What is the L&P forum for?

[Leif]

However, the past year or so has seen TFL links at a number of fantasy gamer boards. This has attracted an enormous number of people who's interest in firearms is related only to make-believe lives.

Ah, I had not realized such linking took place, since I do not frequent fantasy-gaming boards or follow what happens with that world.

dev_null, I can't say I blame him for being upset, if indeed he is. If I operated a web board, which I don't (nor have any desire to), I'd be upset if people came into it and trashed it with posts that were contrary to the mission or the posted rules of the site. There has been some of this of late, hence the whole discussion. The problem is, that A) the topics in question are bound to elicit strong emotions, and B) that some who post about those topics absolutely refuse to reign in their strong emotions and try to debate and discuss those topics in a rational, somewhat objective manner.

If an influx of people who lack the maturity to discuss issues in an adult, productive manner has occured, maybe a thinning of the ranks is in order. I'm not sure creating a purgatory into which to send those people is the right solution, but frankly I know of no other solution than that currently implemented, i.e., monitoring the threads and acting when necessary.

Why are you looking at me? Stop, you're making me nervous!

 

[Rich Lucibella]

like it's really bugging you

Thanks for noticing, dev. It is. I've provided fair warning here that I intend to do something about it. If I've misstepped by giving y'all a bit of insight into my reasoning and plans, well, sometimes we're just damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Rich

 

[Scott Conklin]

And your last comment, 2A, implying that Rich maintains this board out of ego, is so frankly insulting that you're about to find out how fair he actually is. Most people would just ban you for talking to their host that way, and no one would care.

One of the big problems with forums: People read what they want to see. It wasn't a comment on Rich's ego, it was another comment on his initial statement that I shouldn't feel it's all about me and my reply that ego has always been an issue for me. Read, then rant, please.

What's insulting, Handy, is your characterization of people who disagree as belonging in/needing a sewer since they are "undesireable". And I don't think you get to answer for Rich on that subject nor do I think he'd have characterized it in such a way.

Rich, One person can not create a forum, you know this. Having bandwidth and a server does not a forum make. You know this too. So exactly what is it you want in the phrase "step up"? You can create the location, I can pretend to be an Admin, even find some helpers, but if the people who bother you here don't want to come over then what? Will you ban them all? No guarantee where they'll go then. Hell, they may just re-register here.

But if it'll make you happy then fine, I'll babysit an empty piece of software until you get bored with it and take it down. Far be it from me to not accept a challenge, I just don't see the point. It's not magically going to have the result you want, if it has any result at all and like I said, based on the reaction here, I'd say a big fat ZERO is what you're gonna get.

 

[Richard Hanson]

Handy started this thread in a sincere and civil manner and I was quite interested in the administrative response to his questions because I was a participant in the thread that gave rise to the issues Handy is trying to resolve. I now understand that certain contentious issues that might engender some animosity between members, or reflect poorly on TFL itself, are off limits. As I enjoy argument or providing a rational defense, an apology, for a position I hold to be true, pros apologia, the more contentious issues are often of greater interest, but this forum is not my house and I have no desire to urinate on another man's property. I was somewhat embarrassed to find that I had, even if only by association but I suspect somewhat more directly, already stepped over the line.

A man either does or does not respect the private property of others and I have no doubt as to what kind of man I desire to be.

Best Regards,
Richard


P.S. At the risk of appearing foolish, what exactly is a "Twinkie" as used in the context of this thread?

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Why is 2nd arguing something that Rich already said wasn't going to fly, and why has he decided to hijack this tread from Handy?"

My question exactly.

If a non-issue is so ****ing traumatic, and the trauma is made untenable by all of the other gripes, either take up Rich's offer, or find a site that will allow you to act in any manner that you wish.

Didn't your Mom ever tell you that it's bad form to go to a party and bitch at the host because you don't like the china pattern?

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Rich, One person can not create a forum, you know this. Having bandwidth and a server does not a forum make. You know this too.
[snip]
But if it'll make you happy then fine, I'll babysit an empty piece of software until you get bored with it and take it down.

That's not stepping up 2nd; it's stepping sideways. Stepping up is committing to the project; making it your own; planning it and carrying thru. Stepping up requires taking a risk; not hand-wringing about "what if nobody comes?", all the while, tsk-tsk'ing about the shortfalls of TFL.

