Cumminspwrd02
New member
In my 870 I have 7 shots of 2 3/4 00 buck w/ 5 extra in the holder on the stock. If that doesn't take the BG down then i have 6 shots in a colt cobra .38 special.
what does everyone use in there HD shotgun?
- Thread starter therealtwitch
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Edward429451
Moderator
Fair enough.
The discussion was HD so any collateral damage to innocent life would most likely be family, so I took it as a given that one would not speak of his family like that, and that he meant the structure!
Killoften, the databases show that slugs and 00 have the same percentage of one shot stops.
99%.
00 does penetrate less. Most folks think that's good.
I've shot enough deer with slugs to know they can leave the target and wreak harm elsewhere.
As for birdshot, it works as well when used close enough. That seems to be less than ten yards.
Close enough with 00 is more like 25 yards.
Definition: Close enough means all pellets in the target. For HD use, about 15" max.
The trouble is, we cannot predict the distance of the next firefight. If the action moves outside, it may not be feasible to empty the magazine and recharge with 00 or slugs.
Mostly 00 is used here, but one shotgun posted where shot opps will be close and parallel to the ground AT ground level has 4 buck in it. Any likely crisis management with that one will see the shot still in the cup at terminus.
There's no "One Size Fits All" approach to ammo selection. Proper selection takes time, effort, thought and a patterning board.
Dismounting from pulpit....
99%.
00 does penetrate less. Most folks think that's good.
I've shot enough deer with slugs to know they can leave the target and wreak harm elsewhere.
As for birdshot, it works as well when used close enough. That seems to be less than ten yards.
Close enough with 00 is more like 25 yards.
Definition: Close enough means all pellets in the target. For HD use, about 15" max.
The trouble is, we cannot predict the distance of the next firefight. If the action moves outside, it may not be feasible to empty the magazine and recharge with 00 or slugs.
Mostly 00 is used here, but one shotgun posted where shot opps will be close and parallel to the ground AT ground level has 4 buck in it. Any likely crisis management with that one will see the shot still in the cup at terminus.
There's no "One Size Fits All" approach to ammo selection. Proper selection takes time, effort, thought and a patterning board.
Dismounting from pulpit....
ACTUALLY If you cannot guarantee 9 inches of penetration in the human body, you can keep it! I prefer to look for 12 inches! I feel I am pushing my luck by expecting my #3 buck from my 20 gauge to do the job so I have practiced "TAP PUMP TAP" with a slight rise of the muzzle on the second round from the first.
That ought to do the trick for all but the tuffest thug. For him I have the .30-30 in the closet with 6 170 grainers.
Brent
That ought to do the trick for all but the tuffest thug. For him I have the .30-30 in the closet with 6 170 grainers.
Brent
inSight-NEO
New member
I agree...to a point. What I mean is, in using OO Buck (in my case, Im speaking of the lower velocity "low recoil" version) vs. using slugs, you really arent losing much in terms of "stopping power," IMHO. However, what you are giving up is unnecessary penetration, even if the BG is wearing thick winter gear. This is why I use low-recoil 00 Buck. Now, is it penetrative? Sure. But, given its more limited velocity ratings vs. "standard" 00 Buck or slugs, Id say it provides a nice mix of stopping power + lower penetration, without going to birdshot.
So sure, using an "effective" weapon is desireable, but why not try to maintain maximum stopping power while somewhat limiting overpenetration? Its kinda like comparing the full-house 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum load to the .45 ACP JHP load. Both are about equal in terms of stopping power, but one is certainly more penetrative than the other. In this case, its the .45 ACP for me.
Just something to think about.
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Guy,
Not to play "what if's" but... Are we so sure he's going to be standing chest to chest with you? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?
A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on. And so, I don't know, these things may or may not ever happen in our entire lives and we're susposed to guess how it's gonna go down? Obvisly it's likly to be a very caotic event with all kinds of hollywood jumps and dives. (Perhaps:rolleyes
Does your bird shot penatrate these things, and then, "pretty much turn him to sausage?" lol
We HAVE, MUST, assume all the possible worst. Even though it's highly unlikly to ever match your imagination I'm still ready for whatever. And by whatever I mean whatever he choices to use for cover. Keep that in mind when you tell me you prefer shot and over penatration is the enemy.
And for all you bird shot guys... How come your not loading your own shells with sand? Or flour? Same weight more "energy dump"
Not to play "what if's" but... Are we so sure he's going to be standing chest to chest with you? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?
A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on. And so, I don't know, these things may or may not ever happen in our entire lives and we're susposed to guess how it's gonna go down? Obvisly it's likly to be a very caotic event with all kinds of hollywood jumps and dives. (Perhaps:rolleyes
Does your bird shot penatrate these things, and then, "pretty much turn him to sausage?" lol We HAVE, MUST, assume all the possible worst. Even though it's highly unlikly to ever match your imagination I'm still ready for whatever. And by whatever I mean whatever he choices to use for cover. Keep that in mind when you tell me you prefer shot and over penatration is the enemy.
And for all you bird shot guys... How come your not loading your own shells with sand? Or flour? Same weight more "energy dump"
inSight-NEO
New member
Ok...first off, Im not a huge fan of birdshot for primary HD use..lets get that right out of the way. Second, out of the 6 or so scenarios you listed, 00 Buck could deal with at least 4 of them (the fourth being the safe room door...let them beat it down; when they enter...well, you get the idea). Besides, you should be behind cover as well....and waiting. But, then again, Im not the "search and destroy" type. Rather, Im more of the "sit, wait and surprise" type.
Either way, it sounds to me like you need to skip the SG alltogether and get either the S&W Model 500 revolver or a high power rifle if conquering any and all barriers is of utmost importance.
For now, however, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.
