What to do - Armed Robbery

..........now add your wife/girlfriend/sister and an infant in your arms to this equation. :D

My wife and 18 mo. old go out to various places. I know about situational awareness, but can anyone here say they've NEVER been surprised by someone on the street/parking lot/mall/etc.? What if the perp(s) just start by pointing the gun at your wife? Your child?
 
With-in five feet, NICE!!!! Pain infliction very nice, BG on the floor with his gun in my pocket and my CCW in his mouth till the PD gets there, senerio ended.

I'd never keep my gun within arm's reach of someone I'd just disarmed for more than a couple seconds, let alone within "mouth" distance...That's only for Hollywood, and people who are so emotional under stress that they shouldn't be carrying guns in the first place.
 
The one local case of "drawing on a drawn gun" I know of involved a local IDPA/IPSC shooter who was an armed guard for a armored truck company.

He was working alone in a busy supermarket in the middle of the day, getting the cash out of the safe in the manager's kiosk when a local loser walked up like a customer and aimed a pistol at his head. He (the guard) had apparently stated in the past he would not give up the money and would draw in that situation, so he went to "Plan A". This guy by all accounts was as fast from his duty rig as anyone could be, practiced from all positions, had pretty much -zero- reflex delay.

He died from the gunshot wound, his wife is a widow and his kids are without a father. The guy was followed out of the store by customers (pre-CCW law IIRC) across the street and into a nearby neighborhood where the cops got him.

Did he do the right thing? Or should he have had a "Plan B"?

Anybody local, if I got anything wrong or left something out please correct me.
 
As near as I can tell from the situation described that if you are carrying and get surprised by a guy armed with a pistol who robs you of valuables and THEN moves in to check your pockets himself, then you are about in the second best place you could be at that moment. The best place you could be is with the guy running away after getting your valuables.

Why would it be good for the guy to move in on you? Simple. He has sacrificed a large part of his advantage over you. With a gun out and a few feet out of your reach and your gun holstered, you will have trouble defeating him. One, as pointed out, you are not going to outshoot him by drawing from concealment when he already has a gun out and on you. You will be only 1-2 seconds slower than him in getting off that first shot. With the bad guy out of reach, then you can't do any sort of disarming moves. He is using distances as a safety, fully using his gun's ability to still be able to harm you from distance against your potential weapons of anything at arm's reach. You can't grab his gun and you can't punch him at distance.

So if the guy moves in to search your pockets, things are looking up for you. The guy has then sacrificed that advantage of distance and has put both himself and his gun within your reach. You now have your chance to mount a successful counter attack if you feel you can.
 
Double Naught Spy makes a great point.

If an attacker is close enough to put his hands on you, then YOU are close enough to get your hands on HIM.

The part of the scenario described as to the BG checking my pockets somewhat bothered me, for this one reason: The moment I throw him my wallet, I'm going to put as much distance between him and myself as quickly as I can (if possible).

Running off to his side in an attempt to confuse him, I should have that "magic second" to draw my weapon and acquire the target. At this point, I'd yell loudly to the assailant to drop my wallet and his weapon. If he fails to IMMEDIATELY do either, I'm firing until he's down.

Back to Double Naught's point, however: If he's attempting to check my pockets, then I'm going to fight to retain my weapon. The first thing I'm going to do is either grab his gun away from him or at least keep the muzzle pointed away from me. The second thing I'm going to do is draw my weapon, aim to his CNS or COM, and without hesitation, PULL THE TRIGGER.

A couple of tricks I've been taught regarding grabbing a hold of the assailant's weapon to where it cannot fire:

-Autoloaders: grab the slide and pull it back, thus taking it out of battery.

-Revolvers w/ spur hammer: If the hammer is down, get a finger behind the hammer spur and squeeze as hard as you can - this will keep the BG from being able to pull the trigger. If the hammer is already cocked, get a finger between the hammer and the firing pin - it's probably going to hurt like Hell when your finger gets pinched, but it's better than getting a new body piercing via lead bullet.

-Revolvers w/ spurless hammer: Same as with a spur-hammer revolver, if you can get pressure on the hammer and keep it down, the BG most likely won't be able to pull the trigger.