OK, if you're uncertain what the first step is, let me help you. Choose a domain name for your new Board. I'll register it and purchase the software. tyme will install it. We'll even put a sticky up in all forums announcing it, if you'd like.

All you'll have to do is organize the forum structure, rules and staff. After all, you have pointed out (several times) the dissatisfaction expressed to you by TFL Members with the way the board is run; it was you who alluded to the fact that a group of you had thought about starting a new Board but decided that it was "just too hard".

I've just made it easy for you. You apparently already have a core group you're in touch with. That's a great start. Step up, son. No more hedging.

Richard-
No apologies needed. These off limit topics are not formally listed in the Policies so you couldn't know. We try to close those threads without recrimination; when we get heavy handed in closing same, that's a failure on our part. Just my opinion.

A "twinkie"? A child who demands to be heard in serious adult debate; an adult who acts like a child; a poser; a fop. Take your pick.
Rich

 

[Scott Conklin]

Actually as was pointed out to me by others, Rich hijacked the thread with his first post. Meanwhile, as I said, we aren't arguing about that issue anymore anyway and haven't been for a while unless discussing Rich's perceived mood/attitude/agenda whatever is considered the same subject. Nothing traumatic about it and nobody (except Rich) really said anything about finding another site or being fed up with this one. So, if the discussion is so "expletive" traumatic why participate(BTW, isn't hiding expletives like that behind asterisks and other creative means also unacceptable here and so shouldn't you be looking for some place new, too? That's a joke...humor...ah never mind).

 

[Scott Conklin]

If your goal is another forum why not just step up yourself and say so and choose those you want to run it? It's become obvious here that that IS your agenda, so why sidle around it? And why do it this way? Pick your crew, of which I am certain I would never have been one, and go for it. Why the drama and why the circituitous route? As for me, it's not my project and not my idea so why the importance of me committing? It makes no sense and we both know I am not high on your list of favorites. Hoping for failure? Nah, I doubt that... But, noting that there doesn't seem to be a demand for your idea(or mine when we talked about it) and that it's likely a flop before it even gets started isn't hand-wringing. It's just saying that the issue you seem to see and the exodus you appear to imagine may well not exist. You might consider I might be right before you waste your time and mine...

You know my email and I'm sure you can send a PM even though you won't recieve them, so maybe it's time you tell me what's really on your mind since you have pretty well made this all about you and me at this point. Now, I am 2 hours late for the office so you'll probably be on your own till 5'ish. Enjoy.

Note: I've pointed out that people aren't always happy. MUST you mischaracterize everything that is said to you?

Note: I clearly said(no allusion involved) that I had talked with some others about doing something a little different but that people are creatures of habit and creating something from thin air wouldn't, probably, amount to much. Again, must you mischaracterize what is said?

Note: I'd have to go back and re-read all this but who is tsk-tsking the shortfalls of TFL? Seems the initial question was what the puprose of L&P was and then what your agenda/mood is all about? I don't think there's been much griping about the site at all here(but maybe I missed it or maybe I have come across differently than intended).

 

[Rich Lucibella]

If your goal is another forum why not just step up yourself and say so and choose those you want to run it? It's become obvious here that that IS your agenda, so why sidle around it?

Mustn't answer a fair challenge with a challenge already met. I already have stepped up. It's called TFL. You don't like the way it's run. In fact, it was you who gave me the idea for a new Forum. It was you who claimed you and some others had discussed it. I'm handing it to you and you're telling me you want me to run that one, too? You introduced a "new forum" into this conversation, not I. I've called you on it and you've spent every post since distancing yourself from that challenge as quickly as possible.

You're dismissed now, 2nd. I think we understand that which you demand....simply to be given to. Well, I'm sorry. My breast is incapable of giving milk.
Rich

 

[sterno]

Mmmmm, Twinkies and Milk....

Sorry...Focus, focus...

 

[HangFire83]

Thanks Rich and all staff, for all your devotion to TFL. I have learned a lot and laughed a lot and even gotten into a "taboo" topic debate in which I got scolded. I admit mistakes when I make 'em and try not to do it again so that I may remain on TFL and benefit from it's database. Thanks again and I hope TFL stays around after this 26+ hour debate ends.

