What the heck
- Thread starter Ozzieman
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Maps, you're sort of close, but sort of far away at the same time.
Jimro, sorry, but you're on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
I'll give you that hint.
It IS an American cartridge, and is American made.
Jimro, sorry, but you're on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
I'll give you that hint.
It IS an American cartridge, and is American made.
You got it Mike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58
#38 The VZ. 58 (model 58) is a 7.62×39mm assault rifle designed and manufactured in Czechoslovakia and accepted into service in the late 1950s as the 7,62 mm samopal vzor 58 ("7.62mm submachinegun model 1958"), replacing the vz. 52 self-loading rifle and the 7.62×25mm Tokarev Sa 24 and Sa 26 submachine guns.
While externally the vz. 58 resembles the Soviet AK-47, it is a different design based on a short-stroke gas piston. It shares no parts with Kalashnikov rifles, including the magazine.[3]
Development of the weapon began in 1956; leading the project was chief engineer Jiří Čermák assigned to the Konstrukta Brno facility in the city of Brno. The Soviet Union had begun insisting that the Warsaw Pact forces standardize on a common ammunition. As a result, the prototype, known as the "Koště" ("broom"), was designed to chamber the intermediate Soviet 7.62×39mm M43 cartridge, rather than the Czech 7.62×45mm vz. 52 round, used in both the earlier vz. 52 rifle and the vz. 52 light machine gun.[4] The assault rifle entered service in 1958 and over a period of 25 years (until 1984), over 920,000 weapons had been produced, fielded by the armed forces of Czechoslovakia, Cuba and several other Asian and African nations.
The vz. 58 was produced in three main variants: the standard vz. 58 P (Pěchotní or "infantry") model with a fixed buttstock made of a synthetic material (wood impregnated plastic, older versions used a wooden stock), the vz. 58 V (Výsadkový—"airborne"), featuring a side-folding metal shoulder stock, folded to the right side, and the vz. 58 Pi (Pěchotní s infračerveným zaměřovačem—"infantry with infrared sight"), which is similar to the vz. 58 P but includes a receiver-mounted dovetail bracket (installed on the left side of the receiver) used to attach an NSP2 night sight; it also has a detachable folding bipod and an enlarged conical flash suppressor.
A successor to the vz. 58 was proposed in the 1990s; the 5.56×45mm NATO ČZ 2000 assault rifle has been suggested as a possible replacement but due to a general lack of defense funds within the Czech Republic, the program was postponed. Another recent contender is the ČZW-556 assault rifle and ČZW-762 light machine gun which both use lever-delayed blowback which has more reliable accuracy and performance over the gas operation. In 2011, the Czech army started replacing vz. 58 with CZ-805 BREN. While vz. 58 still remains the main assault rifle of the Slovak army, the Slovak army has also been eyeing CZ-805 as a possible replacement to the aging vz. 58 rifles.
The vz. 58 is a selective fire gas-operated weapon that bleeds expanding combustion gases generated in the barrel from the ignited cartridge through a port drilled in the barrel, 215 mm (8.5 in) from the chamber, opening into a hollow cylinder located above the barrel that contains a short-stroke piston. The vz. 58 does not have a gas regulator and the full force of the gas pressure is exerted on the piston head, propelling it backwards in a single impulsive blow. The piston is driven back only 19 mm (0.7 in) when a shoulder on the piston rod butts against the seating and no further movement is possible. There is a light return spring held between the piston shoulder and the seating which returns the piston to its forward position. The gas cylinder is vented after the piston has traveled back 16 mm (0.6 in) and the remaining gases are exhausted into the atmosphere on the underside of the cylinder via two ports. The entire piston rod is chromium-plated to prevent fouling.
The locking system features a locking block hinged from the bolt and housed in the bolt carrier that contains two locking lugs which descend into and engage locking shoulders in the receiver's internal guide rails. The weapon is unlocked by the short tappet-like stroke of the piston rod as it strikes the bolt carrier and drives it rearwards. After 22 mm (0.9 in) of unrestricted travel, a wedge-like surface on the bolt carrier moves under the breech locking piece and lifts it up and out of engagement with the locking recesses in the steel body. The breech locking piece swings up and this movement provides the leverage required for primary extraction. The breech block is then carried rearwards extracting the empty cartridge casing from the chamber. A fixed ejector passes through a groove cut in the underside of the bolt and the case is flung upwards clear of the gun.