-Revolvers w/ internal hammer: This will actually work with all revolvers. Wedge your pinky finger behind the trigger. Yeah, it's gonna hurt. Yeah, it's probably even going to break your finger. However, if he can't get the trigger the entire way rearward because your pinky is blocking it, he can't get the gun to fire.

I'm sure there's many other approaches to this same scenario. Just thought I would get my 2 cents in...

Sincerely,
Matthew Webb
Franklintown, PA
 
Running off to his side in an attempt to confuse him, I should have that "magic second" to draw my weapon and acquire the target. At this point, I'd yell loudly to the assailant to drop my wallet and his weapon. If he fails to IMMEDIATELY do either, I'm firing until he's down.

Good luck when you tell the prosecutor that you shot him because he didn't drop your wallet when you told him to.
 
Frank....

Wasn't so concerned about him dropping my wallet as I am the gun. Point I forgot to add is that I don't carry my cash in my wallet - anything in it is cancellable/replaceable. The fact of the matter is that he has already threatened me with a deadly weapon. As long as that weapon is still in his hand, he his still a threat. Therefore, he has the choice to end the threat himself or I'm going to end it for him. Either way, the threat will be neutralized.

I don't see a problem justifying self-defense to a prosecutor when explained that way. Either direction, (said again 'til it's old) "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."

Sincerely,
Matthew Webb
Franklintown, PA
 
Here's what you said, and first impressions mean a lot to a jury:

I'd yell loudly to the assailant to drop my wallet and his weapon. If he fails to IMMEDIATELY do either, I'm firing until he's down.

Now you're saying you weren't too concerned about the wallet, but just a minute ago, you said you'd shoot him until he was down if he failed to "immediately drop" your wallet when you told him to?" Isn't it true that after he dropped his gun, you shot him until he could no longer stand because he didn't drop your property quick enough for you? And how was it that you were in fear for your life because the guy was holding a pistol on you, but you had time to first, draw your gun, then yell to him to not only drop his gun, but your wallet too, and then shoot him when he didn't drop your wallet and gun fast enough for you? Why were you so concerned about him dropping your wallet when he had a gun pointed at you?

(That's what the prosecutor would say depending on how bad "the community" wanted you prosecuted.)
 
Agreed, Frank. You don't mention a wallet - not to the perp nor to anyone else. It's all about the threat to your life, never about a wallet.

That said, I don't think I'd be yelling anything at the perp under those conditions. He's armed, he gives me an opening, I'm taking that opening. If the opening looks big enough for me to remove myself from the situation, I'll go that route. If not, I'll try to remove HIM from the situation.
 
:rolleyes: Sounds trite, but, quite honestly I do everything in my power to prevent strangers from getting close to me when I’m out in public. It shocks me, a little, to realize it; but, over the years I’ve come to develop something of the attitude of a, ‘hunted animal’. There is a whole list of behaviors that I follow when I’m out and about that life inside a convent’s walls might, otherwise, have prevented me from assuming:

For instance, when I step through a doorway I always scan to both sides; frequently I’ll, also, step to the side in order to clear my, ‘back trail’ too. It’s been years since I approached my own vehicle without, ‘scanning’ my way over to the car door: I, also, have the habit of checking out the vehicles on both sides before I get into my own vehicle. Once I’m inside the car I immediately lock the doors and start the engine. (Why? I’ve had two carjacking attempts in the past 25 years; and I was extremely lucky that it didn’t come to gunfire or blades on either occasion.)

Everything said and done, I am acutely aware of anyone who gets near me when I’m outside of my home. About an hour ago we returned from the supermarket. As I was walking away from the store a very quiet fast walking woman, suddenly, started coming up behind me. For lack of a better word I, ‘felt’ her before I saw her and took one step to the side in order to look behind myself. You should have seen the look on her face when our eyes met! She had intended to brush by me before I realized she was there; instead she, ‘swallowed hard’ when I made a single move that exposed her to attack; and I was a little amused to notice that she instantly realized what I had done! (Sometimes being rude can get you in trouble.)

It’s nothing personal, though; it’s just the way street life has taught me to behave. I, also, scan my own home whenever I return. Even with Pit Bulldogs I, still, take the time to go room by room before settling in. (In 1990 we had a home invasion occur in what should have been a perfectly safe neighborhood. That one the dogs took care of for me.)

