What Went Wrong?

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Should I return it because it was defective for not being defective?
Absolutely! It failed to fail. Even though the sagest internet experts sagely advised you against firing it because it would fail to fire and surely dismember you due to the failure to explode, you took the gun afield and fired it with blatant disregard for the massive global damage it caused, and yet failed to cause. If a buttefly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane, the damage caused by the lack of damage must be catastrophic! Therefore you are negligent of negligence and the internet experts were correct in presuming their presumptions, presumably. I demand reparations! Please send me a check, post haste.

If poor quality fit and finish on a shotgun were cause for alarm, all those thousands of Savage, Mossberg, and High Standard shotguns sold over the past 100 years would have caused the world to fall into the sun long ago. I'm glad your shotgun works well. Enjoy it!
 
I doubt anyone on this forum cares if you're a student / working at McDonalds for $8 an hour .....a guy making $30K a year ....or a guy making $100,000 a year ....

I realize I'm defending some of us on the forum / that take more of a long term approach to shotguns - primarily from a clay target perspective ...

but the real enemy here is the mfg's / that have jumped into the arena of O/U's - because shooters wanted something that looked like a Browning or a Beretta - and the mfg's smelled money and saw a market. What I think the customers really wanted - was a serviceable gun / nothing fancy --bare bones ....but they wanted guns that would hold up "for awhile" - without the extras they perceived that added price without increased functionality ....

I think, most of the mfg's that jumped into that arena - took advantage of buyers - and some mfg's took their mfg'ing overseas to countries that had little if any idea of how to make a decent O/U ---like Russia and sometimes Turkey.... The result were some terrible guns - bad parts, guns that fired both barrels at once, ribs that fell off, stocks that cracked, firing pin springs or components that failed - and what I think is the biggest problem - barrels that had different Points of Impact .....and sometimes wildly different ---at 21 yards one was high and right 10" / and other barrel was low and left 6" on a Hugulu a young shooter bought at my club .....

The other problem is that gun shop retail salespeople ....have very little experience with shotguns ....often repeating what the marketing rep says, or going based on price, or what the senior sales guy says ....and there is all kinds of really poor info out there!

Noone like to admit they got suckered in buying a $500 gun let alone a $3,000 gun ....

I'm critical of retailers that sell a "Citori" ....as the last gun you'll ever need ....when they may not even realize there are about 25 Citori models - let alone that they are not created equally. As an example, of the 25 or so models of Citori out there -- about 20 of them, would be a complete waste of money for me personally, because they do not "Fit" me. Now they are all solid, well built guns ...but it sure doesn't mean they are for me !!

What some of us are trying to say - is educate yourself - on price, on quality, on durability, on weight, on balance - on what stock dimensions fit you ...as you make your choices to spend money on a shotgun. As long as you do that / based on your budget ...and make an informed choice ....I and everyone else on this forum will be happy for you.

I will also tell you that 2 or 3 out of 10 guns that come out of some of these mfg's seem to be pretty good ....for 2,500 or maybe even 10,000 shells ...but the question is, looking at a gun in a box, how the heck do you know / and what is going to happen if it isn't ...can it be fixed, who will fix it, how long will it be gone, where do you send it ....???

but to just rant at your perception that some of us are picking on less expensive shotguns with no reason - does not contribute to the discussion ---and in fact, it reinforces what some of those poor mfg's and poor retailers know ( that if you make it look pretty good on the surface ) you can fool the buyers into not checking out what you've really put into the gun ( or worse yet, what you left out ) ... :eek:
 
The more expensive guns have enough problems. The $2k to $4k guns. The less expensive ones simply tend to have more problems. It's just a fact of life.
 
If you are the kind of guy who shoots a box of shells a year it will last you a lifetime. Much more than that and you will understand in a few years. You will reach a point where it will cost more to repair the gun than it's worth.

Yea, I'd love to have a cheap double that works too. Been there and done that just like you tried. Wish someone had given me good advice 30 years ago. I wouldn't have wasted so much money on cheap doubles that let me down eventually.

Want a cheap shotgun that will hold up and work, buy a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870.
 
Well Lizziedog...To each his own for sure..I don't think it does any good to insult those who have and can afford more or those who can't or simply choose not to have such high dollar gear.

Anymore..I buy used guns in good condition..a little refurbishing is good for the soul I believe. At age 43..Im old school and pair of old Military Surplus wool pants and wool shirt will do me on a cold winters day out deer hunting with my old Trustworthy model 94 with the smell of hopps #9 drifting outward from it. Maintaining a weapon is more essential to the art than owning an expensive or cheapo model when it comes time to score the catch. :)
 
re:BigJimP

I will also tell you that 2 or 3 out of 10 guns that come out of some of these mfg's seem to be pretty good ....for 2,500 or maybe even 10,000 shells ...but the question is, looking at a gun in a box, how the heck do you know / and what is going to happen if it isn't ...can it be fixed, who will fix it, how long will it be gone, where do you send it ....???

May I ask where you got these figures from? Do you have a reference for them or at least a web link for further study?
 
#27
pythagorean
Senior Member


Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 578 Sometimes we forget "you get what you pay for."

I don't buy into that anymore. The American Automobile industry by itself disproves that "you get what you pay for" belief. Many products abroad are becoming vastly superior to the norm or what we once considered to be 'outstanding' in quality...and they are much cheaper because of the $$ exchange..China is catching fire with this very quickly. :cool:
 
Gather 'round here boys and lemme tell ya there's nothin' I loves better than showing up some snootie with an expensive gun.

