What is the L&P forum for?

H

Handy

Moderator
A decent debate on a proposed Constitution amendment and the meaning of "equal protection" was closed as not being appropriate for a firearms board.

A civil thread about government protection of medical professionals when they refuse service was closed as not being appropriate for a firearms board.


Yet:

The topic of legal/illegal immigration is given four different sticky threads, but had nothing specifically to do with firearms or the 2nd amendment.

Threads on police brutality or inappropriate behavior are left open, even when they have nothing specifically to do with firearms or the 2nd amendment.

Same with homeschooling, the life and films of Michael Moore, internet myths about communism, becoming a policeman, internet searches, UN mismanagement, life during Vietnam, etc.



I'm not peeved about it, but I think we all could use a little guideance. Is the L&P forum for "Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues." or is it about firearms related topics? From the above lists, I can't tell what the common denominator is. Threads about civil rights and general politics are closed while threads that are about none of that are ignored.

Could the moderators comment? It is a bit of a pain to involve oneself in a discussion that seems both topical and entirely civil just to have it cut off midstream. And if there is going to be a standard, it would be nice if all the junk was blocked, too.

Thank you,
Andrew
 
Handy-
Fair question.

- Our Mods do not move in lockstep fashion, though we have much interaction and the same vision. Each is granted pretty wide latitude for judgment calls and that's what gives each of these Forums its own "personality". The General Forum requires the subject to be about firearms. I've not generally enforced that rule for L&P and I'll let the rest of Staff respond as to their own standards.

- Apart from the Policies, we do have some unwritten, though well known, taboos in L&P...abortion debate, religious debate, gay debate. This is simply because these are not issues that lend themselves to factual, reasoned intercourse....they quickly devolve into personal attack.

That said, we have a bigger problem in L&P and TFL, in general. I'm talking about the large percentage of Kiddie Warriors, illiterates and plain angry white folk. TFL is not a ClubHowz and I, for one, am tired of seeing its standards reduced to the lowest common denominator. Fact of the matter is, would Staff agree, I'd start all over and require re-registration of Members using Real Names only; no anonymous email addies; actual identification required by fax. Unfortunately, the manpower task would be overwhelming. It would also cut the number of active members by 95%...and from what I see in '06, that should raise the Average IQ level around here by 30 points.

There, I'm finally out of the closet as being 100% dedicated to intelligent, articulate discourse amongst people who have no felt need to hide behind Kewl Handles, Anime Signatures and Long Lists of Guns They Never Owned displayed in every post (to name but a few of the possible tipoffs).

In short....I'm on a Personal Mission. Whether this becomes a Staff wide mission is up to the other Moderators with final say by Marko.

Time we come face-to-face with this. If any of our valued Members (or even some of the Kiddie Warriors, illiterates and plain angry white folk) wish to take issue with my position, let's clear the air right now.
Rich
 
Rich,

Your taboo topics answered my question. The two threads I mentioned were not ABOUT homosexuality or abortion, but were eventually part of the discussion. I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to specify some topics as taboo right off the bat instead of closing threads as soon whatever rears its head?


As to going with real registration, that would be a shame, as many of us who move around a lot don't have non-anonymous email. It simply is too hard to get anything done when you deploy and are unable to get at a home email server, but Yahoo and Hotmail can be got to anywhere on earth. So I can't post or even search AR-15.com because of it.

Plus, the guy with the Kewl Handle might be the Stephen Camp of tomorrow. This forum serves to educate, and it is going to do much less of that when it isn't so easy to join. I'd rather put up with some nonsense than put up with "moderation" as found on Sigforum.
 
I do not understand the negative focus on online "handles" or screen names. I've been engaged in online discussion since I had to download BBS mail over Fidonet onto my PC XT, and nicknames have been a part of web "culture" since day one. On a personal level, I have no problem sharing my particulars with forum administrators via the registration process, but many of us do not wish to have every person, bot, or phisher having that info. I personally know people who have been hassled by employers because someone found their LiveJournal or MySpace accounts. One person of my acquaintance may have lost an election (Lt. Governor, I won't say which state), because someone working for his opponent found his LiveJournal account and made hay out of his personal religious beliefs. I believe in limited anonymity online, and recommend against barring the use of screen monikers.

I would also second Handy's comments on the use of email systems, this time less for anonymity as for practicality. In the time since I first signed onto this board almost 4 years ago, my home email address has changed half a dozen times with moves, changes of carrier, and changes of account name as one fills up with spam. This whole time, my Hotmail account has remained the same -- partly because I deliberately set it up to be my public facing address and don't care about spam there, and partly because it remains stable even through my moves and such.

