What The Heck Is This?

[redlantrn]

At the request of mnw42, and to reduce any clutter I have created, I will post all of my pics/questions in this thread of any guns from my collection:
Heres the first:

This rifle has a stamp on the stock with the above name and 1936 in a circular pattern. Only visible numbers are F7071, behind front sight. Bayonette sharp as a pin. missing magazine. R E Terni is also behind front sight, with a crown above it. Oh there is an odd combination of numbers on right side of barrel 36-XIV. Any estimate as far as value?
Thanks!

 

[PetahW]

It's a sporterized/chopped Italian Army Terni rifle - only been dropped once (when the owner surrendered) .

IIRC, the caliber/cartridge should be one of the small, rimmed, European 6.5's (6.5 Caracano ?).

It's an Italian rip-off of an 1891 Mauser design.

.

 

[Jim Watson]

Gotta disagree with PetaW
.
The illustrated rifle is an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano Model 38 carbine in Italian WW II army issue configuration, complete with folding bayonet. Caliber 6.5x52 Carcano.

36-XIV is the date code, 1936, the 14th year of Mussolini's regime.

It is not "missing magazine", the magazine is integral with the trigger guard but has to be loaded from the top with six rounds at a time in en-bloc clips.
The clips fall out the bottom when empty. Clips are available here and there.

Design is basically Mannlicher (a competitor of Mauser) with some Italian tweaks. Not a great gun, but not as bad as commonly reported.

 

[redlantrn]

Thanks Jim. would you have a ballpark estimate as far as value? Oh, and not to get too O/T, but isn't this the same gun Oswald used to kill JFK?

 

[Tom2]

I have seen them for 150-250 at gunshows depending on condition and the seller. As the clips and ammo are not easy to aquire, but not impossible, there is less interest in them as compared to some of the more common surps around right now, that you can get ammo for. I think the Germans converted some of the Italian rifles to 8MM so they could interchange ammo with them but I am not sure which models of the Italian rifles were done so. ANd I also think the 8MM conversions might not be as safe as original configuration either. Well not saying there is no interest in them. As collectables they have their place but folks looking for shooters generally try something else unless very serious. I think historically the ww2 Italian rifles have not brought alot of money. Sort of like the Japanese rifles were but interest in those has finally driven up prices. As well as a bit more new ammo available. Not exactly the same rifle that LHO used but he got it because it was real cheap at the time. Your little carbine is a somewhat different configuration I believe. Might be a bear to shoot being short like that, sort of like the short MN rifles are more intense to shoot than the long rifles.

 

[redlantrn]

Gun #2 "Fabrica Dearmas Oviedo"

Included on top of breech is the date 1923. SN# 5243. From what I have found, I believe it is a 7mm chambering.Any idea on approximate value?
Thanks

 

[James K]

It is a Spanish Model 1916 short rifle. The action is the same as the Model 1893 rifle. Oviedo was the site of one of the two Spanish government rifle factories. It is in Asturias in northern Spain. The other factory was at La Coruna in the northwest, on the Atlantic.

Unless altered, the caliber would be 7mm or 7x57, which we call the 7mm Mauser.

Jim

 

[mnw42]

gun #1

Gun one is a Carcano Calvary Carbine (Moschetto Cavalleria). The folding bayonet is the give away. The Carcano uses 6 rd. en-bloc clips that drop out of the bottom of the magazine when the last round is chambered. It is probably chambered in 6.5x52mm. It may also be 7.53mm, though that is unlikely.

The Italians made a few different carbine versions of the M1891. Yours is an earlier version with the adjustable rear sight. Later ones had a fixed rear sight like the M38 TS (Oswald used one). They also made carbines from cut down long rifles. Unfortunately, the majority of long rifles had gain twist rifling and the cut-down carbines don't have enough twist to stabilize the bullet. Your rifle is probably purposes built and will shoot just fine. Latter rifles with standard rifling and early rifles with unmolested barrels shoot pretty good.

