What is the L&P forum for?

Eghad-

I think I'm gonna have to keep repeating one statement until this thread gets back on track.

This is not about handles.

Rich, i read most of what you post as it relates to this board [ie = yours as you keep pointing out] noting [sadly] how your attitude has gone south over the last few months.
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Charlie-
I continue to use the first person so as to draw heat from my Staff Colleagues to myself. They didn't start this cleanup, I did. They don't take the responsibility or the heat for it; I do. How would you like me to take that responsibility without using with words "me" and "I"? That's not rhetorical...it's an honest question.

What did you expect when you started this place? Have your goals changed along the way as to the mission statement and or what you perceive as the clientèle should live up to your "expectations" as it were.
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When we started, Charlie? Heck, let's look at three years after we started: 2001, when you joined. The language, the kiddie bravado, the immaturity? That was NEVER what TFL offered. Go and pull up some of those threads in 2000-2001 and compare 'em to what you see here today. It was a Resource, Charlie.

With the camaraderie and fun drained away, what's left?
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Who ever said we couldn't have "camaraderie"...or that we didn't?
Rich
 
As a solution, lemme suggest something. If I get any takers, we'll start a new thread.

How about we develop a whole new website Forum, where those who don't agree with TFL Policies can go to kick back in a place of their own making? it'll start out with a couple or 10,000 Members. We can do with this what we did for THR, but this won't be a Sister Forum like THR. It'll have no affiliation.

Here's what we'll provide:
The VB license, server and bandwidth for two years. That way, nobody gets left out "in the cold" when Staff here takes actions that "trample your rights"? Basically a schism, where those who disagree with TFL Policies can go and be welcomed. Membership will be mutually exclusive....those who go, go with our blessing.

I challenge the Members here to Volunteer to Staff that Forum. For those who are so unhappy with our "controls", now's your chance. Don't talk to us about "Well, if there was a better Forum, I'd join". Step up to Staff it.

Rich
 
I like it here,always have. I have no problem with the moderation. In fact I have seen a few times when mods have closed then reopened threads on reexamination of THEIR position. They do a hell of a job. I have been a member of other forums which went the way of the dodo because of peoples inability to maintain civility, or reason in the debate. It sucks when it happens. I would hate for Rich to knock this in the head because some cant act right. I don't type well and sometimes post tired and so sometimes dont spell or punctuate very well, I have never heard any crap about it. I have never had a mod pm me over my comments, or say anything publicly. I am generally considered by most who know me to be a hotheaded, far right, gun-totin, loud-mouthed lunatic, however, I am usually able to keep my cool and just debate or discuss a topic rationally. Bottom line is, it aint our yard. We asked to come in and play. So We need to follow the rules set down, and not get pissy when the OWNER says cool it.
Remember: Extremism in defence of liberty is no vice, And moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
THATS MORE WORDS THAN I SPOKE SINCE I KNOWED YA!
ERIC
 
Hew boy! - Step back and take a breath!

I've watched this... um... "dialogue" since Handy first posted his very valid questions. I even started a reply, but was interrupted by work for a couple of hours. When I came back, my reply had become nonsensical and irrelevant.

Getting back to the original post for a moment, Handy, I would like to think that the L&P forum would be a place where we can all discuss many of the issues that we see on an almost day-to-day basis.

Take the Illegal Alien issue. For a while there, we had threads popping up all over this forum. All related in one form or another to the "problem" and the "solution." It was like a neighbor that has had a large Bar-B-Que and had tossed one of his sacks of garbage over the fence into my yard. I pretty much took it upon myself to put a halt to it.

The issue is still with us, but we are not inundated with numerous posts that do nothing but talk trash. Did I make some mistakes in the moderation of those? Of course I did! I'd be foolish to say otherwise.

But it illustrates a direction for L&P, no?

Look at the heat we took when we decided that we expected people to post in correct English. That was a direction for the entire board, yes?

Over the last year, we've had several things going on. The cop-bashing got way out of hand. We have been inundated with the CounterStrike Kiddies, or at least, with what passes for such. Intelligent conversation, discussion and debate became a circus... It still is. Language that used to be polite and civil, if not, it was at least well disguised, have become the exception, instead of the norm it once was.

So changes have been and are being made. Hopefully for the better. Wouldn't it be good for TFL to regain that claim to be The Firearms Resource, that we once were? We aren't that today.

Our world was in a state of change, when we went silent that December. Remember? I wasn't a moderator then, so I wasn't privy to the reasoning. I do know that when we came back online, I was glad. Thrilled, actually.

