What to do - Armed Robbery

Win-win, why not?

If my hands aren't in my front pants pockets (or jacket pockets in cold weather), they will be in my pockets as soon as I spot the potential BG but a hair before I appear to register his presence if I choose to.

And if he shows a weapon and orders me to give him his wallet, I have no choice but to remove my hands from my pockets to do so. He expects it. Hell, he's done everything but draw me pictures.

So I start to take my hands out of my pockets, not fast, not slow. He's happy. Then it's my turn to be happy. Kind of a win-win thing there.
 
My dad was held up the other day in a downtown neighborhood (ghetto) while showing a house to 2 women (rather large women). My dad, BTW, is a 65 year old, overweight, white, inner-city preacher... The guy saw him put $20 in his pocket 30 mins earlier and staked him out. When my dad went to get into his truck, the 20yr old guy came up an blocked the door, telling my dad to "give me yo' left pocket!" with his hand in his pocket on his gun (so he said).... My dad first thought he was a kid from our inner-city church, not realizing the guy wanted his money... Once he understood what was going on, and that the guy said that he had a gun, my dad threw his door open and knocked the guy back, then punched him in his head, knocking him down again. While trying to get back on his feet he decided to reach for my dad's pocket, as to manually take the money. My dad swatted his hand and started to beat him away, picking up a bottle laying on the ground. He then proceeded to chase the thief down the street with a broken bottle!

My dad held his own very well and was also very lucky. He ended up with a torn pair of shorts and a scraped knee, but kept all of his money and chased that little bastard off. It was later confirmed that this particular guy did in fact carry a gun and robbed people quite often. My dad Identified the guy in a lineup and he is still awaiting trial. I tried to get my dad to start carrying a gun under his seat, but he says it would be hypocritical to Preach against guns and violence in his church and carry a gun in his car.... oh well, I still carry, but I dont think of it like he does.
 
he says it would be hypocritical to Preach against guns and violence in his church and carry a gun in his car....
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Well, he's right.


So the correct answer is to change his preaching! :D


Hey, he was willing to use a door, his fist, and a broken bottle as weapons, wasn't he?
 
Yes, but that was in order to protect himself.....to him, carrying a gun is as if you are looking for trouble (his logic, not mine). I drive a van into the projects to pick up kids for the church, and when I drive at night, I always keep my Beretta 3032 in my pocket. My dad (the Pastor) also drives a van but instead of a pistol, he keeps a small golf swing trainer (30" long) that has a weight on the end. ??? I don't know. I just pray that nobody messes with him. :)
 
yep

i like to be a bad as#, i like to know that i am the hardest mo fracky in the coffee shop. unfortunatlly i am not. so if someone has that kind of drop on me i would do everything that they asked. that would be the day that i got robbed. the only way that i would ever try to disarm or disable the BG is if the opportunity slaped me rite in the face. and i had no other way. other than that i would do nothing.
in a perfect world though, i would say "you feel lucky punck, do ya" and then i would draw down on his sorry but and shoot him full of clint's cough syrup. but to bad huh?
 
Unless you're the legendary Jelly Bryce...

bryce.jpg



No. You can't match a .40 of a second draw.

Put away the silly jokes and Gun Shop Commandos.

BTW, two things.

You can practice these "proposed" manuevers with a friend and two blowback Airsoft guns.

Also, isn't this cool? Legendary Barrow gang. Look at the BAR near the hood.
clydebarrow.jpg
 
armed robbery

You really want an answer?

Ok.

One of my acquaintances was at a filling station when he was robbed at gunpoint. He was carrying concealed. He drew and killed his assailant.

The acquaintance was no arm chair commando or computer jockey. He was trained by the same person who trained me.

I am older. Few people are trained to draw and fire from concealed. One of my classmates was doing the following consistently in October 2004 - .35 second from command to draw and firing from concealed. Using a borrowed Glock in a borrowed belt holster and concealed under an open jacket. I can't do it that fast.