I'll also add that many good points have been brought up in this debate, however, it is Rich's house and if you don't like the way he is running things you don't have to come back. It is free to be here so you won't be out any money if you leave.

I'll also second that twinkies and milk sterno!!!

 

[Redworm]

How can you have a forum without rules? Its like a bar without a bouncer.....

oh there are plenty out there

 

[Eghad]

Note: I've pointed out that people aren't always happy. MUST you mischaracterize everything that is said to you?

If I am not happy with a TV Program I change the channel. I dont own the broadcasting company that puts out the programming but I can choose not to watch the programming.

God Bless Rich and the moderators, I know I wouldnt want the job on the boards they have.

I dont think Rich has mischaracterized anything to be fair to him. Since this a firearms board, I found it amazing that he has a legal and political forum that isnt limited to only political and legal items that concern the 2nd Amendment. He has been consistent about what he wants on the board. He did offer you your own board, which having dealt with him he would have made happen. Might be a good time to put away that shovel and stop digging.

 

[Ben Swenson]

Very generous offer, Rich.

One thing I've always liked about you is that you put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Scott Conklin]

Mustn't answer a fair challenge with a challenge already met. I already have stepped up. It's called TFL. You don't like the way it's run.

If I found it that objectionable I'd have simple left, wouldn't I? Or is questioning YOUR motivations the same as dissing everything about TFL?

In fact, it was you who gave me the idea for a new Forum. It was you who claimed you and some others had discussed it.

And you know what? I am willing to bet I and they are not the only ones to have had such a discussion. I just happen to be the one that mentioned it in a long discussion...

I'm handing it to you and you're telling me you want me to run that one, too?

No, if that's the case then I'm telling you to read all of what I said, specifically that we came to the conclusion it problably wouldn't fly. So if that was the conclusion, as was noted in the same sentence you claim to have gotten the idea from now, why would it suddenly change? I asked you, specifically and noted the lack of apparent interest(maybe I am wrong) and you haven't said a peep in reply.

You introduced a "new forum" into this conversation, not I. I've called you on it and you've spent every post since distancing yourself from that challenge as quickly as possible.

Again, I noted it in passing and in the same breath said it (probably) wouldn't work. Since then you've been fixated on it without offering any reason why it will(other than the mostly inactive "37000 members" whose blessing you arbitrarily heaped upon your idea). But I did not, in fact, distance myself from it...

You're dismissed now, 2nd. I think we understand that which you demand....simply to be given to. Well, I'm sorry. My breast is incapable of giving milk.

Avoiding all the obvious boob jokes that present themselves, is this how you now get out of it? I told you to go ahead and contact me and now you duck for cover? Pony up, Bud, or you're the one dismissed and I'll go find my own 2%, thank you mery vuch.

I seriously DO have to get to the office though and there's nothing I can do about that... And BTW, I am impressed with how you managed to change the entire focus here. Pretty slick.

EDIT: It's six hours later. I've contacted people within this forum and beyond it about staffing and people I've worked with before about design and hosting and most seem at least vaguely interested. Still waiting for some contact from Rich, but maybe he's been stuck at the office, too...? Just so there is no confusion, the email addy is STILL sconklin@ncci.net, just as it was 6 years ago when i registered. Oh, ICQ is 8-792-636 if that helps...

 

[Rich Lucibella]

It's six hours later. I've contacted people within this forum and beyond it about staffing and people I've worked with before about design and hosting and most seem at least vaguely interested. Still waiting for some contact from Rich, but maybe he's been stuck at the office, too...?

Just saw your edit, 2nd.
I'm pleased you're moving this forward. Another member contacted me today and indicated an interest. I'll ask him to contact you direct.

Don't know why you're waiting for contact from me??? I haven't received any emails from you. We just changed mail servers and the filtering is pretty stringent. If you're not getting thru to me, please post here and I'll look into it.

I apologize if you felt I was offering an empty promise. I believe a second forum will certainly work, if you and yours do. Despite your comments about this forum's membership being largely "dormant", it has still seen 37k+ registrations. Comparing registration numbers on other boards, which also have like percentages of "dormant" members, that 37K constitutes probably one of the 10 largest shooter pools one might draw from.