The spring-loaded extractor and firing pin are both housed inside the breech lock, while the fixed ejector is located at the base of the receiver.
The weapon does not have a conventional rotating hammer but is striker-fired and the striker is a steel bar hollowed from one end almost throughout its entire length to accommodate its own operating spring. At the open end of the striker, a plate is welded and there is a groove cut in each side of this to slide on the receiver guide rails. This hammer-striker enters the hollow bolt and drives a fully floating firing pin forward with each shot.[4]
The rifle uses a trigger mechanism with a lever-type fire mode selector, which is also a manual safety against accidental discharge. When the selector lever is placed in its rear position ("1"—single fire) the sear is disabled and the left striker catch is rotated by the disconnector, which is depressed by the bolt carrier after every shot and is therefore disconnected from the striker catch. The forward setting of the selector lever ("30"—automatic fire) disables the disconnector, and the left striker catch meshes with the sear mechanism. The center ("safe") setting with the selector lever pointing vertically downwards, mechanically lowers the trigger bar and the disconnector so there is no connection between the trigger and the semi-automatic sear which holds the hammer. The rifle also has an internal safety, which prevents the weapon from discharging when out of battery. The right striker-hammer catch disables the striker-hammer, and it can only be released by pulling the charging handle back and cocking the weapon.
The weapon is fed from a detachable box magazine with a 30-round cartridge capacity and made from a lightweight alloy.[4] When the last round from the magazine is fired, the bolt will remain locked open on the bolt catch, activated by the magazine's follower. The magazine release tab is located at the base of the receiver on the left side, behind the magazine well. The bolt carrier has a built-in guide rail used for reloading from 10-round stripper clips (from the SKS rifle). Despite their similarity, vz. 58 magazines are not interchangeable with those of the AK-47 and its derivatives.
An interesting feature on this rifle is the ability to quickly change the type of stock it has. The vz. 58 can appear either with its original wood stock or folding steel stock, or with one of the many aftermarket stocks available - including AR-15 style stock adapters that mount a buffer tube to the receiver. The latter usually has the buffer tube slightly angled down as to compensate for the very low ironsights on the vz. 58. Switching between the various options requires merely removal of a bolt at the rear of the receiver and swapping in the stock of choice.
Sights[edit]
The rifle's iron sights consist of a fully adjustable front post and a tangent rear sight with a sliding notch with range denominations from 100 to 800 m, graduated every 100 m. Besides this, the left side of the rear sight leaf is marked with the letter "U" (univerzální meaning "universal"), for snap shooting, firing at moving targets and night combat at ranges up to 300 m. The rifle's sight radius is 15 inches (38 cm).[4] The front sight base also serves as a mounting platform for the vz. 58 edged bayonet.
Accessories[edit]
Several modernization accessories have been manufactured for the vz. 58 platform from different companies. Accessories include "tactical" bolt release, extended and/or ambidextrous magazine release paddles, ambidextrous fire mode selectors, custom handguard rails, several types of sight mounting options and various muzzle brakes and compensators. Both civilian and military users use these upgrades, and they also see frequent use with private military companies in the Middle East.
Additional equipment supplied with the rifle includes: 4 spare magazines, a magazine pouch, vz. 58 bayonet and scabbard, cleaning brush, muzzle cap, oil bottle, unified sling, front sight adjustment tool and a threaded blank-firing adaptor. The vz. 58 also has a proprietary bipod.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58
#38 The VZ. 58 (model 58) is a 7.62×39mm assault rifle designed and manufactured in Czechoslovakia and accepted into service in the late 1950s as the 7,62 mm samopal vzor 58 ("7.62mm submachinegun model 1958"), replacing the vz. 52 self-loading rifle and the 7.62×25mm Tokarev Sa 24 and Sa 26 submachine guns.