In the intervening years, I grew politically active. I learned more about firearms and firearm laws than I thought possible. I thought I had something (finally) to contribute back to the place that started me on this road.

Handy asked about directions. Rich answered, but his answer went beyond just the question asked. And for that, he has taken some abuse from the members at large... Hell, some of you began to argue amongst yourselves... Kinda like "old home week."

As an aside, if this doesn't get you to understand why the circuit courts in general and the Supreme Court in particular decide things on a very, very narrow basis, then I don't know what will!

L&P encompasses an awful lot of things Handy. But flippant comments and remarks and veiled threats or insults aren't part of it. Can we agree on that? Those who aren't adult enough to hold an adult conversation need to start looking for another board or stay the heck out of L&P.

As far as issues dealing with abortion, religion and sexuality are concerned, I haven't seen a board that can reasonably debate such, and I've been around since the days of dial-up BBS, listservs, fidonet and usenet. There was never a more contentious (and divisive) set of issues than the aforementioned.

So the best I can answer your questions Handy, is that we are trying to get back to what we once were. By fits and starts, by hook or crook. And maybe our vision of what once was is jaded. But there you are, nonetheless.
 
How about we develop a whole new website Forum, where those who don't agree with TFL Policies can go to kick back in a place of their own making?
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How can you have a forum without rules? Its like a bar without a bouncer.....

As much as I miss a place where I can exchange recipes for chicken soup, I wouldnt leave to find one. Nor would I want to be in a place where some of the stuff I see closed off here would run wild.

WildgenerousofferbythewayAlaska
 
How can you have a forum without rules? Its like a bar without a bouncer.....
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Exactly Wild! And I'm dying to see some that take the bait to become staff on such a forum pull out each and every hair! :D .

Anti, outstanding post!
 
I was kind of waiting for someone else to say, or at least touch on, what I have been thinking. 12-34 finally did. Whether you realize it or not you come across much, much different than you did even fairly recently. That bothers me more than some I suspect because I have seen this odd change in a lot of board Admins lately. Leaves me kind of baffled. Maybe it's something in the water. Anyway, I knew it wasn't just me but good to see it out here from someone else...

Anyway, I CHOOSE(present tense of chose, because I reconfirm this choice everytime I log in here) to partake of this service. That does not mean I choose to never disagree with you or question what you do or how you act. As far as I know there's no rule in the ToS to that effect, either. If you'd like to add it then I will choose to not partake any more because that's no longer a Forum, it's a proto-religion.

You have no idea what I have chosen to do in the past, nor what I am currently affiliated with. I have had failed boards and successful ones. Been Admin, Mod, Mega-Mod, etc on big and small. I've been quoted here under a nom de plume or two of mine over the years. So, why would you assume I have never chosen to build a better mousetrap simply because I choose to play in yours? Are those mutually exclusive?

Pursue it? Fine, but let's note my identity is not hidden. My name is in my Sig and one of my current projects, where my name can be gleaned as well as several radio interviews, is there as well. I think I mentioned that before so I'll just assume the "your" is referring to people in general(I remember the tongue lashing I got in an Illegals thread for not choosing my words perfectly...).

Extraordinary attitude? How so? Not a one of your points is relevant to what I said. You defined the rules, I choose to post under them. If you had elected to change them, after the fact, that forces everyone to make another choice. A choice that might be more difficult considering the time and effort already invested in staking out positions and building friendships and knowledge that would not be considerations had such been the rule from day one. Has nothing to do with any point you listed in your apparent effort to define this down to what you see as "the entire issue".

I would hope that's enough of an answer, but I'll give you a bit more: After the fact your persona here turned into someone I don't even recognize any more. If it were just me I'd let you write that off as my thinking it's all about me, but it's not. OTOH, bud, it IS your board and it's pretty big and as such I don't have to argue with you. I can just avoid you like I avoid certain others, staff and guests, around here.

As for your challenge, step up and tell us honestly: Is this where you have been heading all along with this? Is this the motive behind the apparent mood swing? And if so, why? Simply to better be able to define the type/tone of posting done here on TFL? Or to deliberately spawn yet another board, this one with a rougher edge as THR supposedly has a more refined one? The better to cover all the bases and world-views without spreading yourself too thin or having your name linked to something that might go wrong? If so I have to admit it not only makes sense and answers a lot of questions but several of us had thought of it and duscussed something similar, choosing to not try only because of how difficult it is to establish any new board of size from an existing one without the existing board's blessing. People are creatures of habit, afterall(usually unfortunately but not necessaqrily in this case).