I have another acquaintance who used to deliver jewelry. He was followed by a bandit who approached him and tried to rob him at a stoplight. The perp was leaning in from the passenger side and had him at gunpoint with a government .45acp. The next thing that happened was that the perp was dead, leaning into the car. Again, this acquaintance was not an armchair commando. He had been trained.


I have another acquaintance who was carrying concealed. He was not LEO. He was leaving a Dojo in a west coast city when they walked into a gang initiation. The perps were not just robbing. The people were on their knees and with guns trained on them when they reacted. Two bad guys died. No good guys were hit with fired shots.

You will do what you want - trained or untrained. My point is that you stand a better chance if you are TRAINED>
 
If the man is dumb enough to move in close to me, it opens a window for me to disarm him, especially since he would be more concerned about what is in my pockets than what I might do to him.

That being said, I don't think I would need to draw on him if he opens himself up to a physical attack and disarming.
 
Seeing as this thread has popped up again ....

38SnubFan
As novel as the concept of your immediate reaction sounds, please tell me how you are going to draw and get off the first shot when the BG already as their gun drawn? This is why most of us would make a distraction or otherwise fight. Chances are that he who has the gun drawn first is going to get off the first shot. If the BG has already drawn on me, then I'm more likely to stall for time so that way I'm not getting "mowed down" while I'm in mid-draw. ETC
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Actually, the last thing most BGs expect is an instantaneous attack while they have their own gun or knife drawn or pointed at you. They are most likely themselves relying on submissive and cowed compliance.

There are many variables of course; but the odds are more in your favor if you see trouble as it is approaching rather than looking up from your car keys or other chore and seeing a gun leveled at you. If one stays in condition yellow this is far less likely to happen. Shifting into orange at the first sign of trouble coming - if an exit is not the best option - a discreet releasing of any holster retainer and a preparation to draw can be made without raising a flag for your mark. In such a covert ready status to draw and shoot is much faster and likely to take most BGs off guard. Having a fast handling handgun with a practiced draw and fire at close distances can only help in this regard.

If you let yourself get taken by complete surprize you are already in deep trouble. The intial shock puts the BG in a better psychological condition to act as you on the otherhand might need a few seconds to settle and size things up. An opportunity - preferably sooner than later - may have BG avert his eyes for just a second or so. A noise, other approaching people, vehicle, anything that might cause them to turn their head might be your opportunity.

But it must be emphasized that the longer a confrontation progresses, the less the odds are in your favor. Unless anything happens by to spook them, your BG's confidence is likely to be higher as things progress and has assured himself that he has control.

As an aside I note the frequency, which I may rightly or wrongly perceive as being on the increase, where BGs are shooting their robbery victims regardless of whether the goods are handed over or not. Personally, I would not be tempted to appeal to the mercy of any street thug regardless.
 
Just a thought

I'm new to this forum, so I really, really hope I don't make anyone mad, but I feel like I have to throw my wallet, as it were, into this discussion. :rolleyes:

There are an alarming number of posts I have read in this thread with people stating that they would try to outdraw or outshoot a BG with his gun drawn and trained on you. This is extremely foolish. Even if you are a highly trained individual, that type of thinking is clearly insane. (IMHO) I mean come on, really....its money. Let the punk have it and go. Let him kill himself with more drugs. Who cares. I've seen people say, wrestle the gun away, stick your finger here or there. You people CAN'T be serious right?
Just as a test....take a cap gun or some other similar toy weapon. Conceal it in your normal method of carry. Give a buddy another one. Now try to grab his or outdraw him. Hell, let me in on this action. You can have MY wallet if he doesn't "KILL" you.

The ONLY way I would ever attempt this sort of rash action is if I believed I had no other choice, and that this type of thing was the only chance I had at saving my life. Now don't get me wrong, if I had a reasonable window in which to get my gun to bear, I would in a split second. But THINK about what you are saying. I'd be happy to try this excercise with ANYONE, all day long. Odds are the person with the already drawn weapon would come out the 'winner' 9 out of 10 times. Want to bet your life on those odds? Not me.