While externally the vz. 58 resembles the Soviet AK-47, it is a different design based on a short-stroke gas piston. It shares no parts with Kalashnikov rifles, including the magazine.[3]
Development of the weapon began in 1956; leading the project was chief engineer Jiří Čermák assigned to the Konstrukta Brno facility in the city of Brno. The Soviet Union had begun insisting that the Warsaw Pact forces standardize on a common ammunition. As a result, the prototype, known as the "Koště" ("broom"), was designed to chamber the intermediate Soviet 7.62×39mm M43 cartridge, rather than the Czech 7.62×45mm vz. 52 round, used in both the earlier vz. 52 rifle and the vz. 52 light machine gun.[4] The assault rifle entered service in 1958 and over a period of 25 years (until 1984), over 920,000 weapons had been produced, fielded by the armed forces of Czechoslovakia, Cuba and several other Asian and African nations.
The vz. 58 was produced in three main variants: the standard vz. 58 P (Pěchotní or "infantry") model with a fixed buttstock made of a synthetic material (wood impregnated plastic, older versions used a wooden stock), the vz. 58 V (Výsadkový—"airborne"), featuring a side-folding metal shoulder stock, folded to the right side, and the vz. 58 Pi (Pěchotní s infračerveným zaměřovačem—"infantry with infrared sight"), which is similar to the vz. 58 P but includes a receiver-mounted dovetail bracket (installed on the left side of the receiver) used to attach an NSP2 night sight; it also has a detachable folding bipod and an enlarged conical flash suppressor.
A successor to the vz. 58 was proposed in the 1990s; the 5.56×45mm NATO ČZ 2000 assault rifle has been suggested as a possible replacement but due to a general lack of defense funds within the Czech Republic, the program was postponed. Another recent contender is the ČZW-556 assault rifle and ČZW-762 light machine gun which both use lever-delayed blowback which has more reliable accuracy and performance over the gas operation. In 2011, the Czech army started replacing vz. 58 with CZ-805 BREN. While vz. 58 still remains the main assault rifle of the Slovak army, the Slovak army has also been eyeing CZ-805 as a possible replacement to the aging vz. 58 rifles.
The vz. 58 is a selective fire gas-operated weapon that bleeds expanding combustion gases generated in the barrel from the ignited cartridge through a port drilled in the barrel, 215 mm (8.5 in) from the chamber, opening into a hollow cylinder located above the barrel that contains a short-stroke piston. The vz. 58 does not have a gas regulator and the full force of the gas pressure is exerted on the piston head, propelling it backwards in a single impulsive blow. The piston is driven back only 19 mm (0.7 in) when a shoulder on the piston rod butts against the seating and no further movement is possible. There is a light return spring held between the piston shoulder and the seating which returns the piston to its forward position. The gas cylinder is vented after the piston has traveled back 16 mm (0.6 in) and the remaining gases are exhausted into the atmosphere on the underside of the cylinder via two ports. The entire piston rod is chromium-plated to prevent fouling.
The locking system features a locking block hinged from the bolt and housed in the bolt carrier that contains two locking lugs which descend into and engage locking shoulders in the receiver's internal guide rails. The weapon is unlocked by the short tappet-like stroke of the piston rod as it strikes the bolt carrier and drives it rearwards. After 22 mm (0.9 in) of unrestricted travel, a wedge-like surface on the bolt carrier moves under the breech locking piece and lifts it up and out of engagement with the locking recesses in the steel body. The breech locking piece swings up and this movement provides the leverage required for primary extraction. The breech block is then carried rearwards extracting the empty cartridge casing from the chamber. A fixed ejector passes through a groove cut in the underside of the bolt and the case is flung upwards clear of the gun.
The spring-loaded extractor and firing pin are both housed inside the breech lock, while the fixed ejector is located at the base of the receiver.