Best one was a pheasant hunt. This snob had his fancy English gun. I had my ole side-by-side. Well boys, I sure showed him.

I killed a pile o' pheasants that day. He only got one. The gun snob was darn near tears 'cause my cheap ass gun beat him so bad.

Yessir, lil' ole me and muh $6,000 dollar Arrieta beat an $80,000 Holland and Holland that day.

Then there was the time me an muh lil' old $9,000 Perazzi hit way more of them clay thingies than some fancy Dan with a $100,000 Fabbri. Sure showed him that fancy don't get 'er done.

Ain't I jest AWESOME. :rolleyes:
 
"The gun snob was darn near tears 'cause my cheap ass gun beat him so bad."

He was probably thinking about having to clean that one bird (or maybe your cooking for all I know) and all he really wanted to do for supper was dine at a nice restaurant and flirt with the hired help. :D

In other news, we're not all snobs, it's just that some of us have had our fill of spending money on guns that weren't quite reliable enough - and then having to spend more money to replace them or fix them. Expensive lessons are usually the easiest ones to remember. Reminds me of my first wife...
 
I guess I look at it a different way than the OP. A cheap gun might work OK out of the box, but a cheap gun will always be a cheap gun. Sure, expensive guns can fail, but on average the cheaper the gun the more likely there will be a problem sooner or later. It might be corrosion, or inexpensive parts breaking, etc. Plus I would bet my house that in 20 years parts would be harder to find for a cheap Chinese, Korean, Viet Nam, etc. type gun than a more expensive gun made by a reputable maker. There will be a demand for the better gun if you want to sell it in the future.

I learned a long time ago that cheap will stay cheap & quality will always be quality. The TV show "American Pickers" is about 2 guys going around America looking for quality items from the past. I don't think they have ever said "OH look, this was made in China 40 years ago!!! It's priceless. I've got to have it."
 
When you buy a new gun, perhaps you ask yourself, "Would my grandson be proud to pass this down to his son?" perhaps not.
 
As a teen the sixties and early seventies, I was told by a lot of people Spanish shotguns were junk and to stay away. Some of those same shotguns bring a premium today. I don't see this happening with any Baikal’s but it wouldn't surprise me to see some like the CZ become very sought after.
 
I don't buy into that anymore. The American Automobile industry by itself disproves that "you get what you pay for" belief. Many products abroad are becoming vastly superior to the norm or what we once considered to be 'outstanding' in quality...and they are much cheaper because of the $$ exchange..China is catching fire with this very quickly.

It is true that "you get what you pay for" is not always true. But, for the most part, it is true. That was my point.
 
I was told by a lot of people Spanish shotguns were junk and to stay away.

That would be correct - they had issues with bad heat treating during the time , aka "soft metal". That problem was corrected, and they are now the largest selling group in England of fine SxS, more than their English counterparts.

UTAS, from Turkey, made high-quality guns for S&W and Kimber. Unfortunately, they suffered in sales because of the bad rep on guns from Turkey where everyone thinks Huglu is the only maker. The Kimber was a H&H sidelock action while the S&W is the triggerplate action design - both are very well executed with proper barrel regulation, polished bluing, crisp triggers and excellent wood-to-metal work. The S&W is a true case-colored action, not a cheaper imitation.

Both were worth their original MSRP's, and now can be had for half
 
You don't always get what you pay for but you usually pay for what you get. When I was into trap shooting, I had several B grade guns (BT99, Citori, and others ) but the Remington 870/1100 seam to fit me the best out of the box. Today I shoot a couple rounds a week and am happy with the 870 and 1100 yes I know they are not equal to the better single and double guns but they work for me at my level (presently shooting an 870 that was made in 1955, in like new condition). If you want to be competitive at the top level, you need the best equipment( fitted to you), dedication and good training. I just shoot for fun and enjoy shooting vintage guns. :)
 
My Dad used to beat those guys had expensive side by sides with a winchester 97 :) and that was a heavy gun. I will keep my semis, a double just dont do it for me, hate to give up quail when they get up. Only 2 just dont do the covey justice....
 
It's not the hardware, it's the software. But if you're running a Commodor 64 you best be one hella fancy programer.
That being said I just bought a yildez 20ga O/U (my second, I sold the first after deciding my 870 worked better for trap) to get used to the O/U thing. I shoot 2 rounds of skeet per week, this means roughly 2600 rds thru the gun per year if I don't use one of my 311's from time to time. So if it only holds up to 10,000 rds, that's about 4 years of shooting. I paid $400 so a Benj per year, I'm happy. However I have my eye on a K20 with a full set of tubes that I'll never be able to afford so I can appreciate the finer things in life.
 
You don't always get what you pay for id put my saiga or s&w 12 ga against any multi 000$ guns any day and ill blow them out of the water. Ill do the same with my springfield GI .45 against a kimbler, and my m14 agenst any fine bolt action .308 and at the end of the day come out ahead. If you want to go spend a few grand on a gun that's on you more power to you. If you want a gun that isn't scared to be dropped in the dirt and mud often times cheaper is better.Which would you rather take down a pot hole filled old muddy dirt road a Lincon or an old ford? Id put money that if the gun in the 1000+ range imported gun malfunctions it'll be more expensive to fix then a $200. About the only thing I can think of that the old saying is true for is ammo. cheap tula and bear just dont come up to snuff when it comes to winchester, federal or even hand loaded.
 
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