(Edited: minor edits for clarity and punctuation)
 
First off, I only stated that I prefer Real Names and Real Email to their anonymous counterparts. Secondly, I never stated that possession of a "handle" or yahoo account is prima facia evidence that you're a twinkie.

What I did state is that both lend a certain degree of credibility, credibility which both dev-null and Handy have built over time. So, these are not requirements, IMHO.

As to educating the younger crowd...that is one of TFL's Missions, so long as they act like adults. For those who bounce back and forth from TFL to the CounterStrike Forums, there are better alternatives to TFL.
Rich
 
Interesting recent fixation on usernames.

Since I've attached my name in my sig line I'll throw this at ya without fear of any legit rebuttal: Some people are concerned about plopping their real name all over the net because there are some real freaks out there. 10 years ago(give or take) I got started on boards and one of the first things to happen to me was a screaming leftist took a dislike to my views.

He got, based on my use of my real name(users even then told me I was insane to post my real name), my phone #, address, the name of my wife, kids, business, ex-wife, and I don't remember what all else. Then he began to make threats and do other things until he drove me right out of posting anywhere. But I finally came back, with a different IP and the username I have used here since Day 1.

Last month a crazy leftist from New Zealand managed to dig up my pic and post it and create an offensive atavar of it, even without my real name. He got that, too... He put two and two together across several forums. Crazy, but smart. Of course I am older now and don't really give a flying rats ass but the point remains: There are some nuts out there who will do some bizarre things.

So, do you want to be responsible for what might happen to some poor SOB because of this insistance everyone stick their name to the pointless babble they produce on a pointless chat site? Do you actually have a right to insist people expose themselves to something like that, unlikely as it (supposedly) is? Your call, of course.

As for the "award", that reflects worse on the site than any number of armchair commandos. The commandos are just written off for what they are, while the "award" reflects the attitude and maturity of the site itself. But hey, that's just me and I don't have any experience at this, ya know.
 
Just send in some hair that is sufficent.

God forgive me for I love it so (George "Patton" C. Scott).
"Bat Guano" if that is your name! (Dr. Strangelove) :D

HQ:cool:
 
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Fact of the matter is, would Staff agree, I'd start all over and require re-registration of Members using Real Names only; no anonymous email addies; actual identification required by fax.
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The point is, of course, making people think about their real-life reputation every time they post. I think that is unwise for several reasons:

Most "real" names are not unique. Without some combination of city/state/birthdate/address, a "Real Name" cannot really be tied to a real person. If it can be, that leads to the potential for harassment by people who disagree with opinions stated online, as 2nd amendment pointed out.

Reputation only means something if people know each other... the people on TFL who know each other in real life almost all (I'm sure) know each other's real names.

Online pseudonyms _do_ carry reputation, and that's the only reputation that matters in this context.

IDs good enough to be faxed or emailed can be faked in 10 minutes in photoshop. (Enlisting a LEO staff member's assistance in verifying IDs would be possible, but not ethical, and LE agencies wouldn't tolerate it if such abuse of police resources were brought to light.)

As dev_null pointed out (somwhat inverse to 2nd amendment's complaint), any advantage of (trying to) tie real-world reputation to online persona is eclipsed by the negative consequences of enabling others to readily find out what your other interests are. Someone on a PTA wouldn't want his/her associates to be able to find out, through a simple google search, that he/she owns scary-looking semi-auto rifles, hates Hillary, and supports abortion.


Accordingly, I respectfully dissent, and will quit TFL if this ever comes to pass.
 
If posting for any length of time

You are owned by your post's. History is just that, sometimes it gets out of hand and the moderators make the call. No biggie. This is a very fair forum.
IMHO.

HQ
 
2nd-
What I stated was this:
First off, I only stated that I prefer Real Names and Real Email to their anonymous counterparts.
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Is there a part of that which needs further explanation?

I find it funny how people can take a Free Service and develop a sense of birthright that they should be allowed to use it on their own terms. Last I checked, this was a Private Board. Last I checked, I pay for this service and Staff puts in the voluntary effort to make it work. Seems to me we have a bit of a right to set the rules and revoke the invites.

Seems to me, the last time some Twinkie visited here for the first and last time, 24 hours before he attempted murder and committed suicide, the investigative heat came down on me and this Staff.

Seems to me, the last time a Twinkie decided he was gonna do something about our Rules, he reported an LEO Staff Member here to his department for "misuse of public equipment". That was lots of fun for the Staff Member involved.