Now again if I come off wrong in this post, it was not my intention to anger anyone, as I respect everyones opinion....

Derius
 
Derius,

How do you know it's just money? Are you willing to bet MY life that it's just money?

As far as speed, the perp's clock starts when he realises you are drawing a gun. That's why feigned compliance or planned distraction or perhaps immediate reaction is needed. As noted above, BG's HAVE been killed with guns in their hands.

Each person has to plan for and evaluate his own circumstances. A decision to draw can get you killed, and a decision not to draw can get you killed. The discussion on this thread is priceless, but the conclusions are all useless.
 
I guess you have to evaluate each situation as it arises, as each are different. Like I said, you have to decide, but going bravo and trying to grab a guys gun, or out cowboy him, could turn a situation where you lost 20 bucks into a situation where someone lost their life. Is either of your lives worth the money, credit cards, or whatever in your wallet? Like I said, don't get me wrong, if I had even the slightest notion that he intended to kill me, its him or me with whatever desperate move I can get off. And I see where your comming from. Here is a clearly disturbed, dangerous individual brandishing a weapon, so your life is clearly in mortal danger, and you can't afford to take that chance. Believe me I TRUELY, TRUELY, understand. More than you know.....I guess its just a gut-check feeling for whomever is in that situation, and I really hope no one ever experiences it.

I was simply stating that alot of the posts seem to come off as if certain people almost advocated the gun wrestling, cowboy crap as plan 'A', and that could get alot of green people with thier shiney new concealed liscenses killed.....quickly.......and make us all appear as gun happy, ready, eager to kill crazies, not much better than the BG's. (I personally don't feel that way, but think about liberal media.......)
 
I have a shiny new CCW permit...How to I scuff it up a bit? Really, where can I seek the sort of training you have had? I definatly realize the need for it.
 
AVISPLS: Uncle Sam gives wonderful, mostly free (minus blood & sweat) training at taxpayers expense. ;)

But, other than that, there are ALOT of firearms trainers/instructors that offer advanced classes covering almost every combat and non combat situation you can think of. They can cost a little money, but you can get alot of good training usually reserved for 'non-civilians'.

Just remember a few things when picking an instructor.

(In my opinion)

1. Make sure your instructor is properly trained and certified to teach you the stuff he's teaching. If he is, he WILL have a state or federal certification number that you can use to check his credentials.

2. Make sure you are comfotable with, and ready for the stuff you are about to learn. Train hard and diligently, and hopefully your training will take over in a defensive situation.

3. Remember most likely, the vast majority of people who now have their CCW have went through the majority of their life, and have never yet had to kill anyone. They have either survived by luck, wits, skill, or the grace of God, and most likely that will hopefully continue to get you through the rest of your life, also without having to kill anyone. (In my opinion, wether justified or not, it CAN weigh on you mentally, all macho bull**** aside if you have to end someone's life)

4. Make sure that your new training and confidence in yourself and your ability doesn't go to your head and make you more apt to respond forcefully when you don't need to. You are not in war, in acute danger every second of your existence, and living like you are can drive you to drink.

Overall, be prepared, be able, and be cautious. That way, if the need does arise where its you agaist the BG, you have the best chance of coming out alive.

"Chance favors the prepared mind....." :D

Derius
 
Im asking for it...

Derius,

I feel as though I am walking into a joke, but please explain AVISPLS. Mr. google has not heard of it, and frankly neither have I.

Keep up the interesting discussion,
CC
 
MAN...!!! You work in a BAD neighborhood....

May I respectfully suggest relocating to the mall...or somewhere else...in fact almost anywhere else?

FWIW

Chuck

-------------------------------------------

You BETCHA I got lucky.

I ....CHANGED.....EVERYTHING......after that first episode. I had the false security of a controlled entrance. BZZZZZZT.....wrong!