That may or may not be an acceptance of your challenge... Time will tell.
 
2nd-
As for your challenge, step up and tell us honestly: Is this where you have been heading all along with this?
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Unlike some here, I try to answer questions directly. The answer is , No this was not where I was heading. But it seems like a pretty good idea now. ;)

The better to cover all the bases and world-views without spreading yourself too thin or having your name linked to something that might go wrong?
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This may be one of the most amusing attacks it's ever been my pleasure to dismiss. Afraid of being "linked to something that might go wrong"? How can I be afraid, guy? Everything I do is in the light of day; with my own imprimatur attached. Stupid me, I know. :rolleyes:

If so I have to admit it not only makes sense and answers a lot of questions but several of us had thought of it and duscussed something similar, choosing to not try only because of how difficult it is to establish any new board of size from an existing one without the existing board's blessing.
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Check and Mate, as to my challenge. You now have a board of 37,000 offering you its blessing, plus all expenses paid for the next 24 months. Is it time to stop "talking about it" yet, or is the talking (and complaining) just a bit more comfortable.
STEP UP, DUDE. Stop kvetching about my "mood swings" and your accomplishments and your stalking woes; Time to make a public statement. Step Up and put your time where your words are, lest some accuse you of being a just another note in the cacophony of "Poor Me's".

That may or may not be an acceptance of your challenge... Time will tell.
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Time will tell what? Time will tell that you'd rather stay here and have the Staff work according to your vision of TFL? Time for everyone to forget that you sidled by an offer for a PrePaid Instant Audience, so long as you agree to keep them off the streets?

You didn't answer my last question, 2nd. Answer THIS one: "Time will tell"....what, exactly?
Rich
 
I understand what your saying Rich that there are specific areas you do not want to discuss religion, homesexuality, ect. because of the emotional potential of the discussion. That you are unhappy with some posters.

Thats fine and I have no problem with it since you are the provider for the messageboard. If you chose to lock every thread down I wouldnt have a gripe with it since you are providing this service. I would just head on to to other boards as is my choice.

I just didnt understand the comments on using real names. It was uncalled for in my opinion. Even if we used our names I dont think it would improve anything on the board. The only way to do that is to cull out those folks you think are undesirable. You and the moderators need to figure that out.
 
Rich,
Your responses thus far skirt the issue I've raised. The 'big 3' are no more or less divisive/contentious than politics in general and are central to the political divisions in our country.
So when the Congress is arguing immigration reform it's fair game, but not when they're discussing gay marriage? It's arbitrary and capricious.
Yes, it's your forum and yes you can set the rules to be whatever the heck you want them to be. Not the point.
We have already demonstrated our capacity to discuss these issues in a civil and rational manner (which you noted), yet you still insisted on locking them down.
All I'm sayin' is taboo topics don't kill threads, people do. So why don't you punish the offenders instead of the entire community? Why don't you wait until the thread goes south before killing it? You know, handle them like any other thread?
Otherwise, why not just limit all discussion in this forum to strictly firearms-related topics?
 
I'm not sure how helpful this observation may be, but it seems, to me at least, that much of the discussion in L&P centers on issues of civil liberties generally (as opposed to other areas or topics within law and politics), since gun rights are included within the category of civil liberty and those who tend to discuss them tend to concentrate on civil liberties issues and activities related to them.

However, the 'big three', i.e. the topics that are taboo, are related intimitely to the debates and wranglings about civil liberties within this country's current legal and political landscape, so to a certain degree, it is inevitable that people will introduce, and continue to introduce, them into conversation.

Like I said, that probably isn't too helpful of a musing. I guess what I mean to say is that hoping that members will self-police and avoid those topics entirely on their own might be wishful thinking, especially with newer members unfamiliar with the taboo. To steer away from those will require intervention, and that will always come across as heavy-handed to some, regardless of whether or not it was warranted and/or fair.

Some people are just not going to be happy regardless of the actions taken by the Staff.
 
I didn't take the opportunity to say it before, but will now:
TFL is an excellent board. It offers a breadth of topics and a level of decorum that makes a very wide range of discussion possible without it being a free for all. Several other popular boards only seem to encourage junk posts, resulting in unreadably long threads of no content.

For offering a top notch place to post: Thank you Rich and Staff.


This thread was started just to get a couple of words of clarification - not start what this has become. I'm frankly surprised how angry some of you are about Rich's posting personality and other minutia.