The weapon does not have a conventional rotating hammer but is striker-fired and the striker is a steel bar hollowed from one end almost throughout its entire length to accommodate its own operating spring. At the open end of the striker, a plate is welded and there is a groove cut in each side of this to slide on the receiver guide rails. This hammer-striker enters the hollow bolt and drives a fully floating firing pin forward with each shot.[4]
The rifle uses a trigger mechanism with a lever-type fire mode selector, which is also a manual safety against accidental discharge. When the selector lever is placed in its rear position ("1"—single fire) the sear is disabled and the left striker catch is rotated by the disconnector, which is depressed by the bolt carrier after every shot and is therefore disconnected from the striker catch. The forward setting of the selector lever ("30"—automatic fire) disables the disconnector, and the left striker catch meshes with the sear mechanism. The center ("safe") setting with the selector lever pointing vertically downwards, mechanically lowers the trigger bar and the disconnector so there is no connection between the trigger and the semi-automatic sear which holds the hammer. The rifle also has an internal safety, which prevents the weapon from discharging when out of battery. The right striker-hammer catch disables the striker-hammer, and it can only be released by pulling the charging handle back and cocking the weapon.
The weapon is fed from a detachable box magazine with a 30-round cartridge capacity and made from a lightweight alloy.[4] When the last round from the magazine is fired, the bolt will remain locked open on the bolt catch, activated by the magazine's follower. The magazine release tab is located at the base of the receiver on the left side, behind the magazine well. The bolt carrier has a built-in guide rail used for reloading from 10-round stripper clips (from the SKS rifle). Despite their similarity, vz. 58 magazines are not interchangeable with those of the AK-47 and its derivatives.
An interesting feature on this rifle is the ability to quickly change the type of stock it has. The vz. 58 can appear either with its original wood stock or folding steel stock, or with one of the many aftermarket stocks available - including AR-15 style stock adapters that mount a buffer tube to the receiver. The latter usually has the buffer tube slightly angled down as to compensate for the very low ironsights on the vz. 58. Switching between the various options requires merely removal of a bolt at the rear of the receiver and swapping in the stock of choice.
Sights[edit]
The rifle's iron sights consist of a fully adjustable front post and a tangent rear sight with a sliding notch with range denominations from 100 to 800 m, graduated every 100 m. Besides this, the left side of the rear sight leaf is marked with the letter "U" (univerzální meaning "universal"), for snap shooting, firing at moving targets and night combat at ranges up to 300 m. The rifle's sight radius is 15 inches (38 cm).[4] The front sight base also serves as a mounting platform for the vz. 58 edged bayonet.
Accessories[edit]
Several modernization accessories have been manufactured for the vz. 58 platform from different companies. Accessories include "tactical" bolt release, extended and/or ambidextrous magazine release paddles, ambidextrous fire mode selectors, custom handguard rails, several types of sight mounting options and various muzzle brakes and compensators. Both civilian and military users use these upgrades, and they also see frequent use with private military companies in the Middle East.
Additional equipment supplied with the rifle includes: 4 spare magazines, a magazine pouch, vz. 58 bayonet and scabbard, cleaning brush, muzzle cap, oil bottle, unified sling, front sight adjustment tool and a threaded blank-firing adaptor. The vz. 58 also has a proprietary bipod.
mapsjanhere
New member
Mike, that would then make it a 50-70 which happens to have the same dimensions as the Swedish 12.7x44R.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yes, it is a .50-70.
What makes it unique is that it was one of a very few Frankford arsenal made composite centerfires loaded using the Rodman Crispin patent process.
In the run up to adoption of the .50-70 the government was experimenting with a variety of case and priming systems.
The Rodman Crispin patent was first used during the Civil War to manufacture externally primed cases for a number of carbines, including the Smith and Gallager.
The drawn copper case using the Benet system was eventually adopted for issue ammunition.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
What makes it unique is that it was one of a very few Frankford arsenal made composite centerfires loaded using the Rodman Crispin patent process.
In the run up to adoption of the .50-70 the government was experimenting with a variety of case and priming systems.
The Rodman Crispin patent was first used during the Civil War to manufacture externally primed cases for a number of carbines, including the Smith and Gallager.
The drawn copper case using the Benet system was eventually adopted for issue ammunition.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Mike Irwin
Staff
38 looks like a variation on the Beretta submachine gun.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
#38 Danuvia 43M submachine gun
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 9×25mm Danuvia submachine guns (Király géppisztoly) were designed by Hungarian engineer Pál Király in the late 1930s. They were issued to Hungarian army troops in 1939 and remained in service throughout World War II until the early 1950s. A total of roughly 8,000 were made between 1939 and 1945. The Danuvia was a large, sturdy weapon, similar to a carbine. Although inspired by the 9×19mm Parabellum Beretta Model 38/42, the Danuvia used the more powerful 9×25mm Mauser round. Like the Beretta, the Danuvia's magazine can be folded forward into a recess in the stock where a plate then slides over it.
The original Danuvia was the 39M: it was redesigned in 1943 as the 43M. This, the most common version, had a shortened barrel and was provided with a forward-angled magazine. It had a folding metal buttstock and wood forestock fitted with a pistol grip. The Danuvia featured a patented two-part delayed blowback bolt. The fire selector switch is a circular cap on the rear of the receiver and is rotated to one of three settings: E (Egyes)(semiautomatic fire), S(Sorozat) (full automatic), or Z (Zárt)(the safety setting). The ejection port and cocking handle are on the right side of the receiver. It had a ramp-type rear sight above the ejection port and a post foresight at end of the barrel.
The gun was well-liked by troops it was issued to; it reportedly functioned well in the sub-zero, muddy conditions on the Eastern Front. The only difficulty was the availability of 9×25mm Mauser ammunition. It was used by the Hungarian army, military police and police forces and stayed in service until the early 1950s when it was gradually replaced by the PPSh-41 and the Kucher K1.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 9×25mm Danuvia submachine guns (Király géppisztoly) were designed by Hungarian engineer Pál Király in the late 1930s. They were issued to Hungarian army troops in 1939 and remained in service throughout World War II until the early 1950s. A total of roughly 8,000 were made between 1939 and 1945. The Danuvia was a large, sturdy weapon, similar to a carbine. Although inspired by the 9×19mm Parabellum Beretta Model 38/42, the Danuvia used the more powerful 9×25mm Mauser round. Like the Beretta, the Danuvia's magazine can be folded forward into a recess in the stock where a plate then slides over it.
The original Danuvia was the 39M: it was redesigned in 1943 as the 43M. This, the most common version, had a shortened barrel and was provided with a forward-angled magazine. It had a folding metal buttstock and wood forestock fitted with a pistol grip. The Danuvia featured a patented two-part delayed blowback bolt. The fire selector switch is a circular cap on the rear of the receiver and is rotated to one of three settings: E (Egyes)(semiautomatic fire), S(Sorozat) (full automatic), or Z (Zárt)(the safety setting). The ejection port and cocking handle are on the right side of the receiver. It had a ramp-type rear sight above the ejection port and a post foresight at end of the barrel.
The gun was well-liked by troops it was issued to; it reportedly functioned well in the sub-zero, muddy conditions on the Eastern Front. The only difficulty was the availability of 9×25mm Mauser ammunition. It was used by the Hungarian army, military police and police forces and stayed in service until the early 1950s when it was gradually replaced by the PPSh-41 and the Kucher K1.
Mike Irwin
Staff
That would be the Bittner lever action pistol.
It looks like a semi-automatic, and has an outline similar to the early Bergmans from the same time period, but its operation was totally different with the ring trigger guard being used to operate the action.
The Bittner and the Bergman did, however, share one common trait -- a use of Mannlicher-type enbloc clips, 2 of the few pistols to incorporate such an arrangement.
It looks like a semi-automatic, and has an outline similar to the early Bergmans from the same time period, but its operation was totally different with the ring trigger guard being used to operate the action.
The Bittner and the Bergman did, however, share one common trait -- a use of Mannlicher-type enbloc clips, 2 of the few pistols to incorporate such an arrangement.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Danuvia 43M...
Huh. Don't recall hearing of that one before. But, I did get the Beretta inspiration part right...
Huh. Don't recall hearing of that one before. But, I did get the Beretta inspiration part right...