The secured entrance ASSURES the perp that he will be left alone while he does his thing. I changed the bars and security to where people could come and go at will with no barrier to entrance or exit. Instead I changed to locking ME in a cage. Oh golly, is this a robbery? Please don't shoot or I won't be able to give you anything and you can't get in to TAKE it.

NO MORE safe facing customers. Safe afterwards faced ME. AND I had a safe door between me and customers while I searched for stuff.

GUN FIRST......I thwarted a subsequent ....attempt....by NOW ....FINALLY...being aware! Hot day, overcoat, fast move into coat....MY gun out.....low hold....him cussing.....me telling him not to move hand.....his buddy coming in from hiding around doorjamb.....both leaving and cussing me out.

You ....think....you're ready, but you're not. However, if you get ONE lucky break, you LEARN fast.

But that stupid controlled exit is the stupidest move. I had several subsequent incidents where ....wrong..... looking fellas took a look around, saw customers entering behind them and just.....left.

Also gave up the .380 and changed to .357 snub and several VISIBLE guns ALWAYS within reach.

And added video, secret codes, all that. We had a phrase that meant "KILL THIS GUY NOW" Fortunately, never used it.

Also developed and trained to say, "Oh hell, what did you DO? Lookit all the COPS in the parkin lot." They ....would.....turn to look.

And......then...............
 
Derius,

Bill Jordan used to demonstrate just the thing you describe... he could draw and "fire" faster than a member of the audience holding a gun on him could react.

I always thought that was well and good... not many of us are anywhere near as good as Mr. Jordan was on his worst day. Still, it was an interesting demonstration... and while in college along with several of my friends I started practicing just that trick. BIG SURPRISE!!! it didn't take long to hone our ability so our action would beat reaction... and do it regularly.

The point I am making is I think it is POSSIBLE to come out on top in a situation such as described in the scenario...if one is prepared for that possibility.

With respect to your comments re training in a seperate post, there are lots of second tier training facilities that do a good job at reasonable prices... they are just not as well known and have to be found. Naturally, the BIG name schools do a good job for the most part as well.

FWIW

Chuck


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I'm new to this forum, so I really, really hope I don't make anyone mad, but I feel like I have to throw my wallet, as it were, into this discussion.

There are an alarming number of posts I have read in this thread with people stating that they would try to outdraw or outshoot a BG with his gun drawn and trained on you. This is extremely foolish. Even if you are a highly trained individual, that type of thinking is clearly insane. (IMHO) I mean come on, really....its money. Let the punk have it and go. Let him kill himself with more drugs. Who cares. I've seen people say, wrestle the gun away, stick your finger here or there. You people CAN'T be serious right?
Just as a test....take a cap gun or some other similar toy weapon. Conceal it in your normal method of carry. Give a buddy another one. Now try to grab his or outdraw him. Hell, let me in on this action. You can have MY wallet if he doesn't "KILL" you.

The ONLY way I would ever attempt this sort of rash action is if I believed I had no other choice, and that this type of thing was the only chance I had at saving my life. Now don't get me wrong, if I had a reasonable window in which to get my gun to bear, I would in a split second. But THINK about what you are saying. I'd be happy to try this excercise with ANYONE, all day long. Odds are the person with the already drawn weapon would come out the 'winner' 9 out of 10 times. Want to bet your life on those odds? Not me.

Now again if I come off wrong in this post, it was not my intention to anger anyone, as I respect everyones opinion....

Derius
 
CanoeCrasher, AVISPLS is just a slightly misspelled version of my name. No Joke.

Derius: Thanks. I think Im going to try to take one when i can. Where does uncle sam offer such instructional courses?
 
Derius: Thanks. I think Im going to try to take one when i can. Where does uncle sam offer such instructional courses?
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I think he was referring to the training offered in places like Fort Benning, Georgia by a screaming drill sergeant.
 
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