In the event that things should suddenly go FUBAR, I’ve got 30 years of MA experience to fall back on; only trouble is I’m getting older, now; and I’m presently in that, ‘gray area’ between whom I used to be, and what I’m about to become. (Today I understand, ‘Why’ old people smile all the time, and always seem to agree with whatever you say!)

Nevertheless a crafty street fighter is, still, a crafty street fighter. At ECQB distance, you’ve got to make an instant decision; in my opinion that decision should be TO FIGHT. The only question that remains is; ‘SHOULD YOU, ALSO, USE DEADLY FORCE?’ I’ve lived long enough to know that, even, handing over your wallet to a mugger isn’t going to guarantee your personal safety; you may, still, ‘buy the farm’ anyway. Nothing is written in stone: Sometimes the best move is to surrender; and at other times surrender only delays the inevitable. Given a choice, I’d feign compliance, attempt to distract; and, yes, I’d attack at the first opening.

Dropping or throwing your wallet away while backing up is a good technique. Reaching for your wallet, however, may get you shot! (It's a judgement call.) Stepping behind anything, also, gives you an immediate advantage. If there’s no time, I’d instantly attempt to sweep the weapon off my body centerline, and, with a step forward, attack: the eyes, the fingers, or the point of the chin. If you can bring a heavy knee kick into the fray that’s good, too – do it!

Whether I should step forward to use empty hand (or keychain) techniques is, really, a decision the BG makes for me. Without a visible weapon, there are more physical options available with which to reply: Running is one of them; putting anything between the two of you is another. So is, simply, showing a weapon. These are all typical everyday reactions that many intended victims often resort to. With a deadly weapon in play I’d, probably, step forward in order to immediately engage and hopefully get rid of the weapon. Failing this I’d seek to unbalance the assailant, step to the side, and get my own weapon out. I'm not going to Hell, alone!

The last thing I’d offer comes from the wisdom of old age: I have found it to be advantageous to, ‘get mean as dirt’ as quickly as possible when confronted with an attacker who is displaying a deadly weapon along with the intent to use it. Here, the presence of a weapon makes all the difference in the world to me!

Many many people will intuitively hesitate before resorting to violence. After all, ‘Why not’? This hesitation is part of every well-educated person’s social training. You only have to be a victim once, however, to recognize that; ‘He who hesitates is lost!’ IMO, what happens next is not your fault; a deadly weapon has been deployed; and time is, now, working against you. The real genius comes in being able to correctly decide between shooting a robber with a gun, or some poor bastard who’s only trying to save his dog! Do you shoot one, the other, or both? The use of deadly force, even reciprocal deadly force, requires shrewd intelligence!

I’ll offer two examples: I used to know a retired NYC police officer who had a part-time job in a gun shop. His name was, ‘Aldo’. Several of us used to shoot IPSC with Aldo. He was very very good. The thought of beating him in a match never entered my mind; I was more than happy, just, to hold my own. One day two BG’s came into the gun shop. One of them had a sawed-off shotgun; the other had a 38 pistol. There were 3 or 4 guys behind the counter; and, at least, two more gunsmiths working in the shop at the rear of the building. Everyone was ordered to raise their hands high in the air. The guy with the shotgun walked up to Aldo who was wearing his customary 1911 GM, carried in condition one. The BG pointed the shotgun at Aldo’s chest and said; ‘You, over there, and pointed to a side wall with his shotgun.

That’s all it took! In the instant that shotgun was removed from Aldo’s chest and pointed at the wall, two men died! I’ve long thought that it was stupidity or, perhaps, desperation and NOT Aldo who killed those two guys. I heard this story the day after it happened from one of the other men in the room; Aldo, himself, never talked about it.

The second story is a reminder from my own faith; it states: ‘If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.’ ‘If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution … ’ Exodus, 22:2 It would appear that there is, both, a right as well as a wrong time to use deadly force. As experienced gunmen we need to understand the difference between the two. ;)
 
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Frank....