Mike you did it again 
42 Bittner Repeating Pistol
http://www.horstheld.com/0-Bittner.htm
BITTNER LEVER ACTION PISTOL
Caliber 7.7mm Bittner.
Repeating pistol with 6" octagonal barrel, ramp rear sight graduated to 150 meters.
This stripper-magazine-fed pistol has the housing in front of the action
with checkered wood panels on sides.
The action mechanism is extremely unusual in that the bolt stays fully retracted until the ring trigger is pulled which moves bolt forward stripping a round into the chamber. The ring lever has a slot in the back to allow the trigger contact with shooter's finger which releases when bolt is fully closed.
Less than 500 were made.
42 Bittner Repeating Pistol
http://www.horstheld.com/0-Bittner.htm
BITTNER LEVER ACTION PISTOL
Caliber 7.7mm Bittner.
Repeating pistol with 6" octagonal barrel, ramp rear sight graduated to 150 meters.
This stripper-magazine-fed pistol has the housing in front of the action
with checkered wood panels on sides.
The action mechanism is extremely unusual in that the bolt stays fully retracted until the ring trigger is pulled which moves bolt forward stripping a round into the chamber. The ring lever has a slot in the back to allow the trigger contact with shooter's finger which releases when bolt is fully closed.
Less than 500 were made.
Mike Irwin
Staff
That one I have no clue, but it looks to have the same sort of arrangement that the Bittner has...
I want to say it's a Schuloff, maybe an earlier prototype?
I want to say it's a Schuloff, maybe an earlier prototype?
Mike Irwin
Staff
That's cheating, Maps!
We're seeing who has the biggest VFUGK (Vast Fund of Useless Gun Knowledge)...
We're seeing who has the biggest VFUGK (Vast Fund of Useless Gun Knowledge)...
Mike Irwin
Staff
And regarding the Bittner pistol that Horst Held is selling...
You'd think that an operation like Held's would have better photographs on its site...
Especially for a handgun that they're charging nearly $20,000 for...
You'd think that an operation like Held's would have better photographs on its site...
Especially for a handgun that they're charging nearly $20,000 for...
mapsjanhere
New member
Mike, I admit, with your Schuloff hint it got easy as googling Schuloff Julia shows the picture 
mapsjanhere
New member
Once again you guys are beating my but
55 Passler & Seidl 1887 7.7 x 17R Bittner
https://centerofthewest.org/2014/10/11/guns-of-the-week-ingenious_engineering/
When you look at early invention in the semi-automatic, you get some interesting-looking firearms. The first attempt at the semi-auto pistol was Borchardt’s C93 that attempted to reinvent Maxim’s toggle lock. Around the same time several other inventors were attempting similar yet different designs.
This Passler & Seidl Semi-Automatic Pistol is a rare representation of those guns. In 1887, this firearm was invented by Franz Passler and Ferdinand Seidl in Austria. This early repeater played around with the self-loading features of a semi-auto. The ring trigger could be manipulated forward and backward to load the firearm. The ammunition was loaded into the bottom of the frame. The caliber is 7.7 mm and may be a 7.65mm Borchardt cartridge or an 8mm Bergmann tapered rimless cartridge (two contemporary cartridges of its time).
55 Passler & Seidl 1887 7.7 x 17R Bittner
https://centerofthewest.org/2014/10/11/guns-of-the-week-ingenious_engineering/
When you look at early invention in the semi-automatic, you get some interesting-looking firearms. The first attempt at the semi-auto pistol was Borchardt’s C93 that attempted to reinvent Maxim’s toggle lock. Around the same time several other inventors were attempting similar yet different designs.
This Passler & Seidl Semi-Automatic Pistol is a rare representation of those guns. In 1887, this firearm was invented by Franz Passler and Ferdinand Seidl in Austria. This early repeater played around with the self-loading features of a semi-auto. The ring trigger could be manipulated forward and backward to load the firearm. The ammunition was loaded into the bottom of the frame. The caliber is 7.7 mm and may be a 7.65mm Borchardt cartridge or an 8mm Bergmann tapered rimless cartridge (two contemporary cartridges of its time).