last?

The beauty of a true competition gun is that parts are easily replaceable and the gun itself is easily rebuildable.. The various wear points all have replaceable parts..

 

[musicmatty]

I don't see the point in comparing Competition guns with affordable everyday work horses?? I would assume that a Comp gun is like a race car you could buy out of the showroom but the one that is used for the track is tuned for the track with much more under the hood for the task ahead.

I would be most interested in seeing 3 skilled people in competition with a Win a Rem and a Moss pump and see what they could do with the everyday work horse...just my opinion and curiosity. I would guess that most people who own guns for some target shooting and hunting and of course home defense, don't shoot several thousand rounds a year thru there guns. Again..everyday work horse guns being compared to a Comp gun seems to be an uneducated argument.

 

[oneounceload]

Why would you think a competition Perazzi, Kreighoff, Browning or Beretta are NOT everyday guns? or workhorses?..Ask Kim Rhodes how many shots she takes every day to keep her skill levels at Olympic Gold caliber - she shoots more in a week than most will do in a year - how does that not make her gun an everyday workhorse?

 

[BigJimP]

This concept that you need to own every gun discussed on this forum - or you shouldn't comment is nonsense ... Shotguns are one of my hobbies - and I talk to a lot of shooters, see a lot of guns, talk to a lot of retailers ...and based on what I see, I make appropriate comments.

I appreciate a good pump gun, a good side by side or a good semi-auto - but my "every week" - "work gun/fun gun" is a Browning Citori XS Skeet model.

I shoot that same model O/U for Skeet, Sporting Clays and some bird hunting. Today, with the adj comb, the Citori XS Skeet is roughly a $3,000 shotgun ....and in my view its very much an entry level gun in terms of even casual competition shooting / and I would not consider it capable of being a gun that would allow me to shoot my best in serious competition.

If I was 25 yrs younger, had better eyes and less orthopedic issues - and wanted to compete / Blaser, Perazzi, Kolar and Krieghoff would be on my short list - with a carrier barrel and a 12ga barrel - and a complete set of sub-gague tubes and screw in chokes - with a budget of around $15 - $30K probably.

Even as a casual shooter, I still go thru around 7500 shells a year. A few years back / when I was shooting competitively in sporting clays it was about 25,000 - 35,000 shells a year. Most of my Citori XS Skeet models have at least 100,000 shells thru them - some of them over 250,000 shells ...and I have 5 of them (2 in 12ga, 1 in 20ga, 1 in 28ga and 1 in .410 , and they're all holding up real well).

 

[zippy13]

The fact that it may last longer is a bonus.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Roy,
It's more of an observation, than a conclusion. When I bought by first comp gun, it was because I'd peaked with the generic target gun I'd been using for years. I shot a Winchester M-101 Skeet model that I purchased new in 1968. I won some club shoots with it, but I could never better a 98. In the mid 80s I got into NSSA tournaments and the old Winchester got me classified AA, but I wasn't winning much with a 98 tops. It was as if the gun was haunted, there was always something that seem to cost me an extra lost target, or two -- try as I did, the gun just wouldn't swing smoothly and had a habit of jerking at inopportune times -- it was time to investigate a new gun. After switching to a Perazzi, I shot my first 100-straight in practice almost immediately and another soon followed in competition. To me, that rapid improvement was well worth the price of the new gun. When I got the P-gun I didn't consider that it would be still going strong 20+ years and 1,000,000s of shots later, that was a bonus.

I would assume that a Comp gun is like a race car you could buy out of the showroom but the one that is used for the track is tuned for the track with much more under the hood for the task ahead.

The comp shooter, like the race driver, wants his performance to be limited by his ability, not the tools he's using.

I would guess that most people who own guns for some target shooting and hunting and of course home defense, don't shoot several thousand rounds a year thru there guns.

Why would you make that assumption? It doesn't take much to shoot several thousand rounds in a year. As a casual shooter, it's easy to shoot a 100 rounds a few times each month and that quickly adds up to over 2,000/year. But, you're correct, there's a difference between shooters and gun owners. For every shooter who's active at his local club or range, there's probably quite a few gun owners who are still working on their first box of shells.

 

[BigJimP]

The other side of this discussion ...is I really wish there was a $500 or even a $1,000 O/U that I could personally recommend as a solid buy / long term gun ... that would hold up for a casual shooter --- shooting 1,000 targets a year...

Obviously some of the responders on here disagree - saying that gun is here now - Mossberg's, Baikals, CZ's, TriStar's, etc ....and in the long run, I really hope they're right !

Its not a scientific sample ...but there was 2 young guys shooting at my club yesterday ....one had a used Baikal that he said was about a year or so old / and one had a relatively new TriStar O/U sold by Cabela's. The guy shooting the Baikal was having trouble getting shells out of his uppper barrel - and he mentioned the ejector was broken --- and he'd gone to a few places and no-one could get the parts to fix it - so he was just putting up with it the best he could. At one point during the round - the TriStar started doubling ...and the shooter said, oh yeah, that he needed to send it in for some warranty repair ...but he was shooting it in the meantime ...

The mechanical issues aside ....it was really obvious that neither gun / really "Fit" either shooter. It looked to me like both guns were shooting at least a foot low at 21 yards ... By the same token / they were having a good time / sun was shining --- targets were flying ....and as long as they broke about 15 or so in a round of 25 on Skeet ---- they were happy. They both wanted to shoot better ...and we were trying to help them on hold points, stance, follow-thru, etc ....( after we asked if they wanted some tips ) ..../but with guns that "Fit" like that ...it wasn't going to happy anytime soon !

On top of that - the mechanical issues on both of those guns --- make them 100% Unacceptable guns to me / even if they could be "Fit" properly ...even on the most casual basis. Roy - you asked earlier - what I base my comment of 2 or 3 out of 10 of these guns seem to be ok ....its based on seeing guns like this. Based on what I see ... 7 or 8 of the Baikals, TriStars, CZ's, etc ...seem to have problems like this ....

I hope what I see - long term - with some of these guns changes ...but in the meantime, I'll be critical until I see something different ...

 

[markj]

Unless you've handled and shot a quality O/U you really can't understand

There sure are some fine ones out there, but I am and always wil be a semi auto guy. I did get a 410 double a side by side for my son to start out with. It isnt a expensive gun but someting to learn on then he can move up to what he wants and needs.

Some of the guns I have handled had tubes you could swap out for other guages they weighed the same so you lost nothing on a change out. Cost is high but for the precision that is what it takes.

More money means you can afford better things. Dont mean what you can afford isnt good enough. Like hamburger to a filet.

 

[roy reali]

re:BigJimP

On top of that - the mechanical issues on both of those guns --- make them 100% Unacceptable guns to me / even if they could be "Fit" properly ...even on the most casual basis. Roy - you asked earlier - what I base my comment of 2 or 3 out of 10 of these guns seem to be ok ....its based on seeing guns like this. Based on what I see ... 7 or 8 of the Baikals, TriStars, CZ's, etc ...seem to have problems like this ....

So you have seen at least ten samples of each "cheapie" shotgun and observed that two or three of each were satisfactory? There are quie a few brands of "cheapie" shotguns on the market. The few "cheapie" shotguns I have seen worked just fine. In fact, with a 100 percent flawless record. I therefore conclude that "cheapie" shotguns are not all flawed.