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LanceOregon
Moderator
No, that is not at all true. Your list could not possibly go on, as it itself is ridiculously illogical.
The home invader is going to hide behind your kitchen refrigerator? How on earth is he possibly going to do that??? Do you keep all of your valuables in your refrigerator? That scenario is improbable in the extreme.
And he is going to be wearing a Bullet Proof vest? My goodness, this is getting more outlandish yet. No Buckshot load is going to penetrate a good BP vest, anyway. So what is your point of even mentioning that?
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killoften, don't be ridiculous with your sand and flour.
Yes, slugs would mean you could shoot through furniture, but why stop there? What if the bad guy is wearing a vest? Clearly, we shouldn't use anything shy of a .50 BMG round for home defense.
However, the fact is that even in the already unlikely scenario of a home defense situation, 99% of us are only ever going to fire on someone who is in the clear and presenting a threat to us.
Yes, slugs would mean you could shoot through furniture, but why stop there? What if the bad guy is wearing a vest? Clearly, we shouldn't use anything shy of a .50 BMG round for home defense.
However, the fact is that even in the already unlikely scenario of a home defense situation, 99% of us are only ever going to fire on someone who is in the clear and presenting a threat to us.
Unless he pulls the couch away from the wall or the refrigerator or freezer out from the built in cubby holes they are in He won't be hiding behind them in my house and I have an open floor plan from my kitchen door to the back of the house where my brothers bedroom is. My bedroom is in the middle of the house and the longest reasonable shot I can expect is 24' or 8 yards.
My choice of #4 shot wasn't made on a whim but on big enough to do the job and light enough to not be tearing up my house and endangering anybody in the house I don't want shot. Every situation is different, most houses and furniture placement will be different but not substantially from mine. You may have a 40' shot or at the most a 15' shot, you may be the only person there and your windows are bullet proof and your walls made out of hardened concrete so your neighbors aren't a factor.
There is no one rule covers all situations and I won't flame somebody for using 3 1/2" 10 gauge with 00 buck or a 410 loaded in a Judge if that's what they have. A 22 rifle in the hands of a marksman is a deadly weapon, but to flame somebody because he isn't shooting what you consider optimum or at least adequate shows either lack of maturity or real life experience.
Some of us have been there done that and we don't need a keyboard Kommando parroting the latest hot load or hot bullet from the latest issue of 'Killer Gremlins on the Warpath' magazine.
Ok young ones, continue flaming and ranting this dinosaur is enjoying your testosterone based chest thumping.
My choice of #4 shot wasn't made on a whim but on big enough to do the job and light enough to not be tearing up my house and endangering anybody in the house I don't want shot. Every situation is different, most houses and furniture placement will be different but not substantially from mine. You may have a 40' shot or at the most a 15' shot, you may be the only person there and your windows are bullet proof and your walls made out of hardened concrete so your neighbors aren't a factor.
There is no one rule covers all situations and I won't flame somebody for using 3 1/2" 10 gauge with 00 buck or a 410 loaded in a Judge if that's what they have. A 22 rifle in the hands of a marksman is a deadly weapon, but to flame somebody because he isn't shooting what you consider optimum or at least adequate shows either lack of maturity or real life experience.
Some of us have been there done that and we don't need a keyboard Kommando parroting the latest hot load or hot bullet from the latest issue of 'Killer Gremlins on the Warpath' magazine.
Ok young ones, continue flaming and ranting this dinosaur is enjoying your testosterone based chest thumping.
Why use a shotgun loaded with slugs if you could use a rifle loaded with thirty rounds of 7.62x39 or twenty rounds of .308? If you don't really care about over penetration, why would you handicap youself with a shotgun shooting a single slug and have a smaller capacity? Doesn't make much sense to me.
krazykelley
Inactive
9 rounds of #4 2 3/4" buckshot in my Franchi SAS 12. Sometimes the Franchi is complemented by a S&W, Charter Arms, or Tanfoglio in the nightstand or the Vector propped up next to it on the wall.
SgtMeatballs
New member
Personally i have 1 round of birdshot, loaded up to be rd#1 and then 3 3'' 00 buckshot afterwards. The first round is my way of saying "Hey, did that hurt? good now get out of here!" The next are my exciting party favors.
Escalation of force is necessary in my opinion.
Escalation of force is necessary in my opinion.
SgtMeatballs, if you want a non-lethal first round, I strongly suggest rubber buckshot or a baton round or something. At home defense ranges, birdshot is extremely lethal.
That said, I hope everyone here remembers that once you've discharged a firearm--no matter what's in it--it's considered to be the use of lethal force, so it doesn't matter if you're firing at somebody with no intent to kill. All the usual self defense rules apply.
That said, I hope everyone here remembers that once you've discharged a firearm--no matter what's in it--it's considered to be the use of lethal force, so it doesn't matter if you're firing at somebody with no intent to kill. All the usual self defense rules apply.
legally it may be lethal force no matter what is in the shotgun, but the way i think of it, if i was on a jury listening to someone who did everything they could before killing someone, it would sound alot better to me, and most people than if you just came straight out with buck, or a slug or anything else really. it all relies on the jury
Actually, no.
Birdshot is lethal force. If you were using what you thought would be a non-lethal round, you are effectively saying that you didn't think that the situation justified deadly force. But, in fact, you were using deadly force. In other words, you were using deadly force when it was not justified.
Certainly from a legal standpoint using non-lethal force first can be an advantage. But you really have to be using non-lethal force -- like command voice, open hand, OC spray. Birdshot simply is not non-lethal force, and telling the jury that you thought it was (even if it didn't kill the perp) is likely to leave you in more hot water, not less.
You can't shoot someone gently. So don't try. If you are not justified in shooting at them, then don't, no matter what ammunition you have in your gun.