As to the actual topic of the thread - I can understand why some topics are taboo. Discussing gays is a fasttrack to exposing the worst qualities in otherwise fair and sensible people - I guess we really don't need to reveal those prejudiced underbellies. It ultimately undermines the rest of the board. Along this line, perhaps immigration, which so often devolves into words like "wetback", should join abortion, religion and homosexuality as a topic that is better left for another venue. As we see on all the forum's, people are too unable to seperate the issue from the people involved.


Since we're talking about cleaning up the forum, I don't think that is completely the Staff's job. Everyone here has the ability to set the tone. Of course, the recent habit of newer posters to actually attack senior members due to post count kind of makes this a tall order - it doesn't seem that many new members feel that the board's history and traditions mean anything.



My suggestion would be to expand the staff by creating some "Moderator at large" positions, then filling them with some of the sensible people that post here with some frequency. They wouldn't even have to have admin powers - just the ability to influence and warn might have a positive affect in setting the tone of the board. Many of the current staff have too many things to do to be posting as often as they might ideally.

And no, I wasn't nominating myself. I know that my membership here is a contentious issue among the staff. But there are other frequent posters that have the demeanor and remember the way things were and might agree to help.
 
A thought just crept in

Rich,
Is the board to busy for your current servers and you are trying to lighten the load?
Taking 10,000 and putting them in a different location, will that relieve the situation that has put you in a knot?:confused:

HQ
 
This may be one of the most amusing attacks it's ever been my pleasure to dismiss. Afraid of being "linked to something that might go wrong"? How can I be afraid, guy? Everything I do is in the light of day; with my own imprimatur attached. Stupid me, I know.
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Fascinating. Now you're getting paranoid. It wasn't an attack, it was a question based on your words: "...but this won't be a Sister Forum like THR. It'll have no affiliation". If you aren't concerned/worried/afraid/contemptuous why the desire to not be linked? It was a question you avoided answering, not an attack to be dismissed.

Check and Mate, as to my challenge. You now have a board of 37,000 offering you its blessing, plus all expenses paid for the next 24 months. Is it time to stop "talking about it" yet, or is the talking (and complaining) just a bit more comfortable.
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No Check Mate whatsoever. YOU have come up with an idea. Your board of "37,000"(only a relatively small percentage being currently active and some of those being the same people with multiple ID's{one legitimate reason for real names that you did not mention}as is the case with any board) has offered nothing and isn't likely to just because something popped in your head. As such, and for many other reasons, who knows if it is time to do anything at all.

STEP UP, DUDE. Stop kvetching about my "mood swings"
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It was an observation, and hardly my own. Whether you like it or not it is the current state of affairs.

and your accomplishments and your stalking woes;
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Let's try and address this rationally: You called something in to question, I replied. If you did not want an answer why throw the ad hom curveball? And activities and hobbies are not the same as accomplishments, now are they? "My" stalking woes, as you so compassionately phrase it, were provided as examples of the can of worms YOU would be opening up, for others and yourself. Your attitude is yet another good example to "kvetch" over regarding your attitude lately, though.

Time to make a public statement. Step Up and put your time where your words are, lest some accuse you of being a just another note in the cacophony of "Poor Me's".
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One, why would I care? Have you forgotten this is an internet forum? It's not "real", and nobody really gives a crap. It's a place to chat, one of many, and you'd do well to remember that is all it is. Second, I don't see anyone else jumping onboard so it appears your idea lacks merit.

Time will tell what?
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Whether anyone has any interest in pursuing your idea.

Time will tell that you'd rather stay here and have the Staff work according to your vision of TFL?
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Yes, that is exactly what I and everyone else has said and called for, isn't it?

Time for everyone to forget that you sidled by an offer for a PrePaid Instant Audience, so long as you agree to keep them off the streets?
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Wait, Rich, is this all about little ol' ME? But you said earlier to not take it so personal? Gee, I am so conflicted. ;) Nobody thinks I or anyone else is sidling past and, guess what, almost nobody will even remember this in a week or even just a few days... I don't rate the attention, nor do you, nor does the discussion in general.

You didn't answer my last question, 2nd. Answer THIS one: "Time will tell"....what, exactly?
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I most certainly did answer your last one, but apparently an answer that isn't what you want is no answer at all to you lately. So let me answer this one(again, also) so you can ignore that too: Time will tell if there's any interest and whether I have the time or energy to bother (since I don't have such an ego that I need a big ol' important gun forum to call my own) if there is AND whether anyone would want me to if I did. Right now it appears the former is a big fat no, while the latter is...unknown.
 