So, please....don't feel it's all about you. ;)
Rich
 
First off, I only stated that I prefer Real Names and Real Email to their anonymous counterparts.
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Which, roughly, translates into preferring they accept repercussions if people they know in real life find out about their opinions on the board, and preferring they be available to stalkers/harassers who notice certain online opinions and decide to "get in touch with" the flesh&blood author.

Seems to me, the last time some Twinkie visited here for the first and last time, 24 hours before he committed murder and suicide, the investigative heat came down on me and this Staff.
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Pseudonyms affect this how?

If he had used his real name, it wouldn't have affected legal consequences, but it might have drawn slightly more attention, and not necessarily good attention, to TFL.

Seems to me, the last time a Twinkie decided he was gonna do something about our Rules, he reported an LEO Staff Member here to his department for "misuse of public equipment". That was lots of fun for the Staff Member involved.
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That is exactly the kind of thing that is mitigated by allowing/encouraging non-juvenile pseudonyms.
 
Rich, don't misunderstand. I think it's probably safe to say that anyone who posts to this thread (well, most anyone perhaps) has some understanding of, and a great deal of appreciation for, the service you run here. Some of us have, as noted, been involved in online communities for some time, and have built, run, and/or moderated elists, forums, BBSes, and listservs, and know what a thankless task it can be.

I know you didn't post that just for strokes, but thought I'd mention it anyway.
 
Just so I have this straight:
Some of the community cannot be trusted to discuss these topics in an adult, rational manner....so we just ban them from discussion by the entire community?

Funny how much this parallels the whole "gun control" debate :rolleyes:
 
"Some of the community cannot be trusted to discuss these topics in an adult, rational manner....so we just ban them from discussion by the entire community?"

Unfortunately, and based on my 6+ years here, NO ONE can be trusted to discuss these topics in an adult, rational manner.

No one.
 
An interesting question ... sticky perhaps?

I've entertained, though not voiced, thoughts and concerns similar to those voiced by Handy in his original post at times. However, the description of L&P is expansive, so I also can see why threads that have little to do with either firearms or legal and political issues related to firearms remain open and viable.

I think part of the issue stems from the fact that being a public site, TFL will attract 'Twinkies', regardless of whether or not they are wanted. Some will stay and move into non-Twinkie status, some will stay and perpetually prove their Twinkiness, some will depart to Twink in greener pastures, and some will Twink too hard here and get the creamy filling squashed out of them. Short of charging to register and post, or spending an inordinate time and resources on reviewing applicants for registration, this will happen. This is not unique to L&P; Twinkies can be found elsewhere on TFL.

Part of the issue, with specific regard to L&P, is that some of the disagreements and debates that descend into bickering and lockdown result from a clash between people who hold rigid, absolutist worldviews (left or right) and those who don't. However, there really isn't any concrete way of resolving that conflict, other than to monitor the situation and hope that both parties will keep the discussion civil and on-topic (and squash the creamy filling out of them when they don't). Certain topics just aren't going to be productive from birth.

I don't know, I can't think of anything particularly intelligent or insightful to add at the moment. I suppose if the mission of this section of the site is unclear to some, maybe a sticky reminding people of the rules is in order; seems childish, but may be necessary. I do appreciate everybody's efforts to keep this place running.

Regards,

Ian (and that's as much of my real name as you're getting in this post!) :p
 
The purpose of L&P forum is a slightly vague description for a very good reason:

It cannot be itemized in such a way to cover each and every topic open for discussion. It does not have a catch all like General Discussion (i.e., threads must be firearms related).

If there's a discussion you wish to have after a thread is closed, there's always PM or email. If one requires the repartee to remain public, one should investigate one’s motives for partaking in the discussion. Is it to grandstand, or to have meaningful discussion, because the latter can be enjoyed via PM or email just as well.

In an atmosphere where we know the mods do their best to remain fair and balanced in their decisions, maybe we can cut them a little slack instead of always expecting the slack to flow in the other direction.
 
Actually, if you go back and look through threads of this type, you'll find that I rarely get involved in them, WA.

I have in the past gotten involved in several Christian v. Muslim threads, but have tried to limit my comments to historic context only, but have not always been successful in either sticking to historic context or holding my temper.

So now I try to avoid such threads. Most of the recent crop I've not even bothered to open, much less read.
 
Maybe the Legal and Political forum should be firearms related only. Everywhere else here is. I know I come here to read about firearms, and ignore most everything else.

I find that alot of the "everything else" posts irritate me. Because I believe that it is the other guy's right to be irritating to me as much as it is my right to be irritated with him, I ignore it.

It's why I try not to get in legal or political discussions in real life. It's just not worth the headache...
 
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