That ain't hay we're offering. It's called a Ready Made Forum.

Let me know when y'all are ready and we'll move forward on domain name, VB license and web hosting.
Rich

 

[Glock 31]

I got about as far as page 5 before it all started repeating the same stuff over and over.

Rich runs the site, simple as that. He has every right to demand that we keep our conversations civil, keep profanity out of it, use proper grammar and spelling, or even that we agree with everything that he says. If his tone of writing, or his attitude has changed over the past few months, (I don't know since I don't interact with him very much) it's his right. He's probably tired of the same old crap no matter how many sticky threads are posted.

Threads about controversial topics are always fun to participate in. Until some pastry product screws it up for all involved, which even I have noticed is rather common. And I don't read all the threads that get started. While this is unfortunate, and going to continue until registration is adapted a little differently to drive the point of civility and maturity home, it is still to be expected that one person can and will mess things up. The mods have already been more than lenient than they should have been in sending pm's and email as warnings. I've gotten one or two in my time here, and I always felt like wiping the sweat off my forehead for risking getting kicked off of here. I've even felt wary of posting on some topics because of not being sure if I would be kicked simply for my opinion. But if that was to happen, that's mine and everyone else's tough luck.

We all are here at the discretion of staff. This point makes any argument made so far null and void. Be it handles or maturity. If anyone has a problem with this, The Firearms Forum may be what you are looking for. They are a little less restrictive in topic subjects and guidelines. And they have the same registration procedures as TFL, so your not giving or gaining anything.

 

[Real Gun]

Correct me if I missed it, but I couldn't find any special rules or guidelines for the L&P forum. All I saw was that posts needed to relate to firearms. What that leaves is that the L&P forum would be conducted based upon knowledge of its tradition or moderated on an arbitrary basis. That's not good IMHO.

What might be better is to have yet another subforum where L&P culls can be moved rather than closed or deleted and which includes a sticky that states the special guidelines. To me, that should still be a requirement for topics that would somehow be of particular interest to gun owners or discussed in a special way among those who had gun ownership in common. That requires a judgment call the authority for which everyone must concede.

A point that should be strongly made is that the forum is not a base just for those who resist authority and are politically anarchist or libertarian. There will be rules, and someone will enforce them. Accept that or leave.

I do think its harmful for moderators to be too much in evidence. Rather than harass discussions, they should be clear on rules, state what they are, and be disciplined and quite predictable in their enforcement to the best of their ability.

One tough one on this and other forums is that clear exceptions are made when one or more mods happen to be interested in the topic. That causes the whole system to break down in my opinion and should be carefully examined.

Lastly , I think it is essential for mods to talk to each other and be accountable to each other, collectively defining the personality of the forum. No loose cannons.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I'd like to ask

If and when it is determined to eradicate a user from the forum, do you simply stop them from posting?
Do you show them suspended or eradicated, if you brought up their name would it show they were terminated or slaped on the wrist?

I have seen on some forum's they will tell you the person is on a vacation, or gone bye bye. How do you handle it here? I really have not paid much attention to this, regarding this forum.

Since it seems a certain group are unhappy and causing the topic to be discussed more and more. Is the tail wagging the dog?
Not good. Lots of other places to post if you are that unhappy. IMHO

HQ

 

[TheBluesMan]

...I couldn't find any special rules or guidelines for the L&P forum.

There are no special rules for L&P, the guidelines are in the forum description. When threads are posted that center on religion, sexual preference, abortion, etc. they are closed. That's how we enforce rule #5 - not usually by banning people, but only by closing or removing their thread. A word to the wise is sufficient.

All I saw was that posts needed to relate to firearms.

Where exactly did you see that as it relates to L&P?

What might be better is to have yet another subforum where L&P culls can be moved rather than closed or deleted...

Why would we want to keep posts that don't meet TFL's standards on our servers?

I have seen on some forum's they will tell you the person is on a vacation, or gone bye bye. How do you handle it here?

We keep private business private around here. Always have, always will.

Lots of other places to post if you are that unhappy. IMHO

I agree.

-Dave