I guess I stand corrected. Your point is well taken here. :)

On the other hand, dead men don't testify! :D

Arc Angel, you also make a very valid point. Given the scenario as originally posted, I would make every attempt to get his weapon away from me before drawing my own, as he already has his gun drawn and aimed at me. If I would attempt to simply draw against his gun without distracting him first, I'd probably end up dead as he would get his first shot off before I'd clear the holster.

Quartus, your point also being taken into consideration, I'd also try to run if I can. However, given this scenario probably places me in ECQB circumstances, I'm most likely going to go the route of Arc Angel, and fight to get out of the BG's gun's aim first to allow me that split second to draw.

Regards,
Matthew Webb
Franklintown, PA
 
Yeah,if he's close enough to check your pockets,isn't he close enough to be disarmed?Not saying it's easy(I'm no Steven Segal)but I'd rather go down fighting than be shot by a guy with 2 guns,one of them mine!.....this guy will be trying to get a 250lb Italian off of him while having the fingers of his strong hand bent all to hell.....while my wife kicks him repeatedly :D
 
Excellent post, Arc. May the GSCs of the world read it and learn!

Quartus, thank you; but, before I spend the rest of the night trying to figure it out, please tell me what, 'GSC' stands for? :D
 
Gun Store Commandos. You know the kind.


"If any BG tried that, I'd probably just pistol whip him."

"That 25ACP is a real man stopper, if you know what your'e doing. Shoot 'em in the eye, and it goes in the optic nerve into the brain. Stops 'em dead every time."


"The double tap is certain death. The first shot takes out the heart and knocks him back, as he's falling, the second one takes out the ole' computer room, if ya know what I mean."



Yes, I actually have heard those. :rolleyes:
 
As soon as I saw the gun in hand I would draw and shoot. I know some people say they would pretend like they were getting their wallet while they were actually drawing their gun or quick opening knife and BLAM! or SLASH! instead, but I don't like to let things get that far. I think you're already giving the criminal too much of a chance by doing that.
 
Psychosword...

As soon as I saw the gun in hand I would draw and shoot. I know some people say they would pretend like they were getting their wallet while they were actually drawing their gun or quick opening knife and BLAM! or SLASH! instead, but I don't like to let things get that far. I think you're already giving the criminal too much of a chance by doing that.

As novel as the concept of your immediate reaction sounds, please tell me how you are going to draw and get off the first shot when the BG already as their gun drawn? This is why most of us would make a distraction or otherwise fight. Chances are that he who has the gun drawn first is going to get off the first shot. If the BG has already drawn on me, then I'm more likely to stall for time so that way I'm not getting "mowed down" while I'm in mid-draw.

Even with all the defensive training in the world and assuming you're one of those few who can draw and shoot in less than one second, this one has to rely on general common sense.

YMMV

Matt
 
I was recently in St. Louis, MO, when a member of the "economically oppressed class" tried to rob me at gun point.

It was on a stairway between a couple of buildings, while I was walking down, that he came up. He pulled the gun, gave the standard stick up demand, and came within arms reach of me.

Big mistake on his part.

Once he was within reach, I grabbed his gun hand, him too, and down the stairs we went.

Once out on the street, he realized that he, a black man with gun in hand, was struggling with an unarmed white man on the street, with people driving by and gawking.

(Where's a cop when you need one?)

So he throws the gun down and now tries pulling back into the stairway. He's no small fry either, at least 2" taller than me, and I'm 6'4"!

Once he dropped the gun, this freed up a hand, and it went to pull my knife. As soon as he saw me grabbing the handle sticking out of my pants, he let go, and I turned my back on the contemptuous punk and walked away.

Just another day in the ghetto.

If I had a gun, than that'd have been a possible grab for him, and too much temptation for me to splatter him even after he let go of me, thus no good either way.

In a situation like this, a knife is much better, as it's silent (except for the screams. :p) and wouldn't draw attention to your using a weapon like a gun would, as well as not leaving any powder residue on you nor traceable SN's like a gun would after you ditch it.

Sounds criminal, I know, but you have to act like one knowadays because of the way that the laws encourage overeager DA's to go after good people who had the misfortune of having to kill some miscreant who was trying to rape/rob/murder them. :rolleyes:
 
Got a newspaper link to the story on that one? Successful citizen defenses against armed robbers with guns always make the paper, even here in Detroit. What did you do with his gun after you picked it up?
 
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