I guess I'll ask the obvious question; Why is 2nd arguing something that Rich already said wasn't going to fly, and why has he decided to hijack this tread from Handy?

Rich said, no mandatory real names. End of discussion, or so I would have thought.


And I'd also like to thank Rich and the other mods for doing their best to keep this place as highbrow as possible. They're pretty understanding, god knows they could've banned me once!
 
Umm, I didn't realize we were still mainly on that subject.

I can either reply when Rich asks/says something or I can ignore it(at which point I think we'd all hear about that). At this point I think I'd like to just ignore it but I seem to lack the capacity to not look.

So I guess the question, if it applies at all, would have to be "Why are Rich and 2nd both still arguing about a dead issue and why did they hijack the thread"? But since the issue now seems to be another forum(Rich's idea, not mine) I'd say your question kinda doesn't apply.
 
Since I don't have enough time right now to read everyone's post first, I'll put my two cents in then pickup on the debate from here.

The legal and political forum should be just that, legal and political. ANY legal topic, ANY political topic. No exceptions as far as abortion or sexual preference or religion. No topic should be taboo, AS LONG AS, it's about a political or legal standing, not just someone's off handed opinion of the subjects. It should have reference to a specific situation in law and politics. There shouldn't be anything considered too 'taboo'. But this should only apply to threads that can and do, remain in a civil and mature context. Posters who can't follow this simple concept should get no more than one, if that, warning before administrative action is taken. If it gets bad then staff has every right to close the thread.

This is not a democracy here at TFL. None of us pay to use this site, so Rich and any others who spend personal time and money to keep the site running have every right to do whatever they want. It's their way or the highway, and until there is a membership fee established, that's not going to change. Some of us may not like it, but noone is forced to be here. I think, in regards to almost every other forum on the web, this site is the most professionally maintained I have ever seen. And I consider myself lucky to be granted the right to participate.

Since Rich said he "preferred" his stance on screen names, there shouldn't have been a discussion on it. He wasn't pressing his views on the matter in any way. I would only suggest putting a suggestion in the forum rules to use discression and maturity in choosing a name if it's becoming a problem. Just my humble opinion.:cool:
 
Fascinating. Now you're getting paranoid. It wasn't an attack, it was a question based on your words: "...but this won't be a Sister Forum like THR. It'll have no affiliation". If you aren't concerned/worried/afraid/contemptuous why the desire to not be linked?
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Because he doesn't want to be associated with a board moderated in the manner he describes. He is only happy to establish such an extra board as a storm sewer to drain useless membership into. Didn't you not read the intent? It is a place for all those who don't like the way this board is run, and it is run that way to produce a quality atmosphere. Why would Rich wish to affiliate TFL with a board run for people undesireable to TFL?


I really don't understand the bone you're attempting to pick, here. Rich has already explained that his perceived "personality swing" is the outward manifestation of him taking personal responsibility for policy changes at TFL.



And your last comment, 2A, implying that Rich maintains this board out of ego, is so frankly insulting that you're about to find out how fair he actually is. Most people would just ban you for talking to their host that way, and no one would care.
 
GoSlash-
I've "skirted" nothing in this thread. If I stated that these subjects can be discussed calmly, I misspoke. In the context of Political Debate they inevitably devolve into vitriolic attack and base argument. I understand that you disagree and think these can be handled easily enough.

Are you, therefore, taking up the gauntlet and offering yourself to run a new Board where all topics are welcome? Or are you simply demanding that we allow such here and that our Staff be expected to moderate them.

Handy and Leif-
You both hit on a very real issue. Traditionally Members have policed these Forums along with Staff. In fact, to a large degree, they still do. However, the past year or so has seen TFL links at a number of fantasy gamer boards. This has attracted an enormous number of people who's interest in firearms is related only to make-believe lives. Many of the veteran Members are overwhelmed, as a result.

Harley-
Nope, no server or bandwith load problems.

2nd-
Thanks, I didn't think you'd step up. I hoped you would, though. Carry on. ;)
Rich
 
Feel free to correct me, but my observation of this thread is that it started out as a request for clarification on the rules, and has turned into Rich expressing his frustration -- "It's my ball: I don't mind sharing it, but damned if I'll be told how to play with it." Which I don't really see anyone here arguing back about. Rich, I don't know if you see it, but you do in fact sound a lot more emotional and frustrated over the forum lately, and not in an objective way but like it's really bugging you.
 
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