The battle zero is 300m so keep that in mind. Hornady and Norma make ammo for it with the proper bullet size (.268"). Numrich has the clips which you will need if you want to shoot it. The 6.5mm is a very pleasant cartridge to shoot.


More info can be found here....http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/





The

 

[redlantrn]

Gun #3

Ok, this one might be a little tricky, as there is no english writing anywhere, withthe exception of the SN#1817337. There is a marking that looks like a daisy at the base of the barrel,and some chinese? engraving. Hope the pic helps. Any input on calibre,approx age,value?
Thanks

 

[mnw42]

It's an Arisaka of some sort.

 

[Mike Irwin]

You need to take some clearer photographs of that particular rifle.

Better lighting.

Concentrate on good, CLEAR photographs of the markings on the breech, the bolt handle, and the muzzle area.

It's impossible to tell right now whether it's a chopped up after war conversion, or whether you have a real gem.

 

[redlantrn]

Gun 3 pics

Thanks for the tips Mike. I have taken a few more pics. Even with the flash off, its difficult to get a good shot of the breech. Hope these help.

 

[James K]

It is a Japanese Type 38 rifle, pretty well sporterized, ruining it for collectors. Too bad as the chrysanthemum (symbol of the Japanese emperor) appears to be intact, which would have made it more valuable to collectors. The presence of the "mum" crest indicates the rifle was captured in combat; rifles surrendered from depots after the war have the crest ground off. The U.S. allowed the crest to be ground so the emperor's symbol would not be disgraced; at the time, we needed his cooperation in keeping Japan under control.

The first symbol should be three horizontal lines which is 3 and then a symbol that looks like reversed parens )( which is 8, then a third symbol that means "Type" or "Model". So it reads "38 Type". If the caliber is unaltered, it is 6.5x50 or 6.5 Japanese.

The slots in the receiver were for a dust cover that slid back and forth with the bolt. They are often missing; reportedly Japanese soldiers themselves discarded them because they rattled.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

Crap.

Yep, that's exactly what it is.

Someone turned a Type 38 into a Mannlicher style carbine.

Supposedly there were some pre-Type 38 Mannlicher-type cavalry carbines made (based on the Type 30? I can't remember right now), but never taken into standard service.

 

[redlantrn]

Gun #4

Thanks guys. Heres #4. Receiver Says U.S. Model of 1917 Winchester. A little more straightforward. than last gun. From my research I believe it's an Enfield 30-06. Serial #437946
has it been sporterized?/value thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Jim Watson]

Yup, US model of 1917 .30-06, very many issued in WW I.
Looks GI to me, except for the strap-on cheek pad.
I can't tell the type of finish or condition, but if it is in good shape and especially if it is blue, it has some collector value, I won't guess the dollars.

 

[Chipperman]

The 1917 appears to be unmolested as far as is visible from that pic. Take off that pad, though. Blech!

IMO, the 1917 is a very underappreciated rifle. What is the date on top of barrel behind the front sight?

The reciever is 1918, so if the barrel is 1918-1919, it's going to be more valuable.
The Winchester make is more valued than Eddystone as well, b/c fewer were made.

 

[redlantrn]

Thanks for the info Chipperman.
Date on barrel is 1918 (would have never thought to look there for the date). Cheek pad is pretty ugly.Wasn't sure if I should leave it on or not. Some of the rubber "butt protectors" on some of these guns were so dry rotted, they broke into a million pieces when I took them off.

 

[redlantrn]

Gun #5

While this particular gun may not have any monetary value, it has sentimental value as my grandfather (who is still alive) bought this gun at Sears in 1936 when he was 14 years old. He still talks about it as if he bought it yesterday, and it will stay in the family. It is a Ranger model 101-14 in 22 cal. Just thought I would post a pic of it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sears didn't own a gun factory, this one was made